Whats the Strongest 200 point Fleet?

[X35X]

Hello everyone, I'm a new member, but have been playing WaS for a while now, and I was just wondering what everones opinion would be on the strongest 200 point fleet for the Germans, the Japanese, the Americans, and the British.

[shermanM4A1]

Japanese:
2x Yamato (140)
1x Kongo (35)
1x Yukikaze (12)
1x I-19 (13)

Note: point costs are in parentheses.

[gcrutch]

Japanese:
2x Yamato (140)
1x Kongo (35)
1x Yukikaze (12)
1x I-19 (13)

Note: point costs are in parentheses.

Maybe the strongest surface fleet, however, with Dauntless x 3 and Devastator x 3 on board two Enterprise carriers, I'll bet I can sink your Yamatos before they get within gun range... :)

My point is that this fleet is somewhat open to air attack.

[Cinnibar]

Maybe the strongest surface fleet, however, with Dauntless x 3 and Devastator x 3 on board two Enterprise carriers, I'll bet I can sink your Yamatos before they get within gun range... :)

My point is that this fleet is somewhat open to air attack.

I'd bet against you. You have five turns at best before the Yamatos claim all the objectives, unless you run forward to contest. You have about the same amount of time before they engage your carriers.

Even with 12 dice, the Dauntless only hits the Yamato (10 armor) 27.5% of the time. So every 2 turns, you can hope (if 2 Dauntlesses get through each turn) to do a point of damage. Even if you're spectacularly lucky and hit twice as often, you've only done 4 of the 12 points that you need to do to sink the two Yamatos.

The Devestators, should they survive AA, will have 2 dice of torpedoes each. Let's assume that 2 Devestators get through a turn, so a total of 4 torpedo dice a turn, averaging (after torpedo defense 1) .66 points of damage per turn. In 5 turns, your damage expectation would be about 3 points.

Combine that with the 4 points or so you've done with the Dauntlesses, and you've at best sunk one of the two Yamatos, and the other (with the Kongo and Yukikaze) has steamrolled you.

The assumption is that you'd have no other forces on the board, but that you'd also lose no aircraft. Against the Kongo and Yamato's AA, I'd expect to lose at lease one Devestator per three sortied EACH TURN. (7 dice vs 6 vital... 32.7% success). The odds of smacking a Dauntless out of the sky are about 8.1% ... not high, but the abort ratio is about 51.7%...

I don't see the Americans winning that engagement.

[Sean-Khan]

Except that 2x Enterprise & 6 bombers are somewhere around 120 points. 2 fighters (if not sure about opponent) and 2 spare bombers leave room for about 6 fletchers, which with current rules will be able to contest AND be serious risk to battleships. Leaving fighters away (in case of knowing what carriers are facing) leaves room for 2 more destroyers.

Still, 3 such battleships is a fearsome force, and it's not easy to destroy them.

[LoneWolf]

2x Yamato
3x I-19

would be pretty strong.

Though I have no idea how this would work with the new rules.

But a question "what is the strongest fleet ?" is a bit of a "there is no answer" type of question.

The strongest fleet is any well constructed fleet.

Though some fleets are definatly scarier then others.

[Cinnibar]

Except that 2x Enterprise & 6 bombers are somewhere around 120 points. 2 fighters (if not sure about opponent) and 2 spare bombers leave room for about 6 fletchers, which with current rules will be able to contest AND be serious risk to battleships. Leaving fighters away (in case of knowing what carriers are facing) leaves room for 2 more destroyers.

Still, 3 such battleships is a fearsome force, and it's not easy to destroy them.

The problem with this fleet is that the IJN surface fleet won't be overwhelmed by 6 or even 8 Fletchers. Most of the Fletchers would be destroyed at range. You'd need twice the number for an effective swarm attack.

Either you overwhelm with air, or you overwhelm with destroyers. The stacking limitation tends to limit the air's chances of successfully eliminating either Yamato prior to it's claiming objectives, so I'd say that a Fletcher-swarm or even a PT-boat swarm would be the most effective against the IJN fleet.

The PT swarm would be more effective against the battleships and provide greater torpedo concentration at point-blank range, plus the PT boats would be able to roll avoidance on all ship attacks and be immune to the Yukikaze's long-lance torpedoes.

At 200 points, a fleet of :

PT boats x20 (120 points)
Barb (or Truculent) x3 (36 points)
Tennessee x1 (43 points)

Would probably be most effective against the dual-Yamato fleet, it would definitely create havoc amongst them.

