German Commerce Raiders in WAS?

[carl_brisgamer]

I would like to see the addition of a German surface raiders in the next WAS set. I first read about them when I was just a kid and they have always fired my imagination. From March 1940 to October 1943 nine German surface raiders effectively used deception against both Allied merchantmen and warships. These disguised auxiliary cruisers sank or captured 140 ships (including the HMAS Sydney), totaling over one million tons, and greatly disrupted British and American shipping in the South Atlantic, Pacific, and Indian Oceans. The ships were Atlantis, Thor, Orion, Widder, Pinguin, Komet, Kormoran, Michel and Stier.

Two questions for those with more experience than I at this game:

Is there a place for these ships in WAS?

What sort of abilities would best simulate their employment?

[Grifter]

Hey, pleased to see some other people knows about those corsairs :D

Count them as eleven, as Thor and Komet went twice at sea ;)

Friends and I decided to field them using the Nordmark stats, only Armor 2 instead of 1 and Repair changed to Torpedo 1 at range 0 (ask the Sidney...), for an identical cost.

Some on us point that Armor should stay at 1, with Stier being sunk by a Liberty Ship as main argument. On the other hand, the Thor fought againt three "light" (auxiliary) cruisers and survived even after some hits.

Nevertheless, those ships could only be fielded in convoy-hunting or "escape" scenarios without overmuch air suport (nothing more than a Catalina, I think), as in a "true" naval battle, their survivability would be unsure at best...

['Warspite']

The problem is that that disguised merchant raiders relied on deceipt and subterfuge to operate and were not much good in a stand-up fight - except for Kormoran and she was an extreme example of deceipt and subterfuge in action. She needed it to be able to get into a position to fight.

As WAS is all about stand-up fights I cannot think of a realistic way to work a raider into a game unless it is to give the ship a saving roll when first challenged by a warship. If the raider passes the challenge the warship cannot re-challenge and moves on.

It should be noted that most ships failed this 'saving roll' as many German vessels were intercepted either on the basis of Ultra de-crypts or else good old fashioned radio direction finding... getting two bearings on the strength of the raider's radio traffic and targeting ships into the area.

It was Ultra de-crypts which allowed the Milch cow submarines and many of the deep ocean depot ships and tankers to be hunted down.

I would suggest that the saving roll would only by 5 or 6 at best which means there is a 1-4 chance that your disguised raider is blown to pieces at a range where it cannot use its torpedoes.

Not really playable is it?

[TheJudge]

I agree. The merchant raider is an important ship that deserves to be represented here but as they were designed to attack merchant shipping and not other warships, it is hard to incorporate them into the game.

One way is to have an SA as follows:

Auxillary Cruiser or Ship of Deception(whatever):

When this ship is within range of an enemy vessel, roll, a dice. On a 6, this ship may be attacked as normal, on any other result, this ship may not be attacked.

This will represent, very nicely, the German ships disguise and sneakiness so they could approach unsuspecting ships flying a Spanish or Dutch flag(or whatever) and then attack when in their best range.

Obviously, as players, we will know what the ship is but unless we rolled a 6, we have to ignore it. That will work.

[Barry Kendall]

Actually, Warspite, while I agree with you on the stealth/deception issue, I do believe there is a place in WAS for raiders.

Their armament--possibly as many as four 5.9" or 6" guns, plus torpedoes--meant they outgunned destroyers (except, possibly, for the number of torpedoes) and outranged them as well.

While their gunpower doesn't match them up with a typical light cruiser, their range gives them a standoff capability vs. common convoy escorts that makes them a challenge in convoy scenarios.

The deception factor should give them the potential to close range while their innocent act holds up. A SA allowing them to negate hostile intentions (perhaps on a successful die roll each turn) would make them an interesting addition and offer some suspenseful scenarios.

I would actually like to see Armed Merchant Cruisers as well for an additional convoy escort type (as well as giving submarines a surface attack/deck gun capability). AMCs, or "auxiliary cruisers," were nowhere near as well armed as light cruisers and, in fact, were inferior to German raiders because they were, as I'm sure you know, converted freighters. However, the name "Jervis Bay" comes to mind as one example of an AMC that gave a good account of herself against overwhelming opposition.

A few of these ships also carried a catapult-launched Hurricane fighter, giving them some "eyes" and the potential to force a sub to dive (and, perhaps, thereby be outdistanced by the convoy she was stalking). While the rules at present do not explicitly allow subs to be "suppressed," the experimental rules being bandied about will in all likelihood eventually result in more historical, and hopefully more varied, surface-sub interaction in which such a device might be useful.

