Should WOTC exchange the old minis for new

[NorthernRommel]

Okay folks I am gonna try this one more time since the last time is was closed down. I will even keep it more simple so that it not confused with any other thread. If this one is cut then we know the company is doing it on purpose to keep gamer opinion buried.

In short -- do you think that WOTC need to create a reasonable exchange (one for one) program of some kind to compensate the older players of the game by letting them trade in their old minis for new ones.

[SgtFury]

No, I don't think WotC needs to or should have to offer any type of vehicle figure exchange program. Nor is there any legal reason that they would be obligated to do so.

In my opinion, if you don't like the old figures just sell them on Ebay. Then use your profits to buy a different game or the new 15 mm scaled figures in the next boosters.

I'm sure someone who plays with AAM figures either knows a lawyer or is one. Perhaps their legal opinion would be interesting to hear. I bet they would tell you that WotC is under no legal obligation to offer an exchange program.

[Lotus]

This is my repost from the other thread. It still stands. And I voted "No."

You know what's odd about this? Everyone here has gotten use...fun actually out of their minis. They're used. You've probably had them for years.

Now you want a refund? Or a trade in?

If the company pulled the plug today, ended production of the game entirely, would you ask for either?

If your answer is no, then why would you think that because they are moving on in a different direction, that it somehow is actually different for those who choose not to follow?

[NorthernRommel]

This isn't about legal issues. This is about their ethical responsibility to their customers. Either way -- if the poll is allowed to stay up I think we should wait a week to see what the customer base thinks. That will be the better answer.

[Cpt. John Miller]

This is a business decision. Profits rule. They will never do anything like this.

[panzerpainter]

I had to vote NO. I have had my hands on around 10,000 A&A minis now, and I have not yet kept any for myself. Its all business, buying, repainting, and reselling. If people decided later that they didnt want one of my camo painted sand colored PzIII's, but rather now they wanted my new improved grey Panzer III with camo, and requested a send-in exchange, I would be out of business in 1 week. Its just impractical.
NOTE: By adding "it doesnt matter" after the word "NO", it makes it sound as if anyone who votes no is apethetic. I do feel it DOES matter, and perhaps 3 of 4 voting options would better show peoples real feelings.

[Moderator Kayn]

:D (why do I feel like I'm typing the same words over and over?)

As stated on the Goodbye thread, on the former trade poll, on the former Scale change thread, and possibly others :

In order to keep the Scale discussion in one area, we are closing the other scale threads/polls and asking you to post on the A&A Minis 1939-45 Starter Set Update thread here.

The discussion needs to be in one area so that Mike can keep interjecting reasonable explanation and perspective and so that people coming to the forum for info won't have to guess which thread has WotC's responses.
Also on the Thread Closing thread:

There's no censoring of discussions to it. There is no attempt to bury discussions. We're just asking you to use the one thread so that people can be in the same conversation, and to save the same thing being said over and over in more than one thread.

Some topics are relevant but also different enough to warrent a separate thread - and those are still open. The problem with this.. is that someone will probably jump onto to those threads as well and repeat exactly what they've posted on the Update discussion thread.

Anyway, please dont start seeing conspiracy where there is none. Just trying to do my job here, keeping the forums readable for everyone.


I am! I am!... using the same words over and over again. :eek:

Honestly, if it begins to be a repetition of what we're reading on the other threads, it'll be closed. If not... then it can stay.

Mod Kayn

[J.L.Robert]

Again, not enough options. This is not a black and white subject.

I wouldn't vote for either option provided, but WOULD vote for either of these:

Yes, but with some redemption program (include a nominal fee OR a UPC code from a 1939-1945 or later set for "x" number of figures).

No, it's too impractical/expensive, and would result in higher prices down the road.

[Lotus]

:D (why do I feel like I'm typing the same words over and over?)

As stated on the Goodbye thread, on the former trade poll, on the former Scale change thread, and possibly others :

In order to keep the Scale discussion in one area, we are closing the other scale threads/polls and asking you to post on the A&A Minis 1939-45 Starter Set Update thread here.

The discussion needs to be in one area so that Mike can keep interjecting reasonable explanation and perspective and so that people coming to the forum for info won't have to guess which thread has WotC's responses.
Also on the Thread Closing thread:

There's no censoring of discussions to it. There is no attempt to bury discussions. We're just asking you to use the one thread so that people can be in the same conversation, and to save the same thing being said over and over in more than one thread.

Some topics are relevant but also different enough to warrent a separate thread - and those are still open. The problem with this.. is that someone will probably jump onto to those threads as well and repeat exactly what they've posted on the Update discussion thread.

Anyway, please dont start seeing conspiracy where there is none. Just trying to do my job here, keeping the forums readable for everyone.


I am! I am!... using the same words over and over again. :eek:

Honestly, if it begins to be a repetition of what we're reading on the other threads, it'll be closed. If not... then it can stay.

Mod Kayn

Your restraint is commendable.

[NorthernRommel]

Okay folks keep this thread for votes and only short comments.

Place anything more then a couple lines in another thread to keep the mods happy.

[horacus]

Ok, I say no. We decided to buy, an knew there were risks...

[malcolm_river]

Sorry, but this is a non-issue. Wow, they are changing the size of minis to something a bit bigger. Get over it.