If I chose to go the air route against this IJN force...

1x Enterprise (25 points)
1x Ark Royal (22 points)
5x Dauntless (39 points)
6x Swordfish (30 points)
2x Catalina (bonus dice for Dauntless/Swordfish) (14 points)
1x Truculent (12 points)

Between the Ark Royal, Catalina, and Swordfish, I can (if one gets through) get a 5-dice torpedo attack with the possibility of halting a Battleship completely. The Swordfish may get aborted more often than the Devestators, but they have the same vital armor, much better torpedo dice, and an excellent SA for this situation.

I'm pretty much guaranteed getting two Swordfish in on runs per turn (as at best, the enemy can only shoot at two of four in a sector), so I'd be looking at 8+ torpedo dice on one Yamato (11 if a third Swordfish gets through), plus a Dauntless bombardment of the Yukikaze/Kongo.

My priority is to eliminate the Yamato escorts if they Yamatos split to increase my Air attack effectiveness. If the Yamatos pair up, I send nothing but Swordfish at them while the Dauntlesses pound the Kongo/Yukikaze. I have plenty of land-based Swordfish and Dauntlesses to allow a full 4/sector attack on two sectors, plus backups if I lose a few. The Catalinas will spot my primary targets (likely the Yamatos) each turn for the Swordfish and/or harass the sub if it's in range. I prefer to use a spare swordfish if I have to harass the sub, though.

An alternative build with a similar strategy would be :

2x Princeton (32)
1x Ark Royal (22)
4x Dauntless (52)
8x Swordfish (80)
2x Catalina (14)

[X35X]

well I've seen many different replies now, and many good arguments. Since I don't really play as the JP, Germans, or British that much I wanted to see what you would all come up with, and it was very interesting. I have a ton of American stuff though and I think I've been able to make a really powerful fleet, here it is.

Iowa x1 (68)
Baltimore x1 (18)
PT Boat x1 (6)
Enterprize x1 (25)
Princeton x1 (16)
Wildcat x2 (14)
Dauntless x3 (39)
PBY Catalina x2 (14)

This Fleet hardly ever fails me. Because with three Dauntless, and two PBY's that can give me up to a total of 13,12,11 dice roles, meaning 1 dauntless will role 13, another will role 12, and the last 11, because of the expert bombers from the carriers and the shadowing ability from the PBY. Then I have the Wildcats incase of any air attacks. I also have my surface ships the Iowa and the Baltimore to go and finish off the damaged ships (supposing they are damaged and my planes didn't get blown out the sky in the first air phase), also if the ships are damaged then my 2 ships still have their extended range and can fire on the others before the other ships get close. They can also claim some objectives before the enemy does. and I've the PT boat just for fun. I haven't played or even seen these new rules yet so the PT boat usually dies very quickly, but it's still fun to play.

[Sean-Khan]

The problem with this fleet is that the IJN surface fleet won't be overwhelmed by 6 or even 8 Fletchers. Most of the Fletchers would be destroyed at range. You'd need twice the number for an effective swarm attack.

Either you overwhelm with air, or you overwhelm with destroyers. The stacking limitation tends to limit the air's chances of successfully eliminating either Yamato prior to it's claiming objectives, so I'd say that a Fletcher-swarm or even a PT-boat swarm would be the most effective against the IJN fleet.


Catalina, of course it should be included... I forgot about the craft :o

At the time when destroyers engage, aircraft have attacked the ships three times; Maybe subs would be better alternative, but I go on with this idea. A lot depends on initiative - with all the aircraft, time is on US side. It will be risky to let Japanese take 2 objectives, though, so if they move to center first (I probably would), Fletchers need more likely to divide - unless dice for initiative is on their side. If it is, It's likely that one of the Yamato's is at least crippled at 3rd turn - or is holding back and not trying to claim counters.

The situation really is a lot about initiative.

[LoneWolf]

I have actualy had a quite a bit of success with a build looking like.

x2 Rodney (or switch a rodney for a washintgon, for obvious reasons slow1 can be a pain if you have to roll for it twice)
1x ark royal
fighters
and subs

[Cinnibar]

Iowa x1 (68)
Baltimore x1 (18)
PT Boat x1 (6)
Enterprize x1 (25)
Princeton x1 (16)
Wildcat x2 (14)
Dauntless x3 (39)
PBY Catalina x2 (14)


It's a decent mix, but I think I'd drop the PT Boat and one of the two Catalinas in favor of an extra Dauntless. It's nice to run 4 in a sector when you don't have enemy fighters to deal with, and it provides a backup if you prefer to run 3 and lose one to AA.