A couple of AMCs and a Corvette or two (another needed Set II type) vs. a German Surface Raider would make for an interesting Convoy scenario.

I realize the common focus for many players is the big ships, but as a longtime naval gamer I can vouch for the excitement, variety and replayability of small-ship actions; these, after all, numbered in the hundreds in every theater of war, far more than large-ship engagements.

I'd love to see a Raider.

[Richter von Manthofen]

I did some naval engagements lately (as part of a longer campaign) between the Kriegsmarine and Royal Navy in 1939. Two times a Nordmark killed an Javelin (battling for an objective) one escaped unscathed (as part of a winning Kriegsmarine) the second time it limped away (nordmark) as sole survivor of a battered up German taskforce (aside from two Stukas)

I found that in a campaign game (nations are limited by what was available, so no multiple Ark Royals and only 2 Rodneys and a single Hood in 1939) even the little ships, like DDs, Cruisers are important. Games are more challenging than simple BB/SUBS vs BB/SUBS

[aquarius]

A friend and I made up a convoy scenario, and we managed to figure out how to use the Nordmark. When it first entered the game (we rolled to see which units would come in and where), the convoy player would roll. On a 1-5, he accepted the Nordmark and treated it as a convoy ship. On a 6 he would attack it like any other. At the start of each turn, he would roll to "detect" the Nordmark. 1-4 it stayed hidden, 5-6 he found out. The German player could decide when to use the Nordmark in a surprise attack. It worked out well.

[Jameson]

The problem is that that disguised merchant raiders relied on deceipt and subterfuge to operate and were not much good in a stand-up fight - except for Kormoran and she was an extreme example of deceipt and subterfuge in action. She needed it to be able to get into a position to fight.

As WAS is all about stand-up fights I cannot think of a realistic way to work a raider into a game unless it is to give the ship a saving roll when first challenged by a warship. If the raider passes the challenge the warship cannot re-challenge and moves on.

It should be noted that most ships failed this 'saving roll' as many German vessels were intercepted either on the basis of Ultra de-crypts or else good old fashioned radio direction finding... getting two bearings on the strength of the raider's radio traffic and targeting ships into the area.

It was Ultra de-crypts which allowed the Milch cow submarines and many of the deep ocean depot ships and tankers to be hunted down.

I would suggest that the saving roll would only by 5 or 6 at best which means there is a 1-4 chance that your disguised raider is blown to pieces at a range where it cannot use its torpedoes.

Not really playable is it?

I'll have to agree with 'Warspite' on this one. Well I like the idea of commerce raiders, with the exception of convoy scenario's, I don't see how they could be much use in a regular battle. Maybe to use up some leftover points if they're cheap enough.

This deception idea is a little hard to pull off in my opinion. The raider is challenged but rolls (insert your method of determining detection). Now what? The raider continues on, but the other player KNOWS it's a raider and will likely keep shadowing it with a destroyer or cruiser, or have an air unit ready to pounce the second it decides to attack. I'll concede that maybe the raider would make a good distraction, tying down ships to hunt it as they did in real life. In my opinion, that is for more of a strategic level game than a tactical one like WAS.

OK, so the raider decides to attack. Now what? In all fairness, on a board this small (even two maps put together) realistically, the raider should be considered "discovered" by all opposing units. I don't see it lasting more than one turn after it takes it's cheap shot. Realistically the raider should be able to be challenged by a Catalina using a signal lamp, which in turn is a cheap low-cost way to challenge the raider every turn. Also subs should be able to challenge raiders, and would be a great way to end their existence as raiders should not be allowed any effective anti-sub, realistically.

All I know is that if people start using raiders in WAS in the manner that this thread is suggesting, I see the following lame things happening:

1-Raiders skulking along the outskirts of the map, waiting for the moment a carrier becomes exposed. (which in no way is what these units were designed for or how they were ever employed). Possibly with a 12-point raider (if they are made with a fair cost) tying up a 13-point CL like the Boise.

2-Raiders being challenged every turn by a Catalina, sub, or a PT boat (all of which, technically should be allowed).

In a convoy or raider-hunting scenario, a raider would obviously be great, but not in a standard match. It all just seems like a side-show that would take away from the main game.

