The U.S. Sub fleet

[Frog]

I just lost @ Origins and have seen a new threat to Japans invinsability. So help me figure out what went wrong.

The U.S. bought 9 subs turn 1 & 2. then turn 3 moved that (18 subs and surviving units after J1) into the islands and destoyed my navy. He would attack every turn and kept pumping 7-8 subs in everyturn. taking all the convoy routes, sub-stalling, and being a real pain!

What would be a good counter to this??

Has anyone else ever seen this??

[richyj1]

All sub purchase US1 leaves India weak (unless Origins has special rules/extra help to UK?)

[Krieghund]

I have never actually seen this, but I have heard of it. It seems to me that the subs would be vulnerable to air attack if you bought a fair number of destroyers. You would also need to keep the main body of your fleet fairly well screened to keep masses of subs from attacking all at once.

Of course, the US fleet will also be exposed to air attack, and India and Australia will also be vulnerable.

[El Ravager]

First of all, Hi :) I'm new to Axis and Allies Pacific, and want to learn and get better so I thought... O dammit Rich is there... and Tordenskjold... oh never mind then ;)

I was just looking around here and then saw all these DOI people, so I thought I'd join as well and get more people excited about the wondeful game which is Axis and Allies: Pacific.

Now on to Frog's question: it is very important to realize that Allies can't win with subs only. Even if they will lose the sea battle a round earlier than normal, Japan still has all the chances because they can win with just Manchuria, Japan, Bonin, Ryukyu and DNG/Siam to get 1 VP per turn for a couple of rounds. This may sound like a stupid scenario but it will happen and Allies need to plan ahead for it. First of all, this means Allies need to plan for taking Dutch New Guinea. When they buy subs only, there will come a moment where Japan's airforce can crash into the US surface fleet and destroy all transports. Then Allies will be too late to take DNG. So in round 1, Allies need to buy surface fleet. The easiest way is another aircraft carrier, because there are plenty of fighters already on the board. I've found it best to buy an AC with Australia on UK1, because it can also help defend India against the _Crush_. If you want to buy fleet with US, buy some destroyers as well. Common are 6 sub 2 dst or 3 sub 4 dst, or even 5 sub 1 trn 2 dst. This will strenghten your surface fleet, as to survive air-only attacks.

The second flaw of sub-only purchase is, as mentioned by Rich, that it does nothing for India. You can agree ot not, but I think US needs to buy at least some bombers, preferably 5, to make sure India is safe (given a reasonable J1). Then on US2, you want fleet, but once again not only subs. I usually go for 5 sub 1 trn 2 dst or 2 sub 1 trn 4 dst, depending on Japanese airforce.

All the above doesn't really tell you how to actively defeat an all-sub strategy, but it shows some weaknesses that you should understand first. When you do, you will be able to exploit them.

El Rav

[richyj1]

First of all, Hi :) I'm new to Axis and Allies Pacific, and want to learn and get better so I thought... O dammit Rich is there... and Tordenskjold... oh never mind then ;)
Hey Daan: Yeah, I don't think you're going to get away with pretending to be a newbie around here... ;)

Rich

[Carico67]

The US won't win you the game as the allies against a good Japanese player; the UK, and what they can safely do, is the key to stopping Japan. A good Japanese player will simply sub spread and delay you (US w/sub strat) when necessary... and without UK clearing forces around, and that means/needs air cover, it's game/set/match at that point. C2

BTW, if El Rav is new to AAP then I'm new to a computer (but I'm loving this thing :D )

Chris C

[Frog]

OK, some may not like what I'm about to say and their response will be -Don't play. But @ origins and FTF tournaments there has to be time limits. So at the end of 3:45 if Japan can't get 22 VP They lose. Saying you can always squeeze out 1 VP perturn on the mainland won't work in tournament play. If it takes more than 2 turns to win for Japan, then the Allies win.

When the Allies bought all subs they combined them with the carrier, destroyers, transports left on their first turn. Thus all casulaties in attacks were subs and they kept a surface fleet.

I like the vulnerability to air attack, but taking subs as losses they still could fight with carrier / planes and destroyers.

In a regular-untimmed game things may have been different. I could have won if I could continue for the 1 or 2 VP for several more rounds, but that is not how the rules work.

[Krieghund]

One way to keep the US from taking subs as casualties in a battle is by not having destroyers in your force. If you are attacking, don't take them with you. If you are defending, take them as casualties first. That way, the US player will have to take surface ships as casualties from your air unit hits.

[El Ravager]

OK, some may not like what I'm about to say and their response will be -Don't play. But @ origins and FTF tournaments there has to be time limits. So at the end of 3:45 if Japan can't get 22 VP They lose. Saying you can always squeeze out 1 VP perturn on the mainland won't work in tournament play. If it takes more than 2 turns to win for Japan, then the Allies win.

When the Allies bought all subs they combined them with the carrier, destroyers, transports left on their first turn. Thus all casulaties in attacks were subs and they kept a surface fleet.

I like the vulnerability to air attack, but taking subs as losses they still could fight with carrier / planes and destroyers.

In a regular-untimmed game things may have been different. I could have won if I could continue for the 1 or 2 VP for several more rounds, but that is not how the rules work.

I think time constraints create an unhealthy extra factor in the game. Could you explain how it works exactly? Is it like a chess clock mechanism?

For air attack problem, Krieghund has explained it perfectly.

[Frog]

First let me say I agree there has to be a time constraint in a tournament. Otherwise one game ties everyone else up waiting for each game to finish before starting a new round.

Here is how it worked

1) Game -3:45 (give or take a few minutes to complete a round)

2) Bid IPC's to be given to the allies to buy units.

3) Play till time is up.

Now here is where I disagree (sorry Greg). The burden is currently on Japan to either take a capital or win 22 VP in the time allowed. I believe the burden should be on the Allies to stop Japan in VP's or prove Japan can't win. If Japan has the possibilty of winning at the end of 3:45, they should win.

The is no clock watching how much time is spent. But an allied player can take all the time they need. It is Japan that has to get in as many rounds as possible to win.

I like the "don't taske a destroyer into battle" , but that only leaves an attacking airforce. couldn't this be costly? (first impression)

[Krieghund]

I like the "don't taske a destroyer into battle" , but that only leaves an attacking airforce. couldn't this be costly? (first impression)

You can take ships with you, just not destroyers. Battleships and transports can absorb some of the hits, and you can withdraw after you've destroyed the surface fleet with your air power.

[richyj1]

First let me say I agree there has to be a time constraint in a tournament. Otherwise one game ties everyone else up waiting for each game to finish before starting a new round.

Here is how it worked

1) Game -3:45 (give or take a few minutes to complete a round)

2) Bid IPC's to be given to the allies to buy units.

3) Play till time is up.

Now here is where I disagree (sorry Greg). The burden is currently on Japan to either take a capital or win 22 VP in the time allowed. I believe the burden should be on the Allies to stop Japan in VP's or prove Japan can't win. If Japan has the possibilty of winning at the end of 3:45, they should win.

The is no clock watching how much time is spent. But an allied player can take all the time they need. It is Japan that has to get in as many rounds as possible to win.
Okay, there are two big issues here:
- If the Allied player can take as much time as he wants, then what if he takes all the time on Allied 1? Should be a chess-clock type arrangement.
- You're playing to 22 VPs!?!?! I haven't seen a game that low for a long, long time - basically since the 'swing' style J1 became popular.