Unless I know my enemy isn't fielding aircraft, I'm generally hesitant to field any Catalinas unless I'm pretty sure I'll have air superiority. It's risky because they're so darn fragile. In a 200-point game, I'd almost suggest ditching them entirely because you're only fielding 6-7 aircraft in these builds, and your opponent is likely to match that.

Either way, a heavy sub force is going to be a real pain for you unless you field subs of your own.

[Jameson]

Iowa x1 (68)
Baltimore x1 (18)
PT Boat x1 (6)
Enterprize x1 (25)
Princeton x1 (16)
Wildcat x2 (14)
Dauntless x3 (39)
PBY Catalina x2 (14)



I would personally lose one of the Catalinas, the Princeton, and the PT Boat. Invest these points in Atlantas and Fletchers for more AA and ASW. You don't really have enough strike aircraft to warrant two Catalinas or the Princeton.

[polish_horsy]

Iowa x2
Baltimore x2
Fletcher x4

something like that would be tough. but I have no idea what the rules are these days.

[X35X]

The thing with 2 Catalinas is that if the enemy does have alot of planes and some of which are fighters, then when i place down my last 2 planes (the catalinas) the enemy may place 1 fighter if they only have 1 left, which in that case no matter what I will get my shadowing ability. Not to mention that the Catalina has some descent ASW dice. Another thing is if the enemy ships are in or within range 2 of their own subs, i can place down a couple of dauntless's and then my catalinas and be able to do my shadowing ability and do depth charges or ASW role. I only play the PT boat because it is fun, not everything has to be super good and super strong, it's a funny little 6 point boat. I think the Princeton is a good 16 point carrier, and a couple of pluses in having it is I can have 2 more carrier based planes, and it gives 1 of my other dauntless's an expert bomber, not to mention that it also has the same AA role as an Enterprize or an Atlanta (though it can't role it's AA dice twice like the Atlanta). I'd like the idea of 4 dauntless, but if I put 4 in a sector and the enemy has aircraft then I won't get my escort ability, or if I do put my fighter with 3 bombers, then I will have 1 lonely bomber. That not to mention can only come out every other turn. I'd also like the idea of haveing an atlanta, though that means I'd have to drop the princeton at least which means more land based planes, the Atlanta does come in handy but I think wildcats do too, especially if they are defending the flat top and getting expert fighter, which means 2 9 dice roles compared to 2 8 dice roles (which must be used against different targets), with the wildcats I can shoot at the same target until it goes away.

I guess I will have to read that new rule on destroyiers, because all of a sudden they seem to be very useful and good.

[der Meisterschütze]

I played this combo against an American carrier fleet heavy with bombers and USS Atlantas.

Yamato x2
I-19 x2
Zeke X5 or 6

I placed my Yamatos in the same sector throughout the game and went right up the middle. I used my Zekes as anti-air support for my Yamatos. The other player never scratched my armor with his bombers even with all of the modifiers his carriers gave him. Once I collected the first objective I just picked off his carriers, taking several planes with them. Now I must admit that luck was involved in some of the dice rolls against my Yamatos, but an armor rating of 10 sure helps. I think I only lost one sub that whole game.

[TheJudge]

In 200 point games, any fleet with 2 Iowa's or 2 Yamato is going to be tough to beat.

USN- 200

Iowa x2- 136
Enterprise- 25
Atlanta- 12
Wildcat x2- 14
Dauntless 13
200 on the nose

This fleet has ZERO ASW though but is perfectly balanced otherwise. Option 2 is-

Iowa x2- 136
Catalina x2- 14
Wildcat x2-14
Atlanta x2- 24
Sam B Roberts x2- 12
200 pts
The Wildcats protect the Catalina's pretty well, the Cats sub hunt along with SBR's and Iowa's pulverize enemy ships and take objectives and if a plane gets through that kind of AA, it's just plain bad luck. 2 shots of 8 with Atlanta and 1 shot of 9 with Iowa? HA! Good luck attacking that with planes.

For Japan, it's sheer muscle.