[Oddball]

I'm afraid I'm a no, as well. I just don't see WotC going down that money trail..it would cost a ton. I looked at my Hellcats today, which I believe I saw on another thread as representing the approximate re-scale size...it's not that bad guys. :)

[Rick]

I voted no as well. "Size matters not." says master Yoda. :-) Seriously, I can see if someone is REALLY all that hung up on the asthetics, but, I don't think any of us really play the game because, well the game pieces are pretty. It's not about the look, but the GAME, meaning the tactics, the flow, the history, the give and take of the game that the dice add to it all.

IF we were to insist on a 'refund', what would that give us, but higher prices, less new pieces, new maps, because they would have to recoup their costs somehow. New designs cost money. New art work costs. It has to come from somewhere. Besides, as the costs rise, WotC is slowly cutting itself off from the lower age range of the market. As it stands now, it will cost someone a few hundred dollars to field a decent well rounded army of one nationality. That price is too steep a price for most teens in my area to pay. If this game it to have a life, it has to be affordable.

[ShotGun Jolly]

I posted most of this in another thread, and then read this one. So I figured I place my thoughts on what they could do.

I Voted "NO", sure it would be nice. And if they did I would surely send in the ones I wanted replaced. But I just dont see it happening. If they did, It would be one of the rare times it happens.


If they are going to do this scale change, which they are. They should do it in a way to help a person get more of the units they want to replace. I need russian tanks, seeing I hardly own any. ie. They should offer a Russian Booster set, which offers mainly Russian vehicles.

Cause I am gonna hate the idea of buying a new booster set and getting another Sherman.

or

Perhaps a online sale where you can get themed sets ... and you can pick 1 rare, 2 uncommons, and 3 commons of your choice/theme. I just dont have the cash now to go out and start all over again to get the units replaced. If they do something like this, I could at least get more of the stuff i wanted, and less of the stuff i didnt.

If they do something like that, for me, that would go along way in making me less peeved at the whole scale change.

This would (in my mind) work better then a mini's exchange program. Which I just dont see any company doing.

[Khayman7]

This is my repost from the other thread. It still stands. And I voted "No."

You know what's odd about this? Everyone here has gotten use...fun actually out of their minis. They're used. You've probably had them for years.

Now you want a refund? Or a trade in?

If the company pulled the plug today, ended production of the game entirely, would you ask for either?

If your answer is no, then why would you think that because they are moving on in a different direction, that it somehow is actually different for those who choose not to follow?

As much as I love the idea of getting free new stuff, it won't happen. Good points here Lotus.

I just hope that if there are changes to cards they allow us to download the new ones and print them out instead of buying to get those too. That would be another boot to the rear end.

[agent_black]

no. to ask so is just plain stupid.

[GDA-Kel]

***NOTE*** This is a repost of a note I directed at Gamer Zero in another thread.

I'd like to comment on the recent announcement about a scale change to vehicles, and to ask that you consider an idea of mine.

For me personally, and (I suspect) for many other owners of AAM, the following statements are true:

1. I do not play in tournaments, so I do not care what is 'legal' or not in this setting.

2. I do not collect AAM with the idea of making money, or my collection appreciating in value.

3. I play AAM because I have neither the time, nor the space, to play a more detailed and 'historically accurate' miniature WW2 game, such as micro-armor or FOW.

4. Even with some mis-scaled mini's, and the simplistic hex maps, the game is still visually appealing. This is an important aspect of the game for me, as I find your playing pieces and game system (in general) provides me with good entertainment for my investment.

5. Your statement that the old mini's are still viable pieces and are perfectly compatible with the new scale (within the rules of the game) is not really relevant to me. The scale difference is great enough for me that I will not mix the two unit scales. I suspect this is true of a large portion of your customer base as well. If scale didn't matter to me, then I would be using World Tank Museum or Can.do (Takara) miniatures. Their tanks are much better detailed, painted, and cheaper than AAM tanks. However, they are also much smaller than AAM tanks. That's a show-stopper for me.

6. From reading your statements so far, the only recourse for AAM owners like me are: (1) stick with the old scale units only, (2) mix the scales and try my best to ignore the visually unappealing scale differences, (3) or buy all new scaled vehicles and do whatever with my old scaled vehicles.

Let me digress for a moment and ask a simple question. How much is good customer service worth to a companies bottom line? 0.05$ per share in earnings? 0.10$? The answer is you can't put a dollar value on this very nebulous concept. I know. I have worked for a Fortune 500 Consumer Electronics company for 11 years. For 11 years we have tried very hard to quantify 'Good Customer Service' in order to decide how much to spend on it. We're still trying.

How much is good customer service worth to WoTC? How much are you willing to spend on 'Good Customer Service?' Several folks on these boards have asked for some kind of miniature trade-in program. From reading other posts, I gather something like this has never been done in this industry before. What if you could provide all AAM owners like me with 'Good Customer Service' at no cost to the companies bottome line? Would you do it? What would you expect to get in return? How about a happy AAM owner who will continue to support the game? How about a happy AAM owner who will advertise AAM by word of mouth to other like-minded miniature gamers? How about a ton of positive press for your company for doing something that would be ground breaking for your industry?

