Shinano

[Autarch]

Still looking for input on ship stats:

Shinano
Ship - CV
1945
Cost: 35
Speed: 2 Aircraft Capacity: 2
Attacks
Main: 6 6 4
AA: 8
Armor: 7 Vital Armor: 14 Hull: 6

Torpedo Defense 1

AA Rockets: This ship gains an additional attack of 7 dice during the Air Defense phase. Aborted Dive bombers cannot press the attack.

Aircraft Replenishment: Once per game, up to 4 local or adjacent carriers can replace 1 aircraft lost in combat.

[Jameson]

Your SA's are far too strong. In a battle, there is no way the Shinano could have replenished any other carriers with planes. Your AA rocket idea, while admirable, is too strong. Maybe just incorporate that in a higher AA roll? At the same time, it's AA was not nearly effective as the Iowa's, and that has a roll of 9 in the game. Maybe you should just stick with 8. Your core stats are almost there though.:)

[shermanM4A1]

Why are the armor stats on this thing so high?

[Quel]

Why are the armor stats on this thing so high?

It was built off the same class hull as the Yamato.

[shermanM4A1]

Wow, they actually built a CV on a Yamato hull? So how did the Shinano fare in WWII?

[JUNO44]

Sunk late in war by US sub, 3? torpedoes? Ship was new, not at watertight condition or some other integrety problem.

[Quel]

Wow, they actually built a CV on a Yamato hull? So how did the Shinano fare in WWII?

Sadly, the unique ship went down while moving from one harbor to another for final fitting. The submarine Archerfish sighted her enroute and fired six torpedoes, with four hitting. Her watertightness wasn't fully completed, as well as having a crew that was poorly trained in damage-control, and she went down with over half of her crew.

[Autarch]

Thanks for the feedback, I agree the SAs could be toned down a bit. I was aiming to make the Replenishment SA comparable to the Nordmark's repair SA. It likewise is not realistic, but fits into the whole collectible/mini/fun concept.

There seemed to be a lot of debate on how the Shinano was supposed to operate, as a combat carrier or underway replenishing ship to provide munitions, aviation fuel, replacement aircraft and aircraft repair facilities so Japanese carriers could stay at sea longer. The Japanese split the difference, giving it it's own combat aircraft, but devoting half of its hanger space to aircraft storage and repair shops. This was probably the second worst decision, considering they were in no position to be conducting extended naval operations and probably should have made it a dedicated fleet carrier.

I couldn't really find anything talking about the effectiveness of the AA rockets. They look good on paper. I think being able to put a lot of explosions in front of an attacking aircraft (28 rounds in 20 seconds for the rockets vs 10-14 rounds a minute for standard 127mm AA guns) would dissuade anyone from pressing an attack. Plus the fact that Shinano would have had twice as many launchers as any other ship mandated their inclusion as a separate ability.

On AA, the Shinano boasted about twice the AA compliment of the Shokakus. This ought to be worth at least one extra point.

The only thing I wasn't sure about was the armor. I've read the ship was actually completed all the way up to the main deck when construction was suspended. This would seem to give the ship the same stats as the Yamato, except the two battleships were up armored at some point and the Shinano wasn't. I've decided that the Yamato stats are before this upgrade and have altered the Shinano's game stats accordingly.

Shinano
Ship - CV/Replenishment ship
1945
Cost: 35
Speed: 2 Aircraft Capacity: 2
Attacks
Main: 6 6 4
AA: 8
Armor: 10 Vital Armor: 16 Hull: 6

Torpedo Defense 1

AA Rockets: This ship gains an additional attack of 7 dice during the Air Defense phase. Aborted Dive bombers cannot press the attack.

Aircraft Replenishment: Once per game during the Air Return Phase, up to 2 local or adjacent carriers can replace 1 aircraft lost in combat on a roll of 2-6.

I also like the idea of a regular fleet carrier version:

Shinano
Ship - CV
1945
Cost: 37
Speed: 2 Flagship: 2 Aircraft Capacity: 4
Attacks
Main: 6 6 4
AA: 8
Armor: 10 Vital Armor: 16 Hull: 6

Torpedo Defense 1

AA Rockets: This ship gains an additional attack of 7 dice during the Air Defense phase. Aborted Dive bombers cannot press the attack.

