Recosting is great; how about some errata?

[Colonel_Coo]

With the recosting in full swing for Set VI, how about we provide Hasbro/WoTC/AH design team some input to fix some underpowered/overpowered/just plain broken special abilities?

Requirements:
1. Must be or change a single line of text that modifies the Speical Ability
2. Must stay withing the spirit of the unit
3. Cannot introduce new game mechanics
4. Cannot change the point cost of the unit

Here are my top four inputs:
Chatting on the Radio: This unit may not move or be moved during your assualt phase if its SPOTTER Special Abliity has or will be used by any other unit this turn.

Mechanized Tactics: ADD. . .This unit treats any vehicle in its hex as if it has TRANSPORT.

Improved indirect fire: Add. . . This attack occurs at an additional -1 attack modifier if the unit is not a Spotter or Commander.

Bravado: this is inspired by the HHR so I don't really take credit for it but here it goes . . . This unit rolls 2 extra dice when attacking if you have more units on the map than your opponent.


Anyone one else have elegant/simple one-line of text that improves existing units that fix units that are otherwise over-costed, under-costed, ill-devised or broken?

Comments, ditto's, me too's and amen's welcome.

COLONEL COO's UPDATE: Highly recommended rules and SA errata that really benefit this game put forth by other posters on this thread.

Crackshot: This unit gets +1 on each attack die when making attacks against a unit of the same type
rule reminder: unit types are Vehicle, Soldier, Aircraft and Boat
Not all players agree with this modification. Several seperate issues interact to make this an uncofrtable solution. It may be best to adapt an alternative of when making attacks against non-aircraft units to best solve the many conflicting needs. None the less, either addition is a great improvement on this ability and play balance

Tall Silhouette: This unit suffers -1 on all cover rolls.
This ability is so BAD that it just plain stinks to play with. Many other vehicles should qualify for this ability, as should Cavalry. Giving the -1, means a Natural 6. Not great odds, but at least it is a chance. Also, please consider adding this liberally to future units such as Sherman with a Rocket Rack on top!

[wilson2]

I really like your mech tactics idea.

As to the bravado, this could end up with whole armies of fuciles so you have more units than the opponent and it wont change any time soon making them worth much more than their price.
example:
11 * fucile modello - 33
3 * Elite pz 4 - 54
Carro armaot - 12
With 15 units you are pretty sure to have more than opponent making all the fuciles worth much more

[Qmark]

Seems inevitable now, huh?

[Colonel_Coo]

I really like your mech tactics idea.

As to the bravado, this could end up with whole armies of fuciles so you have more units than the opponent and it wont change any time soon making them worth much more than their price.
example:
11 * fucile modello - 33
3 * Elite pz 4 - 54
Carro armaot - 12
With 15 units you are pretty sure to have more than opponent making all the fuciles worth much more

Since platoon costing, I am not sure you will have MORE units that your opponent. A quick Blast/Bombardment and the Fucillo unit count can quickly dwindle.

Just as a reminder:
The Fucillo Modello is
Anti-Inf 7/5/0
Close assualt 5 fro 3 points

Compare that to a Arisaka (not exactly top tier) for 3pts of
AI 8/5/0
Close assualt 6
Hand to Hand 12

[boersma8]

I really like your mech tactics idea.

As to the bravado, this could end up with whole armies of fuciles so you have more units than the opponent and it wont change any time soon making them worth much more than their price.
example:
11 * fucile modello - 33
3 * Elite pz 4 - 54
Carro armaot - 12
With 15 units you are pretty sure to have more than opponent making all the fuciles worth much more

Agreed. Maybe a better idea to mke it depend on the number of points left on the board rather than on the number of units??? ( Then again, everything would have to be CORRECTLY priced.....;) )

[boersma8]

Almost forgot! Love your proposals. Very simple no re-writing entire abilities necesarry. Regarding US mortar aim achieved! Still would like to see an enhanced spotting range for spotters and either " superior camo" or " hard to spot" for them....( Might be like the engineer card: It doesn't mention anything abouit the additional ability either, but it's somewhere online. Would be nice if they could print this on the last page of the next rulebook! If this isn't a problem, it shouldn't be a problem to give all spotters one of the two SA's I suggested here or give them ALL camouflaged, like the British concealed observer!

Great job otherwise!

[CommanderlessMosinNagant]

Here are a few thoughts of mine.

Superior Optics: While this unit is in a hill hex, it can ignore adjacent hills and the terrain in any one hex, when determining line of sight. (Rationale: Nashorn needs all the help it can get.)