[weedsrock2]

Once I again I think I am seeing the "don't waste a valuable ship slot for THAT" worry coming into play here. I agree with both 'sides' that 1) a converted merchant commerce raider would be pretty useless in a standard fleet tournament game, but 2) it would be a fun piece to have for specific convoy and small ship scenarios. I have always included Kormoran in my 'wish lists' although any of the German raiders would do. The Kriegsmarine is going to run out of ships by Set III anyway and I think there should be room for some ships and planes that are really scenario specific rather than just tournament focused. Especially by Set III and beyond unless we want those sets to be US, Japan, and UK only. The only issue is making sure they don't end up as tournament 'cheese' as Jameson pointed out. That should be manageable by thinking through the SA conditions a bit.

[dracos42]

Another possibility for using merchant raiders are scenarios where the raiders are meeting regular German warships. Say a raider, the Graf Spee, and some U-boats are gathered together with a supply ship. Or the raider is transferring supplies to the cruisers and U-boats. A patrol plane spots them and guides in Force H (Ark Royal and Hood), or a cruiser force runs across them.

The merchant raiders could be used in a campaign game where there is operational scale movement, with WAS being used to fight the tactical battles.

Mike L.

['Warspite']

There might be scope for a 'shell game' [no pun] approach here.

As part of a table-top game several dummy markers or models are deployed. When an Allied warship gets within one square it may challenge the dummy marker by die roll.

Some may be genuine merchant ships requiring escort and protection, some may be neutrals. One might be a disguised surface raider masquerading as either type.

Ideally disguised surface raiders are probably best left for a map campaign and one where they can operate on the fringes and away from the range of land-based or carrier-based aeroplanes. In a straight forward battle I see them as very limited in their application but they could become an interesting objective.

Another approach might be for the dummy markers to move around the board as a 50pt objective. Like the shell game the 'Allied' player has to find it and identify it. But this time the German player rolls a pair of dice every move he/she is not found.

2 - raider strikes floating mine and disappears. Raider out of game but Allies score no objective points. Germans keep any points they gained before the sinking
3 to 9 - no enemy merchant ships found this move
10 - found and sunk one merchant ship, Germans score 5pts
11 - found and sunk one valuable merchant ship, Germans score 10pts.
12 - found and sunk one very valuable merchant ship, Germans score 15 pts

If the Allies can find the raider and sink it they score 50 objective points. However if the Germans can evade and keep sinking they may score more points and thus will the game.

[Sean-Khan]

My version of a raider -scenario (untested):

Allied player gains 40 points, and can have maximum of 4 destroyers or patrol boats. No battleships, carriers or subs and maximum of 1 plane. There is 6 freighters, each one numbered, and none of which may start adjacent to other. In the start of the game, Axis player chooses one number, which marks his ship, and hides the number. Allied ships start at his side's deployment area, freighters from other side of the map, starting area enlarged to 3 sector rows. Use open maps only (no coastline).

Allied player needs to move all freighters off his side of the map. He may expose his ship and take control of it any time. Before this, Allied player acts always first. Each time a plane moves over a freighter or a ship starts it's turn in the same square than a freighter, player rolls d6. On result 5-6, ship's identity is confirmed, whether it's cargo ship or raider.

Axis player has 3 'independent captain' tokens he can spend immediately after allied player's movement to change the last move so that it ends in adjacent sector instead of intended. This change can't increase ship's movement, and tokens are lost when raider is exposed.

Axis player has also one u-boat; In end of any turn, he may deploy it in a sector at any open edge of the map, except at side where freighters are supposed to exit. At the end of 5th, 6th and 7th turn, if there's still independent freighters on the board, axis player gains another U-boat (to make allied player hurry!)

If axis player sinks 3 freighters or total of 5 enemy units, he wins. If he sinks all freighters or 7 enemy units he gains major victory, with which he can boast ;) Allied player can't attack unidentified freighters and freighters sunk by him are considered to be sunk by Axis player.

Freighters use Jeremiah O'Brien stats, raider Nordmark stats.

An interesting twist would be to allow Axis player to choose 'none' as his freighter, and revealing a second U boat at 4rd turn or later.

[AKI]

That has potential...

I too am thinking of making my coastal patrol scenario of only 50 points per side, plus freighters, with a 10 point cap on the cost of vessels purchased...

[doganpc]

I cast my vote on representation. Assuming 64 pieces, we're going to need some filler. Seriously, there are 3 cargo vessels in the first set, expand on that a little more and bring in the merchant raiders.

Open the game up to smaller vessels. Besides theres only so much big boat action before you're just seeing the same things over and over.

Doganpc
Variation