[Cinnibar]

I dislike the idea of aircraft replenishment effecting any other carrier... that SA seems much too powerful to me... at least, as it is stated. The AA rockets are excessive in my estimation as well.

If the ship has double the AA capacity of a Shokaku (7 dice), then 8 or 9 dice of AA makes it twice as effective. There's no need for the AA rockets.

I would classify the Shinano as :

Shinano
Ship - CV 1945
Cost: 31
Speed: 2 Aircraft Capacity: 2
Attacks
Main: 7 7 5
AA: 8
Armor: 8 Vital Armor: 15 Hull: 6

Sub Magnet : Submarines attacking this ship roll one extra torpedo die

Aircraft Cargo : Once per game, if an aircraft based off the this carrier is destroyed, that aircraft may return to play based on this carrier at the end of the Air Return Phase.

I'd run higher guns on it, less cost, a negative SA to reflect it's demise, and allow one of the two prior SA's, heavily modified to only effect the Shinano. I certainly wouldn't give it Torpedo Defense, given the way it sank.

[Autarch]

Good catch on the guns, I forgot to factor in the twelve 4.7" guns. EDIT: In fact, I'll make them secondaries.

I elected to draw up a version based on it's ideal parameters it was slated to be built out to, not it's actual historical performance as an uncompleted, non-operational torpedo target. Sub Magnet is a good SA, though. I'd apply it to the Wasp, and add "Any friendly ship in the same sector is also attacked by 1 torpedo dice."

I still believe the vast arsenal of AA weapons this ship would have carried mandates an SA. Taking away press the attack though, it is too powerful considering its armor and vital.

Shinano
Ship - CV/Replenishment ship
1945
Cost: 35
Speed: 2 Flagship: 2 Aircraft Capacity: 2
Attacks
Main: 6 6 4
Secondary: 4 4 3
AA: 8
Armor: 10 Vital Armor: 16 Hull: 6

Torpedo Defense 1

AA Rockets: This ship gains an additional 7 dice AA attack during the Air Defense Phase.

Aircraft Replenishment: Once per game during the Air Return Phase, up to 2 local or adjacent carriers can replace 1 aircraft lost in combat on a roll of 2-6.

[Cinnibar]

Shinano
Ship - CV/Replenishment ship
1945
Cost: 35
Speed: 2 Flagship: 2 Aircraft Capacity: 2
Attacks
Main: 6 6 4
Secondary: 4 4 3
AA: 8
Armor: 10 Vital Armor: 16 Hull: 6


Meh, we'll just agree to disagree. I think you have the thing completely over-buffed. Above the SA's, the Armor and Vital are way too high as well.. it wouldn't have possessed the armor deck in a thickness comparable to the Yamato on the flightdeck.

[Jameson]

Sub Magnet is a good SA, though. I'd apply it to the Wasp, and add "Any friendly ship in the same sector is also attacked by 1 torpedo dice."


Do I detect a little bias towards the Axis forces?

Cinnibar, I like your sub magnet SA. When I finish my Saratoga, I want to put a SA ability on it that all subs within range must attack it, but they get -1 torpedo rolls.

She was plagued by sub attacks, but never sunk. What do you think of this SA?

[Scharnhorst]

If it was sunk by a submarine's torpedos there is NO WAY it should have torpedo defense. The Hull and Vital are way too high for a carrier, even if it was a concept taken from the Yamato.

Your SA's are broken. There is no way any ship should get 15 dice to roll an anti-air attack. In the middle of a battle a fleet isn't going to stop and take a moment to replenish its aircraft. That would cost time and resources and would probably take as long as a battle itself.

This idea is much like the idea I attempted when I made an ISE-class Battleship. It was drawn out and the idea looked good on paper, but historically it was never tested or used due to lack of oppertunity or materials.

Ships like that, or the Ise, or the Aquila or Graf Zepplin realistically won't be out until a much later set. Don't get me wrong I'd like to see them someday, but I think the majority of players want the main ships of each fleet before we get to the experimental ones.

[Cinnibar]

Do I detect a little bias towards the Axis forces?

Cinnibar, I like your sub magnet SA. When I finish my Saratoga, I want to put a SA ability on it that all subs within range must attack it, but they get -1 torpedo rolls.

She was plagued by sub attacks, but never sunk. What do you think of this SA?

"Irresistable Target"

Heh. Sounds interesting.