Yamato x2- 140
Shokaku- 20
Val x2- 20
Zero x2- 12
Betty - 6
198 pts

Hardly ideal at 198 but 1 Yamato can hang with Shokaku while it's Val's sink anything smaller that are trying to swipe an objective. Expert Bomber 2 is no joke. The only thing worse than facing Yamato is facing 2 of them. Even submarines have a hard time against them with 6 hull points. If Yamato's sink the enemy ships and get the extra victory points for that, it doesn't matter how many subs they have. Betty is for ASW, not the best plane for that but naturally the IJN got stiffed on AA and ASW.

Matchups are tricky. An Iowa and a heavy US sub fleet can beat the Yamato's with some decent dice rolls but not easily. It's a tribute to how massive the Yamato is in this game.

[XAos]

200pt fleet
25 Enterprise
21 3xWildcat
15 3xHurricane
14 2xCatalina
26 2xDauntless
60 5xTruculent
18 Baltimore
21 3xFlectcher
If the game is without the rules amendments.
Drop Baltimore & the 3 fletchers for 3 more subs.
You can juggle the exact ratio of Dauntles/Hurricane/Wildcat to fit the points limit. so long as you don't drop below 6 fighters.

[Bismarck]

I´m rooting for any build that doesn´t include a Yamato or Iowa.

I sort of feel sorry for the USS Washington which actually sank something in the war but hardly sees play because people rather just field multiple Iowas.

Yamato and Musashi might have been beasts but they did not have good fortune or good command in the war.
It just feels strange for those ships to suddenly gain the aura of invulnerability in the game.

[TheJudge]

I´m rooting for any build that doesn´t include a Yamato or Iowa.

I sort of feel sorry for the USS Washington which actually sank something in the war but hardly sees play because people rather just field multiple Iowas.

Yamato and Musashi might have been beasts but they did not have good fortune or good command in the war.
It just feels strange for those ships to suddenly gain the aura of invulnerability in the game.


Well, that's understandable but sort of unfair also.

Take Bismarck for example. It was a fine ship but also got it's aura of invincibility DURING the war and certainly wasn't invincible.

The Iowa's were the finest battleships ever built. The Yamato's were the largest and had the biggest guns so it's perception is justified. They have to be the biggest, baddest units in the game, hard to sink, could take on anything.

The trick is, the rules of the game make them better than they really were. Let's say in a 200 point game that we have the following fleets:

USN-

Enterprise x3- 75
SBD x6 78
Wildcat x3 21
Barb x2 26
200 points
VS

Yamato- 70
Tone 23
Myoko 24
Shokaku- 20
Val x2 20
Zeke 6
Yukikaze x3- 36
199 points

On a silly map that is not very big, the IJN fleet should close in and start shooting aircraft carriers left and right, correct?

In real life, the US planes should swarm the IJN ships long before they come into gunnery range, correct?

The rules allow cruisers and battleships and destroyers to fire on aircraft carriers because of the limited map and the size of the squares.

The rules DO NOT allow more than 4 planes per side in a square which, when you think about it, doesn't make a whole lot of sense. 5,000 yards wide, 50 football fields, that should be enough room to squeeze 300-400 planes in formation. :confused:

The rules constrict what you really should be able to do and allow some things that almost never happened aisde from HMS Victorious? and Taffy 3.

[Grifter]

Scharnhorst - 38
Bismark - 53
Z-20 Karl Galster - 8
5 U-510 - 55
5 FW200 Kondor - 30
2 Ju87 Stuka - 14

For a 198-points fleet.

Quite handsome, no ? No Big Stick, no Yamato... Just wolves and so on...

[Bismarck]

The Iowa's were the finest battleships ever built. The Yamato's were the largest and had the biggest guns so it's perception is justified. They have to be the biggest, baddest units in the game, hard to sink, could take on anything.


Agreed. But that doesn´t mean Yamato and Iowa should necessarily be the most playable ships in the game.
The construction of Yamato and Musashi was extremely expensive and I´m sure Iowa was very costly too.
In my opinion this should be reflected better in the game, those ships should perhaps be more of a luxury than necessity.

[Uncle_Joe]

Unfortunately, I'm fairly certain that current tournaments will again demonstrate the superiority of the BBs (particularly the largest BBs) and the Subs over the other elements in the game.

