English Channel

[Athamas]

If England and France start the game with a non agression pact in the English Channel, who gains the most? Who tends to stab first? and who should stab first?
My opinion is that France gains easier SCs sooner and thus grows quicker(benefits speak for themselves), England gains safety and enough time to grow a bit and possibly pull Germany in to the "Stab France Plan".
Weighing it up purely on cash in hand I feel France wins there.
Who stabs first? England, what else does he have to do out there? France is busy just securing three fronts so the push north is a big commitment(this of course is not considering friendly relations on both sides of Switzerland).
Who should stab first? France, with new found wealth from Spain etc he should be discussing which portion of England Germany wants and strike quickly as England is normally a smaller strung out nation at that stage.

Your thoughts?

[RuHurt]

England is almost always a fool to agree to a DMZ; as you said, it's more benificial to France, and makes it harder to set up a Germany/England alliance, which is better for England than France/England.

[Enderson]

I would never set up an English Ch. DMZ because England can always get it in the spring because France will want to secure Portugal and Spain, and with the English Ch. you can threaten Brest, without even intending to, and then just say you were there for security reasons, and never move into Brest.

Enderson~>.

[Edi Birsan]

There is a reason it is called the English Channel.

All flippance aside, if England goes to the Channel in Sp 01 it risks not being able to take Norway if the Russians go A Moscow to St. Petersburg. This could be a disaster in the making.

The decision on the Channel is one that is tied to what is happening elsewhere. If England and Frnace have made designs against Germany then the French need an army in Burgundy and they are better off going to the Mid with the fleet so as to get it into Spain sc to deter italy.

The joy of the game is that in these sort of questions there is no answer other than to redirect you to what is the relationships and negotiations on the board with the people/players.

[simply4est]

I actual think a Channel DMZ can be a good idea to start with for at least a couple of reasons:

Like Edi already pointed out, England and France can likely have better places to aim there fleets at in the beginning.

It sets up the possibility of a western alliance that can counter a possibly powerful Russia-Turkey alliance if that looks like it's arising.

It's good to test the waters (pun intended) with your ally/rival across the channel to see how they treat an opening alliance and how negotiations with them turn out - do they violate it early with a lame excuse, or do they maintain it honorably for at least the time being?

[RuHurt]

The last point was good, but the problem there is, by the time you realize your "ally" has betrayed you, it may be too late to do much about it :P.

[simply4est]

Ha! True! But that's always part of Diplomacy, lol.

[Athamas]

How often/long has the DMZ lasted in your experiences?
Have you found that England and France can go the distance to say a final three without crossing the line in the sand (under the water)?

[David E. Cohen]

I have seen this particular DMZ agreement broken on the first turn (by England, by France, and by *both*--LOL), but I have seen it last all game long. Like any agreement, it depends on the players and the game situation.

There are players out there who won't stab their game long ally for a certain win, and there are players out there who will stab for no logical reason at all. The trick, of course, is knowing which is which, and how to use that knowledge to advantage.

[RuHurt]

Oh, it certainly CAN work. Just given the general dynamics of each power's expand-routes, it's unlikely to last more than a turn or two.

[simply4est]

I also have seen it both broken immediately and last the length of the game - as far as number of games for each, I didn't keep an exact count, but I'm guessing it's been about 50/50. A England-France steamroller can be as effective and workable as the Russia-Turkey Juggernaut - as others have already mentioned, it just depends on the other dynamics and people in the game.