[TheJudge]

Those stats are too high for the game. Considering that it was sunk by torpedo is mostly irrelevant since it simply wasn't prepared for combat. Water tight doors were not in place, it wasn't combat ready.

HMS Barham had anti-torpedo bulges fitted between the wars and was sunk by a submarine also. Just because a ship has anti torpedo defense doesn't mean it is very good but it still might merit torpedo defense 1.

Shinano was a BIG ship but didn't have near the armor that Yamato had. I think it should look something more like this:

35 points planes 4 1944 or 45 (as it would have been really finished in 45 and that is a big maybe)

Speed 2
Guns 6/6/5
AA 8
Armor 6 Vital Armor 11 Hull points 5 (this shows a nice upgrade over Akagi basically)

SA- Irresistable Target- Submarines must attack this ship if within range
SA- Replenishment Ship- This ship may launch 2 air missions per turn and may also launch 2 aircraft that ferry to another carrier or land base per turn. This ship is reinforced by 1 squadron of carrier based planes every 3 turns but can only hold a maximum of 4.

That sounds like a fun ship and not retardedly good or powerful. Useful, fun units make this game good.

[LoneWolf]

I wouldn't rate her armour any better then a 6-7 to be honest.

basing cap 2 - 3

Torp defense yes, but maybe hull 5.

I wouldn't give her a torpedo magnet ability either.

Aircraft Replenishment ability would be great for her.

"AA Rockets: This ship gains an additional 7 dice AA attack during the Air Defense Phase." if this is in it I would have it simular to anti-air specailist have it used against another plane in the sector

[Scharnhorst]

Judge, I don't think your version of the Replenishment Ship SA is needed. As far as I understand it carriers are allowed to "ferry" to other carriers or Land Bases already.

The replenishment thing would probably work as a once per game rule.

Also, the anti-air specialist SA would be much better than the 15 dice rocket anti air attack.

With two SA's like that I think the torp. def. would just be too much at this point.

The big question I'm wondering is at 35 points with 4 planes are you going to be able to support this bad boy with anything else?

(I'm critical, but I'm open to the possibilities) I'm starting to like where this is going.

[Autarch]

Meh, we'll just agree to disagree. I think you have the thing completely over-buffed. Above the SA's, the Armor and Vital are way too high as well.. it wouldn't have possessed the armor deck in a thickness comparable to the Yamato on the flightdeck.

Basically I'm just going by what I've researched online and my own limited texts. If anyone has access to Conway's or some other detailed reference, feel free to post belt and deck armor thickness in comparison to Yamato ('42) so I can render the statistics more accurately.

I originally had the armor ratings less, but I read the ship was actually completed up to the main deck before construction was suspended. Basically they built up the hanger and flight decks on top of the completed hull. Plus, there was MORE armor added above and beyond what the Yamato had in 1942!

Do I detect a little bias towards the Axis forces?


Heh heh. Well, they didn't give I-19 Audacious Attack so I figured the North Carolina was just too close to the unlucky Wasp... a modified Submarine Magnet sounds like a great SA for that situation though it does seem more applicable to Saratoga.

If it was sunk by a submarine's torpedos there is NO WAY it should have torpedo defense. The Hull and Vital are way too high for a carrier, even if it was a concept taken from the Yamato.

Your SA's are broken. There is no way any ship should get 15 dice to roll an anti-air attack. In the middle of a battle a fleet isn't going to stop and take a moment to replenish its aircraft. That would cost time and resources and would probably take as long as a battle itself.

Again, going for it's ideal doctrinal role, not it's historic target practice role.

That's a good point, all 15 dice shouldn't be on one target, but divided like Atlanta's Anti-air Specialist. Aircraft Replenishment is for game flavor like Nordmark's Repair SA. I'm not making these for HHR.



Ships like that, or the Ise, or the Aquila or Graf Zepplin realistically won't be out until a much later set. Don't get me wrong I'd like to see them someday, but I think the majority of players want the main ships of each fleet before we get to the experimental ones.

I already have a Furuta version, that's why I'm asking for folks' input to draw up the stats so I don't have to wait on AH. :)

Thinking more about Replenishment, it can give a player 26 more points of units. I think I like a random roll better:

Shinano
Ship - CV/Replenishment ship
1945
Cost: 40
Speed: 2 Flagship: 2 Aircraft Capacity: 2
Main: 6 6 4
Secondary: 4 4 3
AA: 8
Armor: 10 Vital Armor: 16 Hull: 6

Torpedo Defense 1

AA Rockets: This ship gains an additional 7 dice AA attack against a second plane during the Air Defense Phase.