Here's how:

1. Hire some temps and set them up in a room somewhere at your HQ.
2. Offer a mini trade in program. Old scale units for the same units in the new scale.
3. The Customer (me) pays shipping both ways.
4. The Customer (me again) pays a nominal fee to cover the cost of the mini plus all labor costs (for processing all the units/cards) incurred by WoTC. $2.00 per mini sounds like about the right price to me.

Most Executives will simply dismiss this idea as being too costly with very little return for the company for the simple reason that they cannot measure the ROI on 'Good Customer Service.'

Someone at WoTC has to take ownership of this idea and sell it to the suits. To find out how much this might matter to your customers, simply ask your AAM developers and testers. I'm sure they all have large AAM collections. Ask them how they would like to mix the scales and fight battles with 'mama tiger and her tiger cubs.' If they're honest, I suspect they would say the mixed scales really detract from the game.

Can this be done? Anything is possible. If you personally believe this would be a GREAT thing for WoTC to do to provide 'Good Customer Service' then I urge you to bring it up in your daily/weekly status meetings with your bosses. They'll probably dismiss it out of hand. Don't give up. Keep pressing. We'll start a poll in the forums to get our opinion. Ask some of your local Game Shop owners their opinions. I firmly believe this is worth doing.

Thanks for listening...

Kel

[Richter von Manthofen]

I voted yes as the question is not: will they...

As customer I really want them replaced, but its not likely to happen...

[Tico303]

I voted yes as the question is not: will they...

As customer I really want them replaced, but its not likely to happen...

Same here. If someone decides to turn WotC into a charity organization i'd love to get a trade-in ;)

[Volorkey]

Let me ask the question: What does a Mini do? Answer: It represents the forces and units positions' on the field. That's what they do they represent. We could use almost anything for this we could even write "Tiger I" on a slip of paper and move that around the board. So what if your HellCat is to big or your 3" gun is too small, they do the same job if they are the correct scale or not. Now some people may see it as a bigger deal than me but I personally don't care much the few scale mistakes so far have not been a very big deal and as far as the scale change... that Tiger I mini is in that hex if it is 15mm or any other size.
That's my two cents.

[Harold76]

A smart entrepreneur could have the idea to go out, buy a huge number of the new set, then start their own trade-in (for profit) program. If I had the seed money for such a venture, I might consider it for myself.

[ShotGun Jolly]

I voted yes as the question is not: will they...



You are right about that.. I should have thought about it closer when i voted.... Then yes.. They should. to bad I cant retract my vote.

[MEX10MM]

Voted No, this is why:
I bought a car, I used it for a couple of happy years then the dammed car
company put out a new model, faster, more equiped, more "modern looking", saves gas too! I never thought about going to the car dealer and asking him to exchange this car for the newer model; not even because I had paid a lot of money for the old one! :confused:
My car looks silly next to the new model. :eek:

:D :D

[Tico303]

Let me ask the question: What does a Mini do? Answer: It represents the forces and units positions' on the field. That's what they do they represent. We could use almost anything for this we could even write "Tiger I" on a slip of paper and move that around the board. So what if your HellCat is to big or your 3" gun is too small, they do the same job if they are the correct scale or not. Now some people may see it as a bigger deal than me but I personally don't care much the few scale mistakes so far have not been a very big deal and as far as the scale change... that Tiger I mini is in that hex if it is 15mm or any other size.
That's my two cents.

I disagree. Why should I buy a miniatures game if I could use some slips of paper? Just for the rules? Probably not. Miniatures should be more or less on scale, not 100% perfect but without glitches like the ones you just mentioned.

If you really don't care, we could trade my old all-kinds-off-scale minis against your new to-scale-ones ;)

[grizzlybear]

well you use your slips of paper units i'll use my flamethrower units and a bic

[NorthernRommel]

Well thanks to all who responded. We gave it a week, which should be enough for most polls.

I have to say I am a little surprised at some who voted NO, but that is your personal choice. Still the numbers represented clearly show a high number of the average community agrees with me that some kind of exchange program should be set up (granted not a majority support - but still).

Its a shame WOTC shot themselves in the foot -- but there it is.

Cheers folks.

[Kaufschtick]

Well thanks to all who responded. We gave it a week, which should be enough for most polls.

I have to say I am a little surprised at some who voted NO, but that is your personal choice. Still the numbers represented clearly show a high number of the average community agrees with me that some kind of exchange program should be set up (granted not a majority support - but still).

Its a shame WOTC shot themselves in the foot -- but there it is.

Cheers folks.

You should have done this as a "public poll". Then we'd get to see who voted what.

[Greenosaur]

As someone very new to the game, and learning from the awesome folks on here, i guess my opinion doesnt really matter! I did take the boys and go watch some folks play last night. I seen a a FOW tank next to a A&AM tank. I guess its pretty noticable,(least tween them). knowing the vehicles and there abilites dont change,(correct?). I can see how some wont like it, if they field alot a few tanks and they look mismatched. With that said, it doesnt change the game, and i gotta admitt, last night looked just......awesome!! Cant wait to go to another local gameing shop where they actually hold tournies.
All companies do it eventually, they are after that dollar. So i dont see them exchanging new for old, BUT you might find some people willing to collect old instead of new, and vice versa. Seeing how we are just now breaking in on the scene, we will prolly be trading old for new. But if people go after new, and look to dump the old, then we will go that way. As long as YOUR collection looks good to you, and you dont minde it, then thats all that really matters.