Tall Silhouette: This unit gets -1 to cover rolls. (Rationale: M3 Lee, Elefant and Nashorn need all the help they can get.)

Crack Shot: This unit gets +1 on each attack die against units of similar type. (Rationale: This was always much needed to fix weird uses of crack shot.)

Headshot: Once per game, instead of attacking a Vehicle, you may roll six attack dice. If you roll three or more successes, put a face-up Disrupted counter of that Vehicle. This counter isn't removed at the beginning of the next casualty phase. This ability cannot be combined with Crackshot. (Rationale: WES needs to be downgrades just a little.)

Paratrooper: This unit is placed on the map after deployment has been completed on both sides. You may deploy this unit on the map in any hex that isn't adjacent to an enemy unit or the objective. (Rationale: Teleportation is not a valid WWII ability.)

Lack of Determination: If this unit gets a face-up Disrupted counter and is not adjacent to a friendly commander, destroy it immediately. (Rationale: KMT rifleman are overcosted as is.)

Unreliable: Roll a die at the beginning of the casualty phase. On a roll of 5 or higher, face-up Disrupted counters aren't removed from this unit. (Rationale: T-26 is overcosted as is.)

Spotter: If this unit is within six hexes of an enemy unit and has line of sight to it, friendly Aircraft roll one extra attack die when attacking the enemy unit and friendly units with Indirect special ability may attack the enemy unit. (Rationale: Spotters can really do with an improvement of some sort.)

Plentiful Ammo: Upto 5 times per turn, you may reroll any 1s from the attack dice roll of any friendly Soldier or Vehicle attacks. (You may only reroll an attack die once with this ability.) (Rationale: Otherwise, ammo dumps become too powerful in large games.)

(Nationality) Hero—This unit doesn't get placed on the battle map during deployment. At the beginning of any of your movement phases, you may exchange this unit for a friendly (Nationality) Soldier already in play. At the end of your movement phase, remove any face-up Disrupted counters from this unit. (Rationale: My viewpoint on how to nerf heroes.)

[Fleet_Admiral_PF]

The Mech Tatics is really smart, puts a sense of realism to the game, I mean is a squad of panzer grenadiers needed a ride from a Pz IV, they'd hop on. But put a limit to only 1 unit on a vechicle.

[horacus]

Nice ideas Commanderles, nice.

[boersma8]

Mechanized Tactics: ADD. . .This unit treats any vehicle in its hex as if it has TRANSPORT.


I suppose you mean any FRIENDLY vehicle....;) ( Some people can be really precise rulewise....)

[boersma8]

Here are a few thoughts of mine.


Tall Silhouette: This unit gets -1 to cover rolls. (Rationale: M3 Lee, Elefant and Nashorn need all the help they can get.)

Crack Shot: This unit gets +1 on each attack die against units of similar type. (Rationale: This was always much needed to fix weird uses of crack shot.)

Headshot: Once per game, instead of attacking a Vehicle, you may roll six attack dice. If you roll three or more successes, put a face-up Disrupted counter of that Vehicle. This counter isn't removed at the beginning of the next casualty phase. This ability cannot be combined with Crackshot. (Rationale: WES needs to be downgrades just a little.)

Paratrooper: This unit is placed on the map after deployment has been completed on both sides. You may deploy this unit on the map in any hex that isn't adjacent to an enemy unit or the objective. (Rationale: Teleportation is not a valid WWII ability.)

Lack of Determination: If this unit gets a face-up Disrupted counter and is not adjacent to a friendly commander, destroy it immediately. (Rationale: KMT rifleman are overcosted as is.)

Plentiful Ammo: Upto 5 times per turn, you may reroll any 1s from the attack dice roll of any friendly Soldier or Vehicle attacks. (You may only reroll an attack die once with this ability.) (Rationale: Otherwise, ammo dumps become too powerful in large games.)

(Nationality) Hero—This unit doesn't get placed on the battle map during deployment. At the beginning of any of your movement phases, you may exchange this unit for a friendly (Nationality) Soldier already in play. At the end of your movement phase, remove any face-up Disrupted counters from this unit. (Rationale: My viewpoint on how to nerf heroes.)


1.) Agreed. Also seems to make more sense. I suppose you could still camouflage the things or dig them in etc.

2.) Much better than how it's now and also makes more sense, so bring it on!

