Graf Spee -vs- Baltimore

[aquarius]

It's simple: Which would win in a one-on-one shootout? (assuming they start in the standard places)

[maxh]

Pretty much whoever got the first hit in at range 4, they're both overgunned compared to most cruisers armor. Graf Spee has an edge in firepower but Baltimore has better armor, AA and torpedo defenses which make her more useful in a fleet. Graf Spee reigns supreme as a cruiser killer though.

Most of the matches I've played they tend to cripple each other if allowed to duel, occasionally one will vital hit the other.

[Scharnhorst]

Seeing how the Graf Spee is actually a pocket battleship and not a heavy cruiser I'd have to go with it.

Aside from that, I would still pick it. In every fleet it goes into it is a powerhouse against cruisers and destroyers.

[TheJudge]

Baltimore vs Graf Spee

That is a cat and mouse matchup basically. First one that misses, loses I would say.

Graf Spee- 21 points Speed 2 1939
Main- 12/12/11/10
2nd- 6/6/5/5
AA 6
Torps- 2/1
Armor 4/10/3
Extended Range 4

Baltimore- 18 pts 1943
Main- 10/10/9/8
2nd- 5/5/4
AA- 8
Torps- none
Armor 5/10/3
ER-4
Torpedo Defense 1

Comparing the 2 is tough. The gunnery is similar enough not to matter but Graf Spee gets an edge for it's higher secondary guns and range 3 secondary gun. This could be the difference in a shootout.

Spee also has torpedoes so in close, 3 attacks vs 2 is big if one of the torpedoes hits.

AA doesn't matter in a head to head matchup but Baltimore is better by 2.

This matchup is a real tossup. For balance, I'd go with Baltimore. Better armor and AA makes it a better design but for muscle, I like Graf Spee.

Sorry, can't pick a winner. The one who misses first would likely lose the matchup.

[Fleet_Admiral_PF]

"Pocket battleship" isn't a true classification, more of a nickname. Large Cruisers is another sub-class, ex/USS Alaska.

[aquarius]

But fitting, nonetheless (I think that's spelled right).

[doganpc]

I got my money on the Graf Spree.
You get one hit on the Baltimore and then do your best to stay at range 3. 2 chances vs 1 and only 3 hull points doesn't last long. In my actual play experiences (many with the baltimore against anything I coulld muster) when i got the Graf Spree it was a dead tie. They always sank the other on the same turn.

Doganpc
self appointed cruiser master. :P

[NimitsTexan]

Seeing how the Graf Spee is actually a pocket battleship and not a heavy cruiser I'd have to go with it.

Aside from that, I would still pick it. In every fleet it goes into it is a powerhouse against cruisers and destroyers.


The Germans originally called them "panzerschiffe," and then later reclassified them as "heavy cruisers." Only the RN ever called them pocket battleships (in reference to the fact that they severely outgunned the RN treaty cruisers).

[Richter von Manthofen]

I'd say that who misses first loses a single battle, but on average the bet is on the Graf Spee.

The main Guns of the Graf spee have the 2 dice more to offset the 1 more Armor of the Baltimore

After one hit (asuming both get hit the same time - else the first miss rule applies) Gunnery range should be 3 - that means that the Graf Spee has the little chance to do 2 hits a turn while the Baltimore can only do one. (Range 2 is the best for the Baltimore, because at Range 1 the Spee gets a Torpedo Attack)

As both ships have the same vital armor and the Spee shoots more dice the likelyhood for an instant kill is higher for the Spee.

I assume that most battles will end in both ships sunk

So overall the Spee should come out ahead - at her higher cost I assume both ships are fairly balanced...

The German Translation for Pocket Battleschip is "Westentaschenschlachtschiff"

[LoneWolf]

The U.S.S Bultimore wins, it costs less points

I just saw someone was like "they would both probily sink" and hell I prefer to lose 18 pts then 21 pts.

Now if i was asked;

Rodney vs Richelieu

I would vote rodney. Just to show it isn't an entirely points view, it's what you get for your points.

["Sink the Bismark"]

Graff spee without a doubt. Torpedo defense helps but this is going to be a gunnery duel. Who cares if the Baltimore has 5 armor? the Graff Spee will still hit it with main guns. The Graff Spee's guns at range 4 are as good as the Baltimore's at range 1. The Graff Spee's secondaries can hit the Baltimore with less luck needed then the Baltimore's sencondaries. Bottom line, the Baltimore is outgunned.