I mean what's better than playing with the Iowa or Yamato? Well, thats easy...playing with TWO Iowa's or Yamatos. Ditto for subs. There is no reason to go half-@ssed with them. Use 'em en masse. Use the BBs to cover for them and take out DD (even the Secondaries and Tertiaries can do it with ease) and use a few available Fighters to hold off the (largely ineffective anyways) ASW aircraft. Claim one objective to make sure you cant lose without both BBs going down and boom...its pretty much game over for any fleet that isnt heavy on BBs and/or Subs.

I've seen it happen time and time again and I see nothing to really change that dynamic. So it stands to reason that the 200 point fleets that will be the most effective will be the ones that use multiple Yamatos/Iowa and/or a mass of submarines + a bit of support.

[TheJudge]

Agreed. But that doesn´t mean Yamato and Iowa should necessarily be the most playable ships in the game.
The construction of Yamato and Musashi was extremely expensive and I´m sure Iowa was very costly too.
In my opinion this should be reflected better in the game, those ships should perhaps be more of a luxury than necessity.


It is better reflected in the game, they cost 68 and 70 points respectively, far and away, the most expensive ships in the game. The next closest costing ship is 56 points for USS Washington and 54? for Richilieu and that stands to reason, they were big, bad fighting ships but not on the scale of Iowa or Yamato.

How much should they be to reflect their superiority and dollar cost?

A Fletcher cost probably 1/10th to build as an Iowa and it happens to be about 1/10th the cost in the game. Pretty cool huh? Actually, a Fletcher probably cost about 1/40 of an Iowa when you really think about it. I might look that up if I feel like it, the costs of some ships but consider that there were well over 100 Fletchers built and 4 Iowa's.......

Iowa and Yamato seem very correctly priced in the game to me. They are the 2 most dominant ships but are not unbeatable. I prefer to play other ships so I can actually have more units to move and do things with but for sheer terror and muscle, you can't beat those 2 ships.

[polish_horsy]

A Fletcher cost probably 1/10th to build as an Iowa and it happens to be about 1/10th the cost in the game. Pretty cool huh? Actually, a Fletcher probably cost about 1/40 of an Iowa when you really think about it.

I expect your 1/40th number is getting warm. So maybe the Iowa should cost 280 points and have vital armor of 8.

[TheJudge]

I expect your 1/40th number is getting warm. So maybe the Iowa should cost 280 points and have vital armor of 8.

Yes, exactly. :D

I think it is priced just fine in relation to other battleships and shows it's superiority accordingly.

If you want to open another can of worms, Fletcher, Enterprise, Baltimore, and Wildcat are under priced but that's a different thread.

[Cinnibar]

Is the Iowa REALLY overpowered under the new rules?

Let's see... can it defeat a roughly-even sized force of Yukikazes?

6 Yukikazes = 72 points
should be slightly more powerful than...
1 Iowa = 68 points.

Ok, let's assume nothing else is on the board, and the IJN player stays at range 4+ until he or she wins initiative and/or pins the Iowa. We'll give him the massive advantage of ideal positioning, perfect initiative rolls, etc.

From range 4, if they get a run at the Iowa, the Yukikazes could get to range 2 if the Iowa didn't move or was pinned on the edge of the board or lost initiative or whatever, right?

So we'll hold them at range 2 and see what happens in successive turns...

Turn 1 : Iowa probably kills.... 2 Yukikazes. And that's with lucky shots
The 6 Yukikazes fire a total of (6x2) 12 long-lance torpedoes at the Iowa. They should average 2 hits, for a total of 4 damage (3-1=2 per hit). The Iowa is down to 2 hull points...

Turn 2: Iowa kills another 2 Yukikazes. The 4 Yukikazes fire torpedoes in the same phase and get 8 dice. They get an average of 1.33 hits, or a damage expectation the second turn of... 2.66 damage on the second turn. The Iowa probably dies, and two Yukikazes probably steam onward.

Turn 3: Ok, just to press the point, if the Iowa somehow lasted this long, the Yukes get off another 4 torpedoes this turn, averaging 0.66 hits, or a damage expectation of 1.33. The average damage expectation for the Iowa at this point would be 8 points... more than enough to sink it, even if it takes out all the Yukikazes

Hrm. Looks like the Iowa is outmatched, eh? The Yukikazes would probably sink it in an ideal position...

Let's try the Yamato (70 points) against a ridiculous swarm of PT boats (10 boats). We'll also simplify this mess by assuming that the USN player wins initiative and has ideal positioning each turn.