3.) Someone else had headshot work like this: Crackshot still works, but ALL SNIPERS get UNLIMITED headshot. However, NORMAL SUCCESSES need to be rolled, so no longer will 3 be enough. You'll need to score more. ( I suppose the " commander" getting " shot through the head" is to be considered a defense 4/4 soldier, so even with crackshot you'll often fail. Also all snipers would be able to do it, so no longer an unfair advantage for the Germans in this field. German sniper does roll one extra die, but no problem here since he also coss a couple of points more....). I like this one better, even though it's admittedly a little more complicated.....

4.) Paras ok. Still necessary with them being limited and all? ( Well, I guess that's expanded rules only, so i guess so....)

5.) Yep, being next to a friendly commander should keep you from being eliminated from play because of disruption!

6.) Ammo dumps: In smaller games not really a problem. Quite easy to take out. I agree with you that they become more troublesome in larger games. Maybe a liit of 1 per 100 points is another possible solution???

7.) This one I particularly like! Remove one disrupted figure and replace it by a hero! Great! Then again, would the hero have the same stats as the figure removed????

[polish_horsy]

For Players House Rules we use 5 hits required for headshot to work. Unlimited tries during a game. All snipers get headshot. This way all other nation snipers can try.

Although going 5/5 is not easy (11% chance to work).

[boersma8]

For Players House Rules we use 5 hits required for headshot to work. Unlimited tries during a game. All snipers get headshot. This way all other nation snipers can try.

Although going 5/5 is not easy (11% chance to work).

Well, I guess it shouldn't be easy if you have unlimited tries.....;) I guess four might be a better way to go and that you throw the normal number of dice ( as shown in the brackets, NOT in the SA!)

[Richter von Manthofen]

In addition to the players rules ;) I like the Mechanized tactics... BTW as worded it will permit only one unit per vehicle...

[polish_horsy]

Well, I guess it shouldn't be easy if you have unlimited tries.....;) I guess four might be a better way to go and that you throw the normal number of dice ( as shown in the brackets, NOT in the SA!)

no... it shouldn't be easy. but I never figured out why the hell you'd only get 1 try anyway. he only has one "headshot" bullet with him?

a sniper should be able to decide between a high percentage shot and a low percentage but higher payoff shot. That makes sense to me.

[Colonel_Coo]

no... it shouldn't be easy. but I never figured out why the hell you'd only get 1 try anyway. he only has one "headshot" bullet with him?

a sniper should be able to decide between a high percentage shot and a low percentage but higher payoff shot. That makes sense to me.

Because the tank commander would turtle down.

[Richter von Manthofen]

Because the tank commander would turtle down.

But if you have two snipers (three...) he will peek again (a third time...)???

:D

[Colonel_Coo]

I would bet that WoTC/AH does not accept the idea that every nation in WWII had a doctrine of shooting tank commanders in the head with their snipers.

With that said, I think Headshot will remain as is.


I like the thought of modification of crack-shot; however, prior to that happening, the Anti-air capability of Russia and Japan must be improved.

So. . .
Crackshot: This unit gets +1 on each attack die when making attacks against a unit of the same type
rule reminder: unit types are Vehicle, Soldier, Aircraft and Boat

A couple of things here about this ability reduction:
First, it seriously reduces the ability of the WeS to successfully get a Headshot off. The failure rate goes up from 10.5% to 24.6%. That's a big shift in that ability.
Second, it severely limits the ability of a sniper to hit a plane (5 dice example) as the hit rate drops from 18.75% down to 4.5%. That is a huge drop.

From where I sit, this one line of text on Crackshot fixes three major complaints: 1. The auto-hit from headshot. 2. Crackshot tanks killing planes and soldiers at long range instead of TANKS. 3. It stops the Magic Bullet from taking out airplanes.

So I am adding it to the beginning list.

[polish_horsy]

But if you have two snipers (three...) he will peek again (a third time...)???

:D

or there is more than 1 tank in the area.

[polish_horsy]

Second, it severely limits the ability of a sniper to hit a plane (5 dice example) as the hit rate drops from 18.75% down to 4.5%. That is a huge drop.


I see that as a great thing... not a problem.

[Colonel_Coo]

Here are a few thoughts of mine.

Superior Optics: While this unit is in a hill hex, it can ignore adjacent hills and the terrain in any one hex, when determining line of sight. (Rationale: Nashorn needs all the help it can get.)

Headshot: Once per game, instead of attacking a Vehicle, you may roll six attack dice. If you roll three or more successes, put a face-up Disrupted counter of that Vehicle. This counter isn't removed at the beginning of the next casualty phase. This ability cannot be combined with Crackshot. (Rationale: WES needs to be downgrades just a little.)