[Sheppard1972]

OK, they want to make money so how about an exchange of old for new at the rate of a dollar or something close to it. Then they can help the current gamer that has supported the game and keep the business of the hard core gamer. Dreams are great, aren't they?;)

[bresh]

I dont see the point in voting on this, it would never happen in a million years.

Sad to say.

Regards
Bresh

[Tico303]

Wasn't this thread closed? Ah, no, that must have been the almost identical thread...

Well, it's a pointless discussion so please close it too. Either that or send minis for free :D

[FlyingDutchman]

A free exchange of old models for new models is the only way that I will stay with the game. Even so, I am a bit affraid of the additional space that the sclae increase will require for my current collection if I were offered full replacements and I am affraid of the costs of postage sending tens of kilos of plastic to the other side of the world.

However, I do not believe that this will happen. As a matter of fact, I have just bought my first 1:144 models to assess to waht extent it is feasible to replaced the old 1:120 models AAM. They will be out of scale with the infantry, however I prefer consistent vehicles scales over consistency between vehicles and infantry (after all, 1 soldier represents a squad...)

[J.L.Robert]

A free exchange of old models for new models is the only way that I will stay with the game. Even so, I am a bit affraid of the additional space that the sclae increase will require for my current collection if I were offered full replacements and I am affraid of the costs of postage sending tens of kilos of plastic to the other side of the world.

However, I do not believe that this will happen. As a matter of fact, I have just bought my first 1:144 models to assess to waht extent it is feasible to replaced the old 1:120 models AAM. They will be out of scale with the infantry, however I prefer consistent vehicles scales over consistency between vehicles and infantry (after all, 1 soldier represents a squad...)

If you wanted consistent vehicle scales, why have you been buying AAM to begin with? What AH is doing is what you WANT. The vehicle changes should be about 10%, nothing too drastic. So, your problem is...?

[Colonel_Coo]

The idea that we've gotten ZERO value out of your collection up until the release of SET VI is idiotic. You want to play and enjoy the units for YEARS but suddenly demand that they be replaced? Again, what play enjoyment did you receive for those years? What pride of ownership?

You know what? I have cards from the heydays of MtG. I don't play with them. Their value is in the hundreds of dollars each. The reason they are valuable is beyond me, but the BIG reason they have ANY value is the GAME COMPANY keeps making new cards and supports on-going competitive play.

So,
YOU CHOSE:
Should WoTC never make anymore AAM products? What value would your mini's then retain?
Should WoTC attempt to revise the game to appeal to a wider market? If they are successful, what value will your mini's enjoy?
Once set Vi is released, what happens to set I to V? Does WoTC continue to manufacture them or stop production? If they stop, what value increases occur to the desirable mini's from those sets?

Should WoTC trade in your mini for free? Let me you ask this in another way: Should WoTC allow you to trade in all your French Grenadiers because they made a better French unit? Should WoTC buy back all magic cards everytime they decide to improve on a previous card?

No, no, and no.

[NorthernRommel]

So us having to pay for their mistakes is ok with you?

Maybe you got money to blow on the new set. Maybe you are perfectly happy with that. Some of us do not. If this were a 40 or 60 dollar game I would not care less. But the way they are going about this is kick in the sack for the customers that put up with the past two years of their "experiment".

There was nothing extensively wrong with the old scale. This is a cash grab on their part -- plain and simple.

[Colonel_Coo]

If you spend 0 dollars how are you paying for their mistakes?

If you are arguing that the scales and models should have been replaced for free when they were released wrong (ala Spitfire, 3" gun, Hellcat) then I agree. WoTC delivered a flawed product. I do not currently play with the 3", the Hellcat, the Spitfire or the Ronald McDonald car.

But if you are arguing that the company has no right to adjust the scale, the tourneyment pricing (5pts moved to 7pts meansthose minis are now less in demand hence are valued lower), the rules (making 5/5 weaker and tanks stronger) then you are off base.

As an IP for WoTC, they maintain full creative control. You could argue in court the failed products (i.e the spitfire not being a spitfire), but if you continued to buy their products after realzing they were screwing you, then the court is not going to find in your favor. Actually, I am surprised they were not sued on that product failure: bait and switch.

But if WotC decides to make infantry twice as big in the future and vehicles, twice as small it is their right and they have not harmed you. You would be barking mad and never buy the product, but they would not have harmed you.

the best thing for this game is expansion to new player. WoTc is betting on the scale change and expert rules to make that happen.

[NorthernRommel]

They do have a right to change the scale.

The fact that they are screwing over their customers in the process is what I have issue with.

If they had any backbone (and foresight) then they would have approached this differently. Namely asking the community for input first, and making arrangements for trading in old for new in some form. Since Set III the company (and some of the people posting on this board) have this "buy the product and shutup" type of attitude. That is why I mostly stopped buying anything other then singles after that. I was still into the game well over a thousand bucks at that point.