Turn 1 : From outside range (range 4), the 10 PT boats charge (yee-HAA!!) into range 1 when they win initiative. The Yamato, kills 2 after shots and evasion and whatnot. The 10 fire 2 torpedoes each in response (20 torpedoes) averaging 3.33 hits... or 3.33 damage the first turn they engage after torpedo defense kicks in. We'll round down and assume the Yamato takes 3 damage this turn.

Turn 2 : The 8 remaining PT Boats, faster than the Yamato, close to point-blank range. The Yamato kills two more PT boats, and the 24 torpedoes unleashed (3 each at range-0) result in an average of 4 hits, doing 4 damage.... and the Yamato is history.

Turn 3 : If the Yamato survived this long, the 6 remaining PT's would get off another 18 torpedo shots, averaging 3 hits, for 3 more damage.

Turn 4 : 4 PT's left get 12 dice... averaging another 2 hits...

Turn 5 : The last two PT's (who the Yamato kils this turn), get 6 dice of torpedoes and average another hit...

After five turns of blowing up PT's, the Yamato would take on average 13.33 points of damage in this overly simplified scenario

Hrm...

I'm going on ebay and buying up all the PT boats now...

[polish_horsy]

Seriously though... vital armor of 8 would be OK for the Iowa. Just give it a cost of 105. Then you'll never see it in a 100 point fleet. Just as it never would have appeared without some serious backing in a real fight. Yamato could have vital of 9 and cost 110. Other BB's could be increased in a similar fashion. But then you'd have to have some degradatrion of the effective fighting ability of the ship as it takes damage.

[Cinnibar]

Yes, I realize that the above scenario over-simplifies things massively in favor of the swarm tactics, but I don't think it's unrealistic that a well-executed swarm force can consistantly beat a Yamato or Iowa-centric force. The largest barrier at this point, IMHO, is the relatively fragility of destroyers and PT boats against air attack... which, frankly, is ridiculous. PT boats should have at least an evade roll against air attack given the small size and relative speed... and the destroyers still suffer from Wildcat-overpowerment.

I think, at this point, Air beats Swarm tactics. Swarm tactics can probably beat Battleships. Battleships probably beat Air most times... If it wasn't for subs throwing a monkeywrench into the mess, I'm sure that we'd be pretty close to a rock-paper-scissors balance, or at least ten times closer than we were prior to the rule revision.

[Cinnibar]

Seriously though... vital armor of 8 would be OK for the Iowa. Just give it a cost of 105. Then you'll never see it in a 100 point fleet. Just as it never would have appeared without some serious backing in a real fight. Yamato could have vital of 9 and cost 110. Other BB's could be increased in a similar fashion. But then you'd have to have some degradatrion of the effective fighting ability of the ship as it takes damage.

Wait.. what? That'd be LOWERING the vital armor...

[Wehrmact_Tiger]

Wait.. what? That'd be LOWERING the vital armor...

I think he meant "hull points"

[Engineer]

I used to like playing one huge figs in games. All it takes is one bad roll for the downhill slide to start. Playing a swarm evens out the dice rolls (both good and bad).

[TK421]

I've said on other threads, but six Yukikazes are a threat to an Iowa now. Wildcats are less of a threat to the destroyers now. In a 100 point game when the Iowa player does not know what he is going to face it can be hard to chose the optimal escort.

Against a Yukikaze swarm having a cruiser along as escort can make all the difference. The ability to get fairly effective Range 3 shots can change the outcome (the Atlanta doesn't fit the bill as well here). Having a couple of Fletchers can also help. A Dauntless can also be nasty, but in a 100 point match choices are limited.

[Uncle_Joe]

Cinnibar, having gamed out that example a good number of times (and Yamato vs Fletcher swarm), its not NEARLY as favorable for the DDs in practice. There are often shoals or islands that prevent the DDs from getting massed up properly. And even if there arent, the stack limitations work against the swarm.

The BB also will have a flag bonus, unlike the DDs. And that means a much better chance of initiative which is critical to controlling the engagement opportunities. If the DDs spread out to threaten multiple objectives, the BB charges for one and once it gets it, the DDs must eliminate the BB to win. If the DDs concentrate, they are putting absolutely no time pressure on the BB and will run into stacking/engagement problems, particularly if they dont have the initiative....the BB can pick at the edges and rarely have to face the full mass.