[Cinnibar]

Ok, let's check the odds...

At range 4...
Graf Spee hits the Baltimore (10 dice vs 5 armor) : 81.8% of the time
Graf Spee destroys Baltimore (10 dice vs 10 vital) : 11.8%
Baltimore hits Graf Spee (8 dice vs 4 armor) : 80.3%
Baltimore destroys Graf Spee (8 dice vs 10 vital) : 2.8%
Advantage : Graf Spee, due to the massively greater chance of destroying Baltimore outright.

At range 3...
Same odds on the Main Guns..
Graf Spee secondaries hit (5 dice vs 5 armor) : 23.8%
Graf Spee secondaries destroy (5 dice vs 10 vital) : < 0.1%... one chance in 7,776 (but still possible)
Baltimore secondaries are out of range
Advantage : Graf Spee again

At range 2...
Graf Spee hits the Baltimore (11 dice vs 5 armor) : 87.6%
Graf Spee destroys Baltimore (11 dice vs 10 vital) : 19.0%
Graf Spee secondaries hit (5 dice vs 5 armor) : 23.8%
Graf Spee secondaries destroy (5 dice vs 10 vital) : < 0.1%... one chance in 7,776 (but still possible)
Baltimore hits Graf Spee (9 dice vs 4 armor) : 86.9%
Baltimore destroys Graf Spee (9 dice vs 10 vital) : 6.4%
Baltimore secondaries hit (4 dice vs 4 armor) : 28.0%
Baltimore secondaries can't destroy the Graf Spee
Advantage : Graf Spee. Sure, the Baltimore secondaries hit slightly more often, but the Baltimore sinks three times as often as the Graf Spee does.

At range 1...
Graf Spee hits the Baltimore (12 dice vs 5 armor) : 91.7%
Graf Spee destroys Baltimore (12 dice vs 10 vital) : 27.5%
Graf Spee secondaries hit (6 dice vs 5 armor) : 37.9%
Graf Spee secondaries destroy (6 dice vs 10 vital) : 0.2%
Graf Spee torpedoes : 1 die, 17.6% chance of a hit
Baltimore hits Graf Spee (10 dice vs 4 armor) : 91.5%
Baltimore destroys Graf Spee (10 dice vs 10 vital) : 11.8%
Baltimore secondaries hit (5 dice vs 4 armor) : 44.2%
Baltimore secondaries destroy Graf Spee (5 dice vs 10 vital) 1 in 7,776.. <0.1%
Advantage : Graf Spee... Again, the secondaries of the Baltimore hit slightly more often... but the Graf Spee vital chance still remains much higher, and with the torpedo threat, the Graf Spee can sink the Baltimore with hits from mains, secondaries, and the torpedo as well.

At range 0...
Guns identical to range 0
Graf Spee has 2 torpedoes, at least one hits 30.6% of the time (11/36), and the Graf Spee gets two hits 2.8% of the time (1/36 2 hits, 10/36 one hit only)
Advantage : Graf Spee, obviously.

Why are we having this discussion? The Graf Spee has better odds to kill the Baltimore at any range and has the clear advantage in any direct one-on-one confrontation. It's not even close.

[TheJudge]

Hard to argue with the math. Thanks Cinnibar.

In the comparison of the 2 ships in a fleet, I'd take Baltimore over Graf Spee because i don't think Spee is the best ship you can use in it's own navy. Baltimore is a good, balanced ship.

Against each other, they should both hit each other and the one who misses first will likely lose but then again, the Spee's secondary guns may get a lucky hit and offset that so advantage Spee head's up.

[cwfgamecast]

I voted for the Spee cause I'm biased. I've had a lot of luck with it in fleets (I love being able to kill destroyers at range 4 and not having to deduct from my rolls....its beautiful!)

I think the Baltimore is a more balanced ship and I think in the hands of two veteran gamers with strong strategic and tactical backgrounds that it'd be a tie where a tie is both ships sinking at the end of the turn.

Numbers only go so far and it is hard to place a numerical value on the x factor, in this case represented by the gamers and the map.

[magister]

How about the Bozano? It is 18 points just like the Baltimore. Do you think that it could have a chance against the Baltimore? If not then why is it 18 points?:confused:

[Jameson]

Wait, somebody resurrecting this poll to ask why the Bolanzo wasn't included? Did that actually just happen?