If the next release is in fact the old scale (which I understand it is - correct me if I am wrong) -- and they were going to still sell it customers even knowing full well that it would all be discontinued in Sept-Dec -- then I think someone would have a legal case there too. Moreso then over the Spitfire thing

I do know that this "hamster on a wheel" approach to gaming is not for me. I am just surprised at the attitude of some gamers on this. At this point I am seriously questioniing why I even bother coming in to read these message boards anymore.

[Colonel_Coo]

I am more mad about the Spitfire and 3" gun not getting fixed than the upcoming scale change. I have preivously held off buying "other" non-wotc mini's to round out my volume (like SD KFZ-250's and T-34/76) but held off for the reasoning that the scale was too far off.

I currently am planning on updating my mini's with non-Wotc mini's. As long as I have 1 card, I am happy. My mini's will look cool whihc means people will want to play with them or against them.

I think the scale change will cause some players to stop, but more to start. In the end I think some that stop will come back. Overall, I hope it improves the game.

[horacus]

I think the scale change will cause some players to stop, but more to start. In the end I think some that stop will come back. Overall, I hope it improves the game.

Whise words sir.

[J.L.Robert]

I do know that this "hamster on a wheel" approach to gaming is not for me. I am just surprised at the attitude of some gamers on this. At this point I am seriously questioniing why I even bother coming in to read these message boards anymore.

Not all of us are blindly following. Some of us have taken a critical look, and have decided that the positives outweigh the negatives. In this particular matter, not enough people agree with you, plain and simple. Terribly sorry if we do not blindly follow you either, or pat you on the shoulder, or give you "atta-boys" for your opinions.

As to your veiled "threat" of leaving these boards...quitting because we don't agree with your position is one of the most absurd things I've read on the various message boards I follow. Should I renounce my US citizenship because I voted for Gore in 2000? Quitting because you're in the minority opinion is ridiculous. Accept the fact that not everyone sees it your way, and move on. Stop trying to proselytize us, and others will stop berating you for not agreeing with them, too!

Just turn the page...

[ShotGun Jolly]

I know I am new here..But I am starting to think that this scale change thing is starting to take a ugly personal tone....

There are people for this and people against this.. But is it just me, or does this whole thing have a feel of getting ugly fast?

SGJ

[Kaufschtick]

I know I am new here..But I am starting to think that this scale change thing is starting to take a ugly personal tone....

There are people for this and people against this.. But is it just me, or does this whole thing have a feel of getting ugly fast?

SGJ

This is a pretty big point in time for this game. There are a lot of WotCs customers who are going to feel they are being asked to repurchase pieces they have already purchased. A very valid point of view, IMHO. WotC has more than likely already put in motion all of the changes by now, and the only thing that remains for customers is to look at what changes have been made, and decide from there.

Where we're at now is that people are just becoming aware of these changes and are in the process of digesting it.

We have precious little actual information to go on, although I will say that I heard someone:confused: at the Origins Convention in Columbus was able to get some sneak pictures...NO WAIT!:eek: , I'm joking again! Everybody, just relax...:D

Seriously though, we are all in "hurry up and wait" mode here. If the change means a marked improvement in the quality of the pieces, things won't be all bad. The way things have come about though, has not been even close to ideal, especially from the customers point of view. IMHO, a move toward improved quality, however painful at the moment, is always the right direction to go.

[Lotus]

....We have precious little actual information to go on, although I will say that I heard someone:confused: at the Origins Convention in Columbus was able to get some sneak pictures...NO WAIT!:eek: , I'm joking again! Everybody, just relax...:D ....

I saw those photos. They were pulled as soon as they were up...and replaced by UFO photos. I guess the government opted for the less threatening conspiracy. I mean, someone had their headlights bashed out too...no, wait, I'm not supposed to talk about that. ;)

[NorthernRommel]

Not all of us are blindly following. Some of us have taken a critical look, and have decided that the positives outweigh the negatives. In this particular matter, not enough people agree with you, plain and simple. Terribly sorry if we do not blindly follow you either, or pat you on the shoulder, or give you "atta-boys" for your opinions.

Just turn the page...

As I said -- I am just surprised at the complacent attitude amongst some gamers so willing to accept getting screwed in the way this decision was shoved down our throats. Given the 40% or so of posters who agree with me that hardly counts as a tiny minority.

As to you -- your sarcastic apoligist tone hasnt changed from the beginning of this debate. Nothing you say is a surprise.

[GreekPartisan]

Hello NorthernRommel!
I am in the 40% minority who feel screwed, but I am not very
upset about the "majority" who blindly follow WotC.
I simply assume that people like me, who are really, truly fed up,
no longer care about responding in this forum, which is censored too.
They have just given up on the game, much like the silent
majority who have just given up on politics.
I write this only because I was incensed by the condenscending
remarks on your view.

[J.L.Robert]

As to you -- your sarcastic apoligist tone hasnt changed from the beginning of this debate. Nothing you say is a surprise.

Your condescending attitude towards those who do not share your opinion doesn't add any credibility to your own posts. Deflecting the issues by trying to make things personal does not lessen the validity of the points presented against your demands for compensation.

[TheJudge]

Apparently I already voted in this retarded poll but don't remember doing so.