Aircraft Replenishment: Once per game during the Air Return Phase, roll 1 dice: 1-3 Zero 4-5 Val 6 Kate. If the plane rolled has been lost in a previous turn, it returns to the game and can be placed on any friendly carrier. If the result indicates planes that have not been lost, then the SA is expended and no aircraft are replenished.


That way you have to wait until you lose one of each plane to be sure and get one back. Also raised the cost to 40.

[TheJudge]

That's kind of the whole point. If you make it 35 points, it better be worth playing, otherwise, why bother? You can make another Akagi type carrier. This is an upgrade from akagi but costs more. Better armor, AA, and has some unique SA's which aren't overpowered and carrier 4 planes instead of 3 and doesn't have a flag bonus. The armor, AA, and SA minus the flag makes it 8 points more than Akagi but some people would prefer Akagi, depends on your fleet I suppose. It makes it a different option, not the same old thing.

Shinano- 35 pts
Val x2 20 points
Kate- 13
Zero 6
Shokaku- 20
Val x2 20
Zero 6
Shoho- 9
Zero- 6
Kongo- 35
Myoko- 24
Betty- 6

200 points for some pretty awesome airpower, a BB, and CA.

Naturally, you can change it up and use subs instead of an extra carrier and Myoko. It just gives some pretty nasty air power with the extra planes it can carry and ferry. But I'm sure someone can always come up with something better of course but since it is a unit not even in circulation, it's just fun to speculate without being crazy. Like, if you were a game designer, what would the Shinano look like? Would it be useless, stupid, over powered? Would people want to buy it?

[LoneWolf]

Not to sure why you keep giving her 10/16 amour vital, she was laid down as a Yamato class battleship origional, but this doesn't mean she matched the Yamato's armour. Yamato also had inclinded armour (if memory is right could be wrong)

Drop the armour value so you can drop the points cost of her and give her something the Japanese could use on an Aircraft Carrier. Like expert ASW ^^ jks

[Autarch]

The main problem is conflicting information on the armor thickness of the belts anywhere from 5" (less than Akagi!) to 18". Heck, I've seen the displacement range from 50,000-90,000 tons! Right now I'm just defaulting to the Yamato's stats. A number of the sources I've seen agree that the ship was finished to the main deck when work was suspended. When resumed later, the hanger areas were simply built on top of the existing deck. The barbettes for the main guns and armored magazines were left intact to store aircraft munitions and aviation fuel. The Shinano had MORE displacement than the Yamato and the Musashi, and it didn't have the three 2700 ton turrets! I'm estimating this difference in weight went to armoring the hangers and flight deck. I doubt that the hull armor was gutted or incomplete, as this would lead to serious top heavy issues.

Many seem to balk at the armor values, but can't explain how a ship about the same dimensions as an Essex or Iowa weighs about twice as much as either...

It's all in the armor which is reflected in the stats.

Again, I'm still researching and I'll be glad to revise them down with some definitive evidence.

[Jameson]

Part I

OK, I've been meaning to make this post since this thread first started but haven't had the time. I will give you the exact stats for the Shinano, based on the following sources:

The Encyclopedia of Warships From World War II to the Present Day
The Encyclopedia of Ships, General Editor: Tony Gibbons
The Illustrated Guide to Aircraft Carriers of the World
The Illustrated Directory of Warships From 1860 to the Present
Fighting Ships of the World
Warships 1860-1970
Victory At Sea: World War II In the Pacific
Osprey's Imperial Japanese Navy Aircraft Carriers 1921-1945

Here are the Stats first. All books have the exact same figures (+/- a few hundred tons):

Shinano
Displacement: 72,000 tons (full load)
Speed:27 knots

Armour
Armoured Flight Deck: 3.1 in
Armoured Belt: 8 in (Half that of the Yamato)
Armour (Hanger Deck): 7.5 in
Aircraft: 47
Here's where it gets tricky. Although the carrier could be used as an attack carrier with approx 70-plane capacity, it was mainly designed to hang back of the main carrier group, and be a sort of floating repair shop. Battle-damaged planes from other carriers could land, and be repaired, then sent back to their home carriers. The emphasis was more on repair than replenishment. Also, the Shinano would be used to re-arm aircraft for other carriers, being able to store much ordnance, therefore extending the amount of time the carrier group could operate at sea.