[TheJudge]

Wait, somebody resurrecting this poll to ask why the Bolanzo wasn't included? Did that actually just happen?

Yes, I suppose it did happen. I believe Bolzano is 16 points anyway and is overpriced because it has torpedoes. Bolzano is a barge compared to Spee and Baltimore.

[doganpc]

From first hand experience, the Bolzano cannot stand up to either Baltimore or Graf Spree. However amongst the cruisers of its class (cruiser hull and guns) and theatre of operation (1940 Europe) it's a beast with only the Gloire being a threat.

Probably the ultimate destroyer killer with it's extra move speed.

Doganpc
Zombies you cut, Skeletons you bash.

[XAos]

1-on-1 Graf Spee wins (as Cinnibar demonstrated)
But in a fleet action I'd prefer Baltimore. Spee will probably take a hit from air attacks(AA-6 is feeble) long before it gets in range.

[magister]

I believe Bolzano is 16 points anyway and is overpriced because it has torpedoes. Bolzano is a barge compared to Spee and Baltimore.[/QUOTE]

Sorry the bolzano is 18 points.:( Note: I agree that ship is over priced at 16. She shouls be 12 and the duca d aogsta should be 10.
But when compared to the Baltimore she has
1 less gun
2 less anti-air
1 less armor
1 less vital armor
does not have torpedo defense
nor extended rang (These last 2 make the Baltimore the smallest battleship in the game.)
But to equall these she has:
flank speed
2 torpedos
Is a far more beautiful ship.:rolleyes:
Still I do not think that this balences very well. especially since she is the only Italian heavy cruiser in the game.

[TK421]

I voted for the Spee cause I'm biased. I've had a lot of luck with it in fleets (I love being able to kill destroyers at range 4 and not having to deduct from my rolls....its beautiful!)


This raises an excellent point. I think, however, that destroyers are immune to gunnery attacks at range 4 and not just those from battleships. http://www.wizards.com/avalonhill/rules/War_at_Sea_Clarifications.pdf

That being said, I think that the battlehship negative modifier for shooting at destroyers at range 3 and under should apply to the Graf Spee. She has the same guns and turrets as the Scharnhorst and Gneinsenau, and I have read that she had trouble tracking the relatively fast-moving cruisers at the Battle of the River Plate with her large turrets. The Graf Spee and her sisters defy easy classification.

p.s. On reflection, since the Germans lack a heavy cruiser at this time it probably good in game balance terms to give them a ship capable of hitting destroyers with some punch at range 3 like the other fleets. That seems to be the best role for cruisers right now, so exempting the Graf Spee from the negative modifier makes a certain amount of game-balance sense. It would still not be able to hit destroyers at range 4, just like any other ship.

[AKI]

Sorry the bolzano is 18 points.:( Note: I agree that ship is over priced at 16. She shouls be 12 and the duca d aogsta should be 10.
But when compared to the Baltimore she has
1 less gun
2 less anti-air
1 less armor
1 less vital armor
does not have torpedo defense
nor extended rang (These last 2 make the Baltimore the smallest battleship in the game.)
But to equall these she has:
flank speed
2 torpedos
Is a far more beautiful ship.:rolleyes:
Still I do not think that this balences very well. especially since she is the only Italian heavy cruiser in the game.

It's been said before and will be said again, the US ships are massively underpriced. That's why our house rule is that US, or largely US fleets incur a 10% points penalty (i.e 90 instead of 100 point fleets). It helps rein them in but not by much.

[babs]

This raises an excellent point. I think, however, that destroyers are immune to gunnery attacks at range 4 and not just those from battleships. http://www.wizards.com/avalonhill/rules/War_at_Sea_Clarifications.pdf

That being said, I think that the battlehship negative modifier for shooting at destroyers at range 3 and under should apply to the Graf Spee. She has the same guns and turrets as the Scharnhorst and Gneinsenau, and I have read that she had trouble tracking the relatively fast-moving cruisers at the Battle of the River Plate with her large turrets. The Graf Spee and her sisters defy easy classification.

p.s. On reflection, since the Germans lack a heavy cruiser at this time it probably good in game balance terms to give them a ship capable of hitting destroyers with some punch at range 3 like the other fleets. That seems to be the best role for cruisers right now, so exempting the Graf Spee from the negative modifier makes a certain amount of game-balance sense. It would still not be able to hit destroyers at range 4, just like any other ship.

Doesn;t the baltimore also have ER 4? Your point that the Graf Spee as BBs does not make sense from that perspective.

