Getting a grip on scale

[killermuppet]

Ok so everyone wants to know what the difference in size will be. Well I ran down to my LGS and picked up some FoW figures for a comparison. Here is what I got. First Fan Favorite, the M4 Sherman Tank. (I haven't attached the Main Cannon on the Sherm as I am getting antsy to start painting.)

Also Included in this batch is the Panzer IV F2. I will also have the T/34 and Stug III in the next batch.

[killermuppet]

Here are the T34 and Stug.

Hopefully you can all see the difference just 3mm can make.

[Photoner Hawkwind]

Thank you for these posts. If we're lucky, WOTC hasn't scaled their new stuff quite as large as FOW and maybe the new vehicles that we don't already have will look better than the hellcat next to other vehicles on the board. Thanks for giving us some hope.

Now if WOTC will post some pics soon that may also give us some hope.

[Muenchausen]

Ok so everyone wants to know what the difference in size will be. Well I ran down to my LGS and picked up some FoW figures for a comparison. Here is what I got. First Fan Favorite, the M4 Sherman Tank. (I haven't attached the Main Cannon on the Sherm as I am getting antsy to start painting.)

Also Included in this batch is the Panzer IV F2. I will also have the T/34 and Stug III in the next batch.

I appreciate the effort but there's no telling if AH's stuff will be the same size, larger or smaller than FOW. Now if their new vehicles are about half way between the two vehicle you shown then the scale change will not be that bad, IMHO.

[killermuppet]

Well as I sit here putting on base coats and looking to the AAM vehicles it is a really noticeable difference. The T34 and P IV F2 make the AAM vehicles look like they were kiddie tanks. Not only the size difference, but the over all look also.

While I was at my LGS I noticed that FoW also puts out a decal collection (which I will pickup) that will really make the units stand out. I can say this enough, I use to defend AAM so much when people would say "that is dumb rule" or "Why did they do it that way?" Now I'm really leaning to forget AAM, Flames of War is a much better game.

WotC is really trying to kill this game and it showed so much potential too.

[Jesse_James]

Well as I sit here putting on base coats and looking to the AAM vehicles it is a really noticeable difference. The T34 and P IV F2 make the AAM vehicles look like they were kiddie tanks. Not only the size difference, but the over all look also.

While I was at my LGS I noticed that FoW also puts out a decal collection (which I will pickup) that will really make the units stand out. I can say this enough, I use to defend AAM so much when people would say "that is dumb rule" or "Why did they do it that way?" Now I'm really leaning to forget AAM, Flames of War is a much better game.

WotC is really trying to kill this game and it showed so much potential too.


There decal set is nice. My panzer IV plattons came with them. I bought them half off, so they were really 2 for the price of one.

[Lotus]

So it looks like our stuff is 2/3 the size of FoW stuff. Just like the Tiger pics on the other threads.

[hornet69]

so what if its a tad bigger ...not like its going to matchbox or hot wheels size

[melbourne]

Thanks for posting up the comparison shots.

[horacus]

Thank you for these posts. If we're lucky, WOTC hasn't scaled their new stuff quite as large as FOW and maybe the new vehicles that we don't already have will look better than the hellcat next to other vehicles on the board. Thanks for giving us some hope.

Now if WOTC will post some pics soon that may also give us some hope.

Yes, hopes die at the end, and only at that point.

[Ubergeek]

Flames of War figures are 1/100 scale or approximately 17-18mm scale. AA:M is 1/120 or 15mm scale. I don't think AA:M is going to be the same scale as FoW.

AA:M has always been 15mm. Scales are as follows:

1/160=12mm N-Gauge RR, ToI, M44,
1/144=14mm N + - Dragon/Can.do Series, World Tank Campaign.
1/120=15mm 15/32 TT U.S., AA:Minis (per the manual).
1/106=16mm . . . ???
1/100=18mm TT English Small Scale - usually 1.5 inches or less, FoW

I could be wrong but at the very least I'm hoping the scale change isn't going to be to a 1/100 scale like some folks on this board are alluding to.

[killermuppet]

I believe the scale will be the FoW scale for one simple reason. They want to sell the new AAM scale to the FoW Players. WotC knows this game is dying a horrible death due to mismanagement and corporate blunders. The only way to save it in their eyes is to get more cross market sales. Can't do that with smaller minis, so we get maxies pure and simple.

[zkraut]

Flames of War figures are 1/100 scale or approximately 17-18mm scale. AA:M is 1/120 or 15mm scale. I don't think AA:M is going to be the same scale as FoW.