Unreliable: Roll a die at the beginning of the casualty phase. On a roll of 5 or higher, face-up Disrupted counters aren't removed from this unit. (Rationale: T-26 is overcosted as is.)

Spotter: If this unit is within six hexes of an enemy unit and has line of sight to it, friendly Aircraft roll one extra attack die when attacking the enemy unit and friendly units with Indirect special ability may attack the enemy unit. (Rationale: Spotters can really do with an improvement of some sort.)

(Nationality) Hero—This unit doesn't get placed on the battle map during deployment. At the beginning of any of your movement phases, you may exchange this unit for a friendly (Nationality) Soldier already in play. At the end of your movement phase, remove any face-up Disrupted counters from this unit. (Rationale: My viewpoint on how to nerf heroes.)


These are the ones I dislike. Here's why.

Superior Optics. Unknown modification to the single unit with Superior Optics. I hope to see a price reductions (ala Tiger 1) for the same model. Inreality, the SA is fine. It is the Nashorn that was improperly designed from the start. Bad price. Bad Negative SA that shouldn't be applied. No need to change Superior Optics because WoTC made a terrible unit.

Headshot: In reality, only Germany used this tactic successfully. It should remain German only. Other suggestions on improving Crack shot resolves the Auto-hit nature of Headshot.

Unreliable. I like Unreliable as is. Chinese HUGE point advantage for single nation builds and the ability of these tanks to really give Japan a whopping should be fine. I've beat a German Panther Build with the Chinese using 6 of these little tanks. I routinely trounce Japan with a 6 tank build. This tank is pretty balanced when you consider the other pieces in the game.

Spotter: Chatting on the radio needs improvement, not the subclass of Soldier-Spotter (like the Ranger!). Many options for improving CotR. Special deployment, camoflage, optional use, etcetera.

Hero's: A lot of people hate heros. I get that. But double smacking the Hero ability is not the answer. Replacement is a good idea. Removing the "ignore disruption" is another. As is IGNORE the first attack against this unit. There are better ways to improve (and therefore un-restrict) Hero's.

These are my thoughts in regards to the ideas put forth that I don't agree upon. Soon, I'll post to the ones I did like. (see updates on the orignal post).

[Colonel_Coo]

I see that as a great thing... not a problem.

I didn't say it as a negative, rather as a summary of the impact.

[Colonel_Coo]

But if you have two snipers (three...) he will peek again (a third time...)???

:D

Nope, but it is a game. Games have rules and mechanics to actuate those rules. I don't see folks complaining that they cant' get a 15:1 kill ratio with their vet Tigers or lure enemy tanks to range with their 88mm Flak36. Just part of the game mechanic and balance.

[Latro]

From where I sit, this one line of text on Crackshot fixes three major complaints: 1. The auto-hit from headshot. 2. Crackshot tanks killing planes and soldiers at long range instead of TANKS. 3. It stops the Magic Bullet from taking out airplanes.

So I am adding it to the beginning list.

1. I would blame that on the "Headshot" SA rather than "Crackshot"

2. The new Aircraft rules seem to fix that problem ... and I don't recall that many people complaining about the Veteran Tiger being so deadly against soldiers either. It's superiority against enemy heavy tanks is what bugs some people most.

3. True ... but I would prefer an SA that prevents aircraft/sniper interaction at all.

I would hate to see one of the few effective german AI tanks, elite Pz IV, lose it's edge against soldiers. I mean, the thing was especially designed to be used against infantry ... don't blame it for being good at it's job!


:cool:

[Richter von Manthofen]

15/1 kill ratio for the Vet Tiger is a bit far fetched.

I assume 3/1 (4/1) against Shermans is more likely.

The more cover the better the Shermans fight.

[boersma8]

I would bet that WoTC/.

So. . .
Crackshot: This unit gets +1 on each attack die when making attacks against a unit of the same type
rule reminder: unit types are Vehicle, Soldier, Aircraft and Boat

A couple of things here about this ability reduction:
First, it seriously reduces the ability of the WeS to successfully get a Headshot off. The failure rate goes up from 10.5% to 24.6%. That's a big shift in that ability.
Second, it severely limits the ability of a sniper to hit a plane (5 dice example) as the hit rate drops from 18.75% down to 4.5%. That is a huge drop.

From where I sit, this one line of text on Crackshot fixes three major complaints: 1. The auto-hit from headshot. 2. Crackshot tanks killing planes and soldiers at long range instead of TANKS. 3. It stops the Magic Bullet from taking out airplanes.