Finally, the biggest 'problem' there is that even in a 100 point game, the BB is not going to be alone. The difference here is that any support for the BB is likely to be able to take out DDs whereas the opposite is not necessarily true. For example, adding a few Fighters and a few Bombers or Patrol planes to the BB gives a good chance of smoking (or at least crippling) a few DDs before they can even engage. Not so vs the large BB who will often shrug off or abort such attacks.

Subs added to the mix might tend to favor the DDs, but if so, only marginally. The DDs cant use ASW and fire Torpedoes so Subs can force the choice on the DDs. Also, subs outrange DDs (considerably for the I-19), meaning that they can hang back and just chuck torpedoes into the mass. If they hit, a DD goes away.

Also note that the BBs can usually cripple about 3 DDs per turn (or sink with a lucky Main Gun hit). This is especially true for Yamato with her R:3 Secondaries. The DDs swarms evaporate pretty quickly under that fire and fire from subs or supporting aircraft.

Dont get me wrong, I dont think the DDs will always lose that matchup (they occasionally took the win in my test engagements), but they are not a 'better' build. And given that they are vulnerable to just about any other build that comes along (severely vulnerable vs aircraft), they just arent that viable IMO. Pound for pound the Japanese DDs still have a hard time beating Subs! The Allied DDs come off better vs Subs, but even they will struggle vs subs supported by Kondors (which not only add to the subs, but can cripple/sink DDs with immunity).

IMO, in order for BBs/Subs to not be top dog every time, a DD swarm should have to be able to win convincingly. And currently, they dont. Not at all. Without that, why take units are incredibly vulnerable to almost anything and which are going to struggle against many other types of builds you might encounter? If you are looking for the 'best' builds, they will still involve large BBs and Subs with support despite the rules changes.

[TheJudge]

That's assuming you have 6 Yukikaze's against just the Iowa of course which is bound to be a very rare occurrence right?

In a 100 point game?

Iowa-68
Baltimore-18
Wildcat x2 -14 100 pts

VS

Yukikaze x8 - 96
Subchaser- 4 100 points

Advantage who?

200 points? It gets even worse for the IJN me thinks but I can see where the swarm would really get nasty. 200 points-

US
Iowa x2 - 136
Atlanta - 12
Enterprise-25
SBD- 13
Wildcat x2- 14

200 points- a pretty balanced, tough fleet right?

VS

Yukikaze x16- 192
Subchaser x2- 8

200

Holy long lances Batman! :eek:

16 destroyers who are very tough to hit by battleships?

On the normal, out of the box map, it SHOULD be a slaughter for the IJN under the new rules. Even 2 Iowas can not hold off that many ships. The planes should be able to cripple and/or sink 3 or 4 before the IJN comes rushing in or pins the 2 BB's. Might be worth a playtest to see.

The PT boat example is just plain wrong. lol

200 point "fleet"

PT Boat x33= 198 points

Speed 3, High speed evasion but can't claim objectives. Rats. Back up a tick.

Iowa- 68
Pt Boat x22- 132

200 and now you have a buff battleship that can grab an objective or 3.

Wait, not enough squares on the map? Is there a rule for that? A limit on ships? Not that I recall.

I for one would not like to play a fleet like that but it sure would interesting to do once and never do it again. Could you imagine rolling 44 torpedo dice at range 1 or 66 at range 2? Holy busted armor belt Batman!

Funny stuff.

[Galland77]

I was anihilated today by 1 lonly yamato.......
I tried my 200 pts carrier fleet:
3 Bigs E
3 wildcats
2 devastators
4 dauntress
2 catalinas
1 atlanta
1 fletcher

there was no problem with the rest of the 130 IJN pts.....
but the yamato himself took out all my ships and 1/3 of my bombers and I coudn't damage it!!!:( :confused:

[X35X]

Cinnibar, in your swarm example, you made it seem as if the Iowa only had extented range 4, not 5. In the game the Iowa would be able to shoot at the Yukikaze's from 4 and 5 squares away, making it so it would take out more Yukikaze's before they could get close.

[Uncle_Joe]

If playing with the revised rules, Extended Range cant hit DDs so it doesnt matter if its 4 or 5 for purposes that this exercise.

[polish_horsy]

Wait.. what? That'd be LOWERING the vital armor...

woops. I did indeed mean Hull Points. It was not impossible to damage a battleship to some degree but was very hard to sink one.