Northern Rommel-

Ummm...grow up pal. Your attitude has been awful ever since I came to these boards, you talk down to people, you think you know it all, and no matter what anyone says, you are right! Stop coming here to try and convince everyone that you are right. Some agree and painfull as it may seem, the majority disagree.

The notion of demanding a trade in is rediculous at best in my opinion. I could quote plenty of examples of this type of thinking....here let me try this one:

Since 2000, I have paid more tax dollars each year than most people make and have I gotten my monies worth? Ummmm...negative. Did I ask the company(government)for a refund? Of course not, they'd laugh me out of the room.

I bought a yellow banana at the store and when I went to eat it the next day, it had some black spots on it. Should I take it back?

The scale change in A&A is a decision they made to get it on on the proper scale with the infantry. Perhaps they had a contract with a company to make them in that scale, did you ever consider that? Maybe they wanted to make them in the new scale all along but were obligated? Ever think of that?

No, of course not, all you think about is yourself and how you got screwed somehow and thats not WOTC's problem or a problem for most of the rest of us, it is a personal problem of your own that should probably seek help for. Hell, even Tony Soprano was in therapy.

How's that for a rant, I hope it closes this retarded thread. :)

[polish_horsy]

Yes. How dare anyone think about themselves. If Wotc had a problem producing something we should feel more sorry for them than our own pockets. That is the spirit. Perhaps they wanted to make things right but simply had to produce a wacked product and were being held hostage and simply forced to sell that product until they could re-vamp said product half way through. They had no choice!

:)

[TheJudge]

LOL

That's a good one Horsy.

You guys feel so grief stricken and mad because you totally allow yourselves to. The really negative posts, the ones ripping the company and whatnot come from you and rommelbomber. Everyone else seems to be either ok with it or at least reasonable about it, they aren't happy about it but they don't want to make a big deal out of it meaning, they'll live but you guys act like it is a personal vendetta against YOU and it simply isn't.

And yes, how dare you think for yourselves!!?? Only, you aren't thinking for just yourself and neither is rommel bomber, you want to drag anyone else you can into your misery. A perfect sign of dysfunction but thats another topic. You desperately need people to agree that you are right and get upset and defensive when someone doesn't agree.

Well, here it is, I don't agree. The plastic little army men will be a little bit bigger than they were before!!! :eek: Oh, the shame, the misery!

Hey, I'll survive, and so will you guys. You can still play to your hearts content and if you wanna be all honked off about not having a stupid Matilda tank, that is certainly your perogative. Funny thing is, guys RommelBomber will NEVER be happy no matter what they do. He's been whining on these boards since the day I got here about EVERYTHING and has gone so far as to be a member of a group designed to change all the rules of the game to suit THEM.

Sorry, the sky is blue, the Earth is older than 6,000 years, and WOTC can do whatever they feel like doing with their plastic tank and soldier product.

Onward

[polish_horsy]

hell I don't care if you agree... it's a free country.

[Colonel_Coo]

LOL



Sorry, the sky is blue, the Earth is older than 6,000 years, and WOTC can do whatever they feel like doing with their plastic tank and soldier product.

Onward

Why the religious dig?

[TheJudge]

Why the religious dig?

That's kind of the whole point Coo. people read into things way more than they need to. That wasn't a dig at all, in no way what so ever but often times things are taken way to literally and a fracas starts.

By the way, I don't believe in the Bermuda Triangle. :p

[Vinius]

Since 2000, I have paid more tax dollars each year than most people make and have I gotten my monies worth? Ummmm...negative. Did I ask the company(government)for a refund? Of course not, they'd laugh me out of the room.


Perhaps you should complain and rally other people to your cause. If enough people actually refused to pay outrageous taxes, perhaps we'd have a more fair system and maybe we'd get a more transparent system for budgetary spending.

Taxpayers are entitled to expect reasonable returns for our hard earned money, particularly when we can't simply vote ourselves pay raises.

In the same way, consumers should be able to have reasonable expectations of the corporations who are benefiting from their patronage. I'm waiting to see what the changes actually mean by way of aesthetics. If they're significantly off of what today's units are I'll be done purchasing. Rommel's point about a trade in isn't a pathetic idea. Such a program would keep me buying new units. I'd even pay a nominal fee for such a benefit. Several people who have invested hundreds, if not thousands of dollars into this game are disheartened by the idea of a drastic change in scale. Most are taking a wait and see attitude...like me. I think the lack of us speaking out is being misinterpreted as being for the changes. There's a difference between restraint and favor. I'm wondering how much effort it would be to charge cost for 1 for 1 trades. Like being able to purchase specific individual units, but only if you already had a version of that unit to trade in.

[NorthernRommel]

LOL

And yes, how dare you think for yourselves!!?? Only, you aren't thinking for just yourself and neither is rommel bomber, you want to drag anyone else you can into your misery. A perfect sign of dysfunction but thats another topic. You desperately need people to agree that you are right and get upset and defensive when someone doesn't agree.

Onward

1) Rommel Bomber is different poster - perhaps you should get that straight
2) Yes I have been vocal about problems with the game from the start
3) Thats right -- I pressed for better rules. We got them.
4) I made new rules, maps, cards to help improve things -- unlike you.