Babs out!

[Jameson]

Doesn;t the baltimore also have ER 4? Your point that the Graf Spee as BBs does not make sense from that perspective.

Babs out!

I think you should re-read TK421's post. :rolleyes:

[TK421]

Doesn;t the baltimore also have ER 4? Your point that the Graf Spee as BBs does not make sense from that perspective.

Babs out!

My point was that no ship can target destroyers at Range 4 (including the Baltimore). My suggestion was that perhaps the negative modifier for battleships be applied to the Graf Spee since she had the same armament as ships such as the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau that suffer the modifier. I then reflected that that might not be a good move from a game balance perspective until the Hipper comes out.

Cheers

[irondog068]

I think the Hipper Class CA (British press called them pocket battleships, Germans did not). Had 6x11 inch (orwhat ever the closest metric is) While the Baltimore class has 8 inch. It all comes down who hits first at long range.

Funny story about the Spee. The British did not know how to catch her so the guy who wrote "Fleteher Pratt" naval rules played several miniture games and found 4 CA could sink the Graf Spee. The RN agreed and the rest is history. Who said a wargame cannot change history.

Irondog

[aquarius]

Do you have a copy of said naval rules?

[MarcusAurelius]

Do you have a copy of said naval rules?

As far as I know, Fletcher Pratt's Naval War Game has been out of print for decades. But you might find a copy in an online auction.

An interesting mechanic is the use of range estimation to determine hits. Keep in mind this isn't exactly a tabletop game; originally, battles were played out on a grand scale on ballroom floors.

If you're interested in alternate rulesets, check out General Quarters, 3rd edition (Old Dominion GameWorks) or Battle Stations! Battle Stations! (Decision Games). While I prefer the fast, simple play of War at Sea, there are lots of other options.

[Jameson]

I think the Hipper Class CA (British press called them pocket battleships, Germans did not). Had 6x11 inch (orwhat ever the closest metric is) While the Baltimore class has 8 inch. It all comes down who hits first at long range.

Funny story about the Spee. The British did not know how to catch her so the guy who wrote "Fleteher Pratt" naval rules played several miniture games and found 4 CA could sink the Graf Spee. The RN agreed and the rest is history. Who said a wargame cannot change history.

Irondog

You are getting the Hipper 8" class CA mixed up with the Deutschland 11" class
'pocket battleship'.

[Destroyer Captain]

bump cuz friends want to see the thread

[Conjurer]

I wouldn't much like my chances commanding Baltimore against Graf Spee in single combat. I would only offer battle if I had no other option, or if I thought doing so would secure victory.

From a historical standpoint, it's tough to think of any US vessel that matches up well against Graf Spee without out-weighing or out-gunning her by a significant amount; the closest I can come, off the top of my head, would be to set Guam or Alaska against her, allowing for the use of only two main turrets on the US vessel. Even at that, I suspect the heavier ( approximately twice the displacement ) US class would have a significantly easier time with the German gunnery than Graf Spee would against the twelve-inch shells coming at her. :p

[dracos42]

I wouldn't much like my chances commanding Baltimore against Graf Spee in single combat. I would only offer battle if I had no other option, or if I thought doing so would secure victory.

From a historical standpoint, it's tough to think of any US vessel that matches up well against Graf Spee without out-weighing or out-gunning her by a significant amount; the closest I can come, off the top of my head, would be to set Guam or Alaska against her, allowing for the use of only two main turrets on the US vessel. Even at that, I suspect the heavier ( approximately twice the displacement ) US class would have a significantly easier time with the German gunnery than Graf Spee would against the twelve-inch shells coming at her. :p


Get the Graf Spee in a night action, or low visibility, with a Brooklyn or Cleveland CL. The CL should have the advantage with the greater number of guns and higher rate of fire. An Atlanta would be a nasty opponent in a close range fight also.

Regarding Baltimore vs. Graf Spee, in a standard WAS game my money is on Graf Spee. In some other games, or real life, I'll go for the Baltimore. In a real life long range gun duel, the Baltimore should have a slight advantage with her 9 guns vs. Graf Spee's 6. I'm basing that on the low hit probability at long range. The Baltimore is also faster by at least 5 knots, so she can close the range.

Conjurer, I agree with you about only wanting to offer battle if there was no other option, or if it was the only way to secure victory. I think the Graf Spee's captain would be thinking the same thing.

Mike L.