AA:M has always been 15mm. Scales are as follows:

1/160=12mm N-Gauge RR, ToI, M44,
1/144=14mm N + - Dragon/Can.do Series, World Tank Campaign.
1/120=15mm 15/32 TT U.S., AA:Minis (per the manual).
1/106=16mm . . . ???
1/100=18mm TT English Small Scale - usually 1.5 inches or less, FoW

I could be wrong but at the very least I'm hoping the scale change isn't going to be to a 1/100 scale like some folks on this board are alluding to.



Not true, FOW is right on the ball 15mm. If AAM is bumping up to 15mm, then theyre gonna be the same size as the FOW minis. If its under, your looking more at 14mm, which is quite an odd scale.

[RommeL BombeR 77]

This blows.

[Richter von Manthofen]

I believe the scale will be the FoW scale for one simple reason. They want to sell the new AAM scale to the FoW Players. WotC knows this game is dying a horrible death due to mismanagement and corporate blunders. The only way to save it in their eyes is to get more cross market sales. Can't do that with smaller minis, so we get maxies pure and simple.


The only way to save it is an even LARGER blunder...

The Infantry are 15mm scale the vehicles (most) are smaller than they should be in 15mm scale.

[Qmark]

Um.... I fail to see a significant difference. Yes, the bigger ones are bigger, but not by much.

[Richter von Manthofen]

?? If there is a 10% increase in size this is a 33.1% increase in voulume that would be quite recognizable.

[Qmark]

The side-views look off, yeah. However, the top-down view, or how they'd look on something like, say, a table, really isn't significant.

[boersma8]

Um.... I fail to see a significant difference. Yes, the bigger ones are bigger, but not by much.

No offense, but then you're really in desperate need of contacts or glasses....

[Qmark]

No offense, but then you're really in desperate need of contacts or glasses....I'll just blame it on a raging astigmatism.

Hell, if everyone else finds the minor size difference to be that obvious and undesireable, it would become a competive advange to mix 12mm & 15mm scales randomly in a build (maybe they'll leave the exact same stats & SA's on a Chaffee or something) just to annoy the other guy and throw off his play.

[Bobsalt]

I have some FOW minis, and believe me, side by side the difference is very significant. The analogy that someone used about a mama Tiger and her Tiger cubs is a good one. It's especially bad on vehicles that are on the small side of whatever scale WotC is using, like the Pz IVD. They're about half the size of their FOW counterparts.

[TomServo]

We've got a few FOW Panzer IIIs, and they are almost twice the size of their A&AM counterparts.

[Tico303]

I think WotC should come forward with an official statement including pictures quite soon. The longer they wait, the longer all this second guessing will continue.

[killermuppet]

Well according to Gamer Zero, we will not get any information until the minimum of 9 Jul 07. I think we won't see anything until a week or two later and then it will basically be just buy the Expanded rules to get the latest updates.

[FlyingDutchman]

Here are the T34 and Stug.

Hopefully you can all see the difference just 3mm can make.

Have you glued the gun on the T-34 upside down?:cool:

[killermuppet]

Have you glued the gun on the T-34 upside down?:cool:

HMMMMM could be, I was rushing through to get the pics up. Still need to stop by Home Depot/Lowes to get a small file to clean up the main gun on the Sherman. There is still to much flashing to make the main gun mate up the the turret.

When I get them completed will repost the side by sides again and hope fully I will have a small ruler to place next to them for scale.

[Ubergeek]

Not true, FOW is right on the ball 15mm. If AAM is bumping up to 15mm, then theyre gonna be the same size as the FOW minis. If its under, your looking more at 14mm, which is quite an odd scale.

Inaccurate. 15mm does not equal 1/100 which is what Flames of War advertises. It's closer to 18mm even though I see lots of FoW played with 15mm terrain. The problem lies in the fact that the mm scale does not convert across directly to a tenths scale within the miniatures hobby. This is from a hobby site:

Our chart reflects this, insofar as those scales which do not have strict, regulated standards. Only the N, HO, S and O railroad scales are strictly determined. 1/100, 1/120, 1/144, 1/76 - 1/72 and others tend to fluctuate. In effect, one company's 1/144 is not another's. Mininature soldier 30mm scale is not always perfect 1/64. (It coule be anything from perfect 1/72 to perfect 1/60th!)

Here's a link to a good discussion with a scale comparison chart. http://thortrains.hypermart.net/scale1.htm

But the bottom line was already mentioned here in that AH needs to tell us what the intention is and post a few models side by side to see what the differences will be.