I generally do not make personal attacks -- that seems to be your preference, not mine. You have been riding my coat since you started here. Your anger far surpasses anything that I have ever posted.

My comments towards the company and WOTC however are valid. You and the other apologists dont like me for pushing to make things better. You are the ones taking an offensive tone. Yeah I guess me bad.

I would rather not see the game fail -- as much as I disagree with some aspects of it. But all I see with the current way Wizards is treating its customers is that they are digging themselves a deeper hole. At least I have the guts to speak up and say/do something constructive. The fact that others have posted similar comments on the forum in other threads as well is something that WOTC should not ignore.

[Colonel_Coo]

That's kind of the whole point Coo. people read into things way more than they need to. That wasn't a dig at all, in no way what so ever but often times things are taken way to literally and a fracas starts.

By the way, I don't believe in the Bermuda Triangle. :p

Hmm, okay. But just to clarify: only Jews, Christians and Muslims believe the Earth is 6000 years old. The belief stems from the writings of the Pentatuch attributed to Moses and believed to be holy and infalible. Moses is pretty big dude in all three religions.

Hence why I asked the question.

No offense taken by the way. As an observer, I find it odd when a person puts forward their notion at the expense of religious beliefs that are then generally derided as unintelligent or ignorant. I find this occuring quite often (see Christian Fish versus Darwin Fish as prime example) and intersting that the enlighted point out their enlightenment through casting of insults.

[horacus]

hell I don't care if you agree... it's a free country.

Amen to that. Amen.

[Moderator Kayn]

I'm not sure this thread is helping anything anymore. We have stepped beyond sharing opinions into - well you've read the posts.

I would very much rather that each poster rein himself in rather than resort to closing the thread and/or handing out warnings. I guess I expect more from the folks who post here.

I also know that you are a passionate bunch - you _care_ a lot about the game. Not to mention that this topic potentially hits you in the pocket - no one enjoys that feeling. But please, if you want to continue the discussion... tone down the harshness.

Thanks
Moderator Kayn

[Greenosaur]

:eek: This thread has gotten crazy!! I see five possibilites with this.

1: The "Exchange Program", which i dont see happening.

2: Some stay with the old, some go with the new, trade up in between, and both parties are happy!

3: Take the good with the bad, who cares what they look like, they still play!

4: Stop buying/playing the game, there have been some companies that suffered when they changed things, due to lack of support/consumers, and ended up not surviving...

5: Sell off to new players, like me, cheap...lol. I dont care if i got 3 shermans and they are different sizes, its the game play thats awesome!


Let the "Hate The New Guy" mail begin!

Thanks!

P.S. has there ever been givin any thought into giving this game, prize support in tournies? unless they do, i just havent seen it yet?

Thanks Again!

[NorthernRommel]

Kayn,

If you feel the need to close it at this point you have my blessing. I have no wish to spread any anger amongst posters. However personally I think closing the thread wont make the issue go away.

You allowed the poll to run for at least a week which was all I asked to get a reasonably accurate sample input from people. I appreciate you letting it stand that time.

It proved a point that WOTC needs to address. The percentage of people who agree that an exchange program of some form is needed should not be ignored.

Cheers all who had their sensible input.

[squirecam]

FWIW, I voted no.

[J.L.Robert]

FWIW, I voted no.

I didn't vote at all. I wasn't satisfied with either choice.

[DocD]

Hey, am I too late here?
Has anybody been checking out the prices of AAM on the net.....dropping dudes...badly.

I'm sure nobody really thinks WotC would take back these useless minis now.

[Sheppard1972]

Hey, am I too late here?
Has anybody been checking out the prices of AAM on the net.....dropping dudes...badly.

I'm sure nobody really thinks WotC would take back these useless minis now.

Where? What sites?

[polish_horsy]

The prices are down but not rock bottom. I think they are still worth more than half of what they were six months ago. But not much more than that.

Still... I'll sell singles if anyone is interested.

[NorthernRommel]

The prices are down but not rock bottom. I think they are still worth more than half of what they were six months ago. But not much more than that.

Still... I'll sell singles if anyone is interested.

What is the average price of a rare vehicle these days and where are you guys getting your info? Just Ebay?

[Uncle_Joe]

I'm going to guess that the prices wont truly nose-dive until the new set hits. Once that happens, the old stuff will be FAR cheaper since not only has the scale changed, the power level appears to have changed significantly as well.

[TheJudge]

I'll add one more common sense post:

The value of the minis may be falling on ebay or store sites because the demand isn't there.

I see it as basically this: If you started with this game at least 1 year ago, you likely have everything you want and more.(have you seen the trade lists?) You have no reason to buy anything other than the odd T-34 that comes along once in a while so the demand has lessened.

With word of the scale change, the chicken littles of the community have flooded the market with their extras increasing the glut while demand is low. This is a real boon for those who don't care, they can get lots of minis for cheap and good for them.

It's not real good for the guys who are selling because they will get like way less than they paid for the minis to begin with and will likely buy back in when the bigger models come out.

Then you have those who will sell and never play again. Oh well, don't let the door hit you.....