The replenishment factor comes from the fact that instead of other things like spare parts or spare ordnance, the large amount of space could be used to store aircraft. However, these aircraft would be crated up for shipping, or have their wings removed for economic use of space. Shinano could ferry these aircraft from the Home Islands to say a base like Singapore, where the planes could be unloaded, assembled, and stationed on carrier fleets based there. Estimates for how many could be ferried reach up to 150.

Therefore, the idea that the Shinano could generate full squadrons of aircraft to replenish another carrier during battle is pretty far-fetched.

[Jameson]

Part 2

Armament:
16 5" Dual Purpose guns
145 25mm (1") guns
12 28-barreled rocket-launchers

It seems that most sources found the rocket-launchers to be much like the Yamato & Musashi's special 18" AA barrage: Impressive looking, but not too effective. That being said, it is still something that should be taken into account. The Shinano's AA was similar to the Shokaku class, but with more 1" guns, and the rocket launchers. It is fairer to rate the AA higher than the Shokaku's 7 roll's, but not by too much. I would say an 8 would be fair.

The sheer amount of light AA and the rocket-launchers would have made the Shinano harder to make a low-level attack against it. So maybe your SA should just be -1 dice for strafing or torpedo attacks. 7 extra dice seems a little too much for an SA.

Also, it is tempting to give this ship a high armour-rating and good torpedo defence since after all, it was designed from a Yamato-class hull. It should be known before making this decision that when the Allied technicians studied the Shinano's armour plan after the war, they found the design of the torpedo bulges to be flawed. Once again, I would like to state that the Shinano's armoured-belt of 8 in was half or the Yamato & Musashi's 16 in belt.

I think that incorporating the Shinano into this game is a great idea. Getting too carried away with the stats and SA's will be a negative factor in the long run, when other players refuse to play against it. If it's a unit that you really want to make and use in the game, it would be best to keep it realistic.

[Jameson]

The explanation you seek for the extra weight. The 3" armoured deck, combined with the 7.5" hanger deck, would indeed have added weight. Also note though, that the 72,000 tons is for full-displacement or "fully-loaded". The amount of spare parts, fuel and ordnance she was designed to operate with, as well as the accommodation's for the large 2,400 man crew, would have been a significant part of it's weight.

For the record, Jane's Battleships of the 20th Century rates the Yamato as 71,659 tons full displacement. Just short of the Shinano.

[Autarch]

Thanks Jameson! Very informative. I'll take all that into account when I revise the stats.

[Autarch]

Shinano
Ship - CV/Replenishment ship
1945
Cost: 30
Speed: 2 Aircraft Capacity: 2
Main: 6 6 4
AA: 8
Armor: 6 Vital Armor: 14 Hull: 6

Torpedo Defense 1

Fatal Flaw: Subs ignore this ship's Torpedo Defense.

AA Rockets: Planes making torpedo or strafing attacks are at -1 per die.

Aircraft Replenishment: Once per game on turn 5 or later, if at least two of the same carrier aircraft have been destroyed, the controlling player may return one of them to the game and place it at the end of the Air Mission Phase.

[aquarius]

The one thing is that the game rarely gets to turn five, so the replenishment should probably be on turn 4, like the Night Fighter.

[Cinnibar]

Shinano
Ship - CV/Replenishment ship
1945
Cost: 30
Speed: 2 Aircraft Capacity: 2
Main: 6 6 4
AA: 8
Armor: 6 Vital Armor: 14 Hull: 6

Torpedo Defense 1

Fatal Flaw: Subs ignore this ship's Torpedo Defense.

AA Rockets: Planes making torpedo or strafing attacks are at -1 per die.

Aircraft Replenishment: Once per game on turn 5 or later, if at least two of the same carrier aircraft have been destroyed, the controlling player may return one of them to the game and place it at the end of the Air Mission Phase.

Tweak the last SA a bit, and I think you're getting very close to a winner.

[Jameson]

I agree with Cinnabun, it's looking much better.

[TheJudge]

I also agree, that looks like a much more playable unit than some of the others I have seen.