[zkraut]

Never Saw an advertisement Battlefront make that is 1/100. Ive only seen them advertise their scale as 15mm. Quite odd also when Battlefront makes 15mm terrain for their miniatures which you believe are 18mm.

[Von Korstick]

Never Saw an advertisement Battlefront make that is 1/100. Ive only seen them advertise their scale as 15mm. Quite odd also when Battlefront makes 15mm terrain for their miniatures which you believe are 18mm.

I've only seen it advertised as 15mm as well. Also m44 soldiers are definately not 12mm they are 20mm. Axis and Allies miniatures soldiers are 15mm and a couple of the tanks are 15mm: Panther D, The M18 Hellcat, SU-152. The rest of A & A tanks are 12mm regardless of what the manual says. So what we will be getting is all tanks the size of the M18, Panther D and SU-152 which are very close to FOW.

[horacus]

This blows.

You missed the up, to read: This Blows up...:p

[zkraut]

I've only seen it advertised as 15mm as well. Also m44 soldiers are definately not 12mm they are 20mm. Axis and Allies miniatures soldiers are 15mm and a couple of the tanks are 15mm: Panther D, The M18 Hellcat, SU-152. The rest of A & A tanks are 12mm regardless of what the manual says. So what we will be getting is all tanks the size of the M18, Panther D and SU-152 which are very close to FOW.


Hellcat is close, as for the Panther...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/treynor33/HPIM0911.jpg


If the new AAM scale is close to the "Oversize" units, then were good. The scale wont be so bad. But if its the 15mm that FOW is on, it just wont look right.

[Von Korstick]

I meant the Panther D from set 5 which is quite a bit bigger like 12mm to 15mm from the earlier SS Panther. I think that is a JagTiger in your picture.

[zkraut]

It is, and I do mean the Panther from Set V. From what I remember, the Panther could fit in a 2 inch hex, the FOW Panther fits in 2 hexes

[Remember-OWS-]

Thanks, I had that burry in my links... to many.

[Y2UAsk]

Thing is, there are lots of manufacturers of 15mm WW2 miniatures: Old Glory/Battle Honors, Peter Pig, Eureka, True North, and Quality Castings come to mind immediately as Battlefront's chief competitors. (I'd wager that Old Glory/Battle Honors still sells more 15mm WW2 figures than Battlefront.) And none of them are quite the same size as the others. It's a factor of both the sculptor's preference and the way molds are made for hot-lead spincasters. Because the molds are vulcanized under extreme pressure, the cavities turn out smaller than the master figures. It takes a very experienced carver and a top mold maker to minimize that difference. Also, rubber molds degrade with use, so figures from the 1,000th spin come out less detailed than the 1st.

Plastic molds, OTOH, are machine cut into brass or steel, so they don't have the shrinkage or degradation problems.

Which is not to say that plastic figs are inherently better than metal and resin ones, but they're completely different in terms of manufacturing.

Steve

P.S. I've seen unpainted versions of some of the new tanks. Whether you like the new scale or hate it, they are gorgeous. The detail is stunning.

[polish_horsy]

well that's what Bob said about the re-molded Hellcat a year ago.

(we'll see what really happens... at least some of you will.)

[killermuppet]

Thanks for stopping by Steve and providing the info. I was looking at the way the resin part (the dark gray area) looked to be cut from a block of resin. At least that is what it seemed to me.

With the models you have seen were they the production mock ups or were the artists renderings? When I first started looking at the models they showed the artists renderings and I thought "Check out the details" When I started opening up figs, I thought, this isn't what I saw?

[Y2UAsk]

I believe that what I saw were "grays" -- polyurethane casts made from the masters. The final molds are then made from the grays. Finals should be identical in all but the plastic that's used (PVC instead of PU).

Steve

[Sharpe]

It's great that technology has advanced so far in the last two years that WOTC can finally make the models correctly. Wouldn't want to think it was a failure of will or character.

Shame they couldn't have done it from the beginning.

[Imperious leader]

Axis and Allies Miniature infantry are old style HO scale or 1/87. They are not 15MM. I own thousands of 15 MM old glory and they are noticeably fatter and taller than AAM.

In fact old glory (command decision) are much better looking than AAM and cheaper... you can get a bag of 50 infantry for $8 bucks... you just got to paint them and base them.

[horacus]

well that's what Bob said about the re-molded Hellcat a year ago.

(we'll see what really happens... at least some of you will.)

hehehehehe, a year ago, great. I remember old good times.:)