So I am adding it to the beginning list.

I couldn't agree more and for the life of me I cannot possibly imagine what might stop WoTC from making this an official errata!

[boersma8]

I see that as a great thing... not a problem.

I'm sure Colonel Coo does too! ;)

[boersma8]

1. I would blame that on the "Headshot" SA rather than "Crackshot"

2. The new Aircraft rules seem to fix that problem ... and I don't recall that many people complaining about the Veteran Tiger being so deadly against soldiers either. It's superiority against enemy heavy tanks is what bugs some people most.

3. True ... but I would prefer an SA that prevents aircraft/sniper interaction at all.

I would hate to see one of the few effective german AI tanks, elite Pz IV, lose it's edge against soldiers. I mean, the thing was especially designed to be used against infantry ... don't blame it for being good at it's job!


:cool:

1.) What causes the problem is irrelevant in this case IMO. The important thing is that there is indeed a problem ...;)

2.) So far those " new aircraft rules" are optional ( expanded rules). If you don't play with them for whatever reason, you're still shooting down too many planes, i.e. the SA needs modifying!

3.) Agreed!

Also agreed on the " panzer IV D" . It may be a bit more cumbersome, but I guess it would be better to specifically address which units a unit's crackshot works against! ( i.e. snipers only against soldiers, Vet. Tiger against tanks -and infantry but not aircraft???- panzer IV D against INFANTRY - but not against tanks- etc.....)

[Motdc]

On Spotters, I always thought the extra dice should apply to Aircraft AND Artillery. Gives Spotter just a tad more usefulnes, and is well within the spirit of the unit.

Mot

[Colonel_Coo]

1. I would blame that on the "Headshot" SA rather than "Crackshot"

2. The new Aircraft rules seem to fix that problem ... and I don't recall that many people complaining about the Veteran Tiger being so deadly against soldiers either. It's superiority against enemy heavy tanks is what bugs some people most.

3. True ... but I would prefer an SA that prevents aircraft/sniper interaction at all.

I would hate to see one of the few effective german AI tanks, elite Pz IV, lose it's edge against soldiers. I mean, the thing was especially designed to be used against infantry ... don't blame it for being good at it's job!
A couple of points.

:cool:
Superior Camoflage doesn't mean it can't be seen from the air. It's a lot easier to hide on the Horizontal viewing plane than on the Vertical viewing plane.

With that said, I would prefer an elegant One Line solution to the Planes and Snipers interactions. The Allies had total air dominance in Europe and the Pacific but their planes couldn't pinpoint the enemy sniper nests.

So for historical play, the Plane shouldn't get hit by the sniper and the sniper shouldn't shoot at the plane. What we have here is a need to expand the part of the rules that talks about Commanders and Commander Abilities.

You may recall that Command Ability do not function if the Commander is disrutped. This area of the rules could be modified in the future (say the North Africa set) to expand to be under the heading of Special Rules per Unit types:
soldier-Commander: command abilities of these units do not function if they are disrutped.
Soldier-Sniper: this unit may not shoot at aircraft
Aircraft: this unit cannot attack units in cover which have Superior Camoflage
Soldier-ditch digger: this soldier is busy all the time and hates Army life.
Whatever we/they come up with for fixing certain interactions that are unnatural. This fix is beyond the scope of why I started this thread.

I do agree that the Plane & Sniper interaction is exaggerated and has no basis in fact. I don't think that there is an easy solution by modification of any SA. The only solution is reating a point blank RULE to deal with the interaction. Once that is done, what is needed is other rules to deal with each restriction by unit subtype (soldier-ditch digger, vehicle-skateboard, etcetera).

[Colonel_Coo]

Tall Silhouette: This unit gets -1 to cover rolls. (Rationale: M3 Lee, Elefant and Nashorn need all the help they can get.)


I really like this change. Yes, the -1 means a natural 6. It also means attacks from Pinpointer or planes in the same hex means the unit fails cover rolls.

But in reality, A LOT of units should have this SA. Having it is a negative, but it shouldn't act like there are no buildings or tree or hills around because something is 2.5m tall. Other future reprints/recosting should have this ability: such as Sherman Calliope, King Tiger, T-35, etc.

[Richter von Manthofen]

One reason for tall shilouette was (Someone said so can't recall who) that the distance from the main gun to the top of the hatch is so big (LEE OK for the side gun), but the Nashorn has its main gun lying quite high, so it could make good use from cover...