Me? I can play whenever I feel like it with what I still have and haven't lost a thing. I cut back playing to next to nothing because I thought the game had a lot of issues with American bias and super hero units but that's just an opinion. My minis are worth a lot when I have a good time playing the game. I still have Heroclix, Mechwariior, and a few Dreamblade minis and they just sit there being worthless TO ME because I don't play anymore. If I got anything for them, I'd feel lucky even at garage sale prices because at one point in time, I got my value out of them by having a good time playing and collecting them.

Minis don't just have a dollar value attached to them. if all you care about is money, I would strongly suggest not buying minis or cards as a way to make money or even break even later. There are to many games out there for people to play. Hell, I don't even think Magic is a money maker anymore and a total moron used to be able to make a profit on that. Buy boxes, get good cards, sell them, make profit. That's the good old days and they are gone boys and girls.

I'll happily buy rares for .50 a piece from whoever wants to sell them. ;)

[RBloom0566]

I voted No because I won't be buying in to the new scale.
This has probably been covered before, but since I don't hover on these boards as I was once wont to do, and don't feel like scouring for the answer...

Are all the vehicles that are "original scale" going to be re-cast in the "new 15mm scale" with the release of the new lines?

[panzerpainter]

Buy them now guys, on ebay. Once the new sets have been out for awhile, you may well see an increase in the prices of these smaller scale "antiques". Its possible, ebay is nuts.

Hey, am I too late here?
Has anybody been checking out the prices of AAM on the net.....dropping dudes...badly.

I'm sure nobody really thinks WotC would take back these useless minis now.

[TheJudge]

I just had a glance at ebay and saw that while the larger lots are not getting big money, or so it seems, some of the singles looked like decent prices. I saw a Jagdpanther at $6.00. Many of the auctions started at $4.99 and like $3.00 for shipping which is plain dumb.

The big money is going to War at Sea units, as much or more than any A&A piece ever was. I recall T-34's for $12-$15 pretty regularly and WaS has 4 or 5 units getting those prices every day. Doesn't hurt that you can't buy boosters right now either.

I think the best thing is to keep what you have and enjoy them. The best way to voice your opinion is not to buy the new tanks, just buy new singles of infantry, planes, etc.

[DocD]

I haven't checked ebay so I don't know what their prices are. I got an advertisement a few days ago with from an online store. All singles were slashed in half. The 13.99 IS-3 was down to 6.99.
True, this may be from a lull in sales, but I think it is pretty obvious also that merchants know the end is near and are trying to get whatever they can while they can.

[J.L.Robert]

True, this may be from a lull in sales, but I think it is pretty obvious also that merchants know the end is near and are trying to get whatever they can while they can.

I don't know about any lull in sales, but what is certain is that it's been 8 months since the game's had any new pieces. That kind of game stagnation typically leads to prices dropping, as collectors have obtained their quantities, and nothing new is available.

Expect to see prices spike back up when the next set rolls out.

[Muenchausen]

I haven't checked ebay so I don't know what their prices are. I got an advertisement a few days ago with from an online store. All singles were slashed in half. The 13.99 IS-3 was down to 6.99.
True, this may be from a lull in sales, but I think it is pretty obvious also that merchants know the end is near and are trying to get whatever they can while they can.

Gotta agree Doc. As much as I don't want to see this game end I think AH killed it with their recent changes. The scale uprising, now their crying about the new rules. I think they're allienating a lot of loyal customers. If I was interested in starting to play/collect this game, I would definately stand back and wait to see what happens before I spent a dime on tis.

[Togo]

I work at a game store and advised my new manager not to buy anymore singles until the new set comes out. Over the weekend I sold all but 9 base set and contested skys. Maybe I should reorder for those who are stocking up.

[Colonel_Coo]

I work at a game store and advised my new manager not to buy anymore singles until the new set comes out. Over the weekend I sold all but 9 base set and contested skys. Maybe I should reorder for those who are stocking up.

You should reorder for the cost of the SINGLE COMMONS and UNCOMMON soldiers. the new bosters are going to be 50% more expensive and have 50% less commons and uncommons.

[Mpedersen84]

I think that wotc should not replace but send a new version of each mini, of course this is a dream.....

[skystalker]

The primary isssue here is one of misrepresentation, so there is no question that any mini that is not 1/120th should be replaced. The Advanced Rules (page 10) clearly state "Soldiers and Vehicles 15mm, or 1/120" and the company has not delivered on that promise in several instances. Of course, these are also described as "historically accurate" on page 4, and we have all seen the Messerschpitz with no offer of exchange. If WotC chooses to do nothing, they will lose some business as this is simply not the way to treat customers. From my experience with Battlefront, I can tell you that this would not happen, as they are very attentive to the gamer's requests.

[Moderator Mired]

Good evening everyone,

It has been decided that there should be no more polls about WotC giving refunds/exchanges due to scale changes. At this point, I am closing this thread, and will monitor for future threads as well. If you would like to continue the conversation, you have two avenues:

1. There is an A&AM Praise/Complaint thread here: http://boards.avalonhill.com/showthread.php?t=12176

2. There is a new (and more robust) customer service process setup here: http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/ask.php?
... This will require a new signup/login for you to track, but we as Moderators have been promised that this is going to be the very best way for your customer service issues to be addressed.

Thank you for your understanding with this issue.

-Moderator Mired.