The last SA could read: Repair Facilities- If it is turn 4 or later, return any one destroyed aircraft to the game. Once per game.

[Autarch]

Shinano
Ship - CV/Replenishment ship
1945
Cost: 30
Speed: 2 Aircraft Capacity: 2
Main: 6 6 4
AA: 8
Armor: 6 Vital Armor: 14 Hull: 6

Torpedo Defense 1

Fatal Flaw: Subs ignore this ship's Torpedo Defense.

AA Rockets: Planes making torpedo or strafing attacks are at -1 per die.

Aircraft Repair/Replenishment: Once per game on turn 4 or later, the controlling player may return one destroyed carrier aircraft to the game and place it at the end of the Air Mission Phase.


Thanks for everyone's input! I think the result is most excellent, way better than what I would have come up with on my own. Thanks again.

Now for King George V...

[aquarius]

Now I just need to buy one of these on eBay.

[Autarch]

The final result (click on to see larger image):

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/5503/shinanostatcardkk3.th.png (http://img292.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shinanostatcardkk3.png)


http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/551/shinanobackstatcardfc0.th.png (http://img172.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shinanobackstatcardfc0.png)

[Admiral D]

Get rid of the AA rocket SA. By all accounts they were useless. Her 3" armored flight deck would have resisted a 500lb bomb and a 1000lb AP or 1600lb bomb would have detonated on the 7" armor deck outside the vitals. She would only have been vulnerable to near miss bombs or torpedoes.

[Taisho Bo]

I think its a very interesting unit.
However, with these stats, I wouldnt deploy it. too expensive, too weak SA's, and only 2 planes.

[The_Lucky_Y]

here My version


http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/1052/shinanano4cz4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Autarch]

I just noticed the AA rockets didn't make sense since torpedoes only hit on a six. Plus I forgot the back.

http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/372/shinanostatcardso2.th.png (http://img240.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shinanostatcardso2.png)


http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/1994/shinanobackstatcardem5.th.png (http://img338.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shinanobackstatcardem5.png)

[LoneWolf]

here My version


http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/1052/shinanano4cz4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

To strong.......

[Taisho Bo]

Holy crap!! carrying 4 airgroups??!!
that represents 100 aircraft??!! I dont think thats realistic.
but if you'd forget about that, this IS a unit I would deploy, contrary to the previous version.
still.. this isnt right.

[LoneWolf]

Holy crap!! carrying 4 airgroups??!!
that represents 100 aircraft??!! I dont think thats realistic.
but if you'd forget about that, this IS a unit I would deploy, contrary to the previous version.
still.. this isnt right.

She could store more then that, that is if I remember right.

Though If remember right, the sister to Richeleu was planned to be converted to a Aircraft carrier, might of been the Richeleu herself, I forget witch one. But plans were dropped for reasons.

Point being conversions don't always work out as hoped. there's reason she was going to be a support carrier.

[irondog068]

This poor ship had a lot of flaws
1) horribly green crew who had no concept of damage control
2) From what I read I do not know if she could launch a carrier strike
3) Her fuel was a horribly poor grade so she may have to have the "Slow" rule
4) The fuel was very flammable. Because of #1 and this I would drop the hull points to 5 and maybe drop the armor
5) I would not allow her to launch aircraft but store 4 air units to be put on a "real" carrier if in the same zone. Her last (and only) cruise she was filled in hanger and deck with hordes of aircraft.
6) Loose the AA rockets and drop her AA value due to #1.
7) As cool as this is it should be laid to rest along with the KM Graf Zepplin and USS Montana and the other "One hit wonders"

This ship was going to be a Battleship and the change to CV was done quickly and without much thought.

The largest carrier till the USS Enterprise (SVN65) was build and used as a ferry and she didn't even manage to do that. And with the sinking of that carrier the USS Archerfish became one of the top tonnage US subs.

Irondog

[Autarch]

Note the date of availability. Basically the idea is that this is what the ship would look like if properly fitted out and it's crew trained up and operating at optimal peak efficiency. Other issues were ignored for sake of playability.

[irondog068]

Still does not help her poor fuel quality and the fact that she was rushed into being converted into a flat top. the only picture I saw of her was through the Acherfish periscope! Neat idea but I could think of a better way for the IJN to spend 35 points, like Kamakazies! Now that was a weapon system that worked.

Irondog