need feedback on two house rule suggestion please

[Joey]

First of all, hello community of war at sea. I've been reading the post here for quite some time, and the sharing of naval knowledge from you all and the support from Mr. Baker is one of the thing that kept me interested in this game. Now, here come the house rules suggestion:

1- There as already been a lot of talk about the oh! so great power of battleship, the why would I use a cruiser instead of *insert the ship of your choice*, or the mein goth! stop sinking my destroyers you son..... well, how about all those beautiful ''roll them bones'' would be for damage, and one simple die roll would be for the attack.

So, exemple: a battleship main battery would hit on a 6 at range 5, 5+ at range 4, 4+ at 3, 3+ at 2, 2+ at 1 and 0... 1 always being a miss. When(again with the main battery) the battleship attack a cruiser it has -1 to hit, and when shooting at a destroyer -2. When the number it needs to hit is over 6 (hitting a destroyer at range 4 would need a 7), it can't attack the target. What it would achieve would be to give the cruiser and destroyer, especially the cruiser, a lot more survivability and lower the power of extended range 4, or worst, 5. You then make a table for the cruiser, destroyer and secondary weapon and there you go.

To take this rule even farther, you could, when building your fleet, pay more to have a veteran crew (+1 to hit) or get point because you've got some rookie aboard(-1 to hit).

So basically, when you ship attack, you roll one die to see if it hit, if not, next! but if you do hit, now you roll all those beautiful dice depending on your range and try to get pass that armor.

2- Personnally, although I'm no WW2 naval battle expert, I think the AA of the ships are well... too good for those poor bomber and makes you choose more often than not a big and reliable battleship over those aicraft carrier. So, simple little rule change, why not give -1 to ship attacking approching bombers. Maybe then I'll see again a ''Val'' approching a Iowa escorted by an Atlanta... just maybe.

Now, I just need to sit and wait for those feedback... isn't life wonderful?;)

[Vornargith]

The current rules seem just about right... with a few minor "ehhs" ... like the Richeleau's 5 range vs. the Bismark and Yamato's 4 ... when historically the latter 2 out-ranged the French ship.

The battleships are what they are ... and frankly, a light cruiser or destroyer dodging it's guns are not realistic at shorter ranges ... they were monsters. Now turning rates work nicely. We use hexes ... and BBs have a turn rate of only one, cruisers 2 and destroyers 3. Now, something I would be interested in exploring is a rate of fire ... where a BBs main guns can fire every other turn instead of every turn.

Bombers and torpedo bombers historically had a tough time cracking ships. A single wing of Vals against the Iowa is a little far-fetched, and the Atlanta was quite possibly the best AA ship in the war. ... maybe for a couple points, you can make the kates "ace bombers" and give them bonuses to defense against ship AA?

[Joey]

Well, it's not the ships dodging the shots, it's the crew trying to hit something smaller at 15-20 000 yards and then see with the usual dice rolling if it was a serious hit or not. But, I like the idea about ace pilots being the only planes harder to hit. Maybe 3pts to assign ace pilots to a squadron.

Veteran crew of a battleship and cruiser is better with gunnery, maybe 10pts per BB, 5 per cruiser; ace pilots is harder to hit, 3 pts per squadron; destroyers would be better at ASW, 3 pts?; ... how about subs? first ASW threat don't count? and carriers? maybe something to do with the rearming crew?

['Warspite']

Now, something I would be interested in exploring is a rate of fire ... where a BBs main guns can fire every other turn instead of every turn.




Tricky. With land based aircraft also rotating every other move. How long is a move?

Even a slow firing battleship can manage one round per gun, per minute, so are we suggesting that aircraft are rotating back to base every 30 seconds?

I don't think so!

[swarbs]

2- Personnally, although I'm no WW2 naval battle expert, I think the AA of the ships are well... too good for those poor bomber and makes you choose more often than not a big and reliable battleship over those aicraft carrier. So, simple little rule change, why not give -1 to ship attacking approching bombers. Maybe then I'll see again a ''Val'' approching a Iowa escorted by an Atlanta... just maybe.

Now, I just need to sit and wait for those feedback... isn't life wonderful?;)

Right now there are early WWII aircraft matched up against late-war AA armaments. Hopefully there will be more advanced aircraft in WWII that will be able to get through the AA of some current ships.

[NimitsTexan]

Well, one thing to keep in mind, no 1940s era aircraft ever built would be able to successfully penetrate in large numbers the anti-aircraft fire from a task force of Iowas, South Dakotas, Atlantas, and the Essex's themselves. It just could not be done. As the IJN proved at Philippine Sea and later of the coasts of the Philippines, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa, such attempts result in the anihilation of the attack foce. If the IJN had better trained pilots in 1944, they might have score a few more hits before dying, but they were in a no win situation.

[Vornargith]

Tricky. With land based aircraft also rotating every other move. How long is a move?

Even a slow firing battleship can manage one round per gun, per minute, so are we suggesting that aircraft are rotating back to base every 30 seconds?



You're right there .... haha ... didn't think about that ... hmmm.

[Vornargith]

How's this for tackling the BB vs. CA argument ...

Target Size:
• Ships are assigned a target size of 0-2 with small boats, frigates and destroyers 0; cruisers and escort carriers 1; and Heavy Cruisers, fleet carriers and Battleships 2.
• When main guns attack, each die roll gets a modifier based on the difference between the attacker and the target. Smaller ships attacking a larger ship get a bonus while the larger ship gets penalized when attacking the smaller one. ONLY WITH THE MAIN GUN.

This doesn't necessarily mean the small guys will overpower the BBs ... even if all there guns hit, the chance of damage is still not the greatest ... but they have the chance now. Of course ... that ususally means getting within 1 sector of the big guy.

[Schlachtschiff Bismarck]

in general I agree with the game play as it stands reguarding BBs. The plain and simple truth is the battleships were ship killing machines it is what they were designed to do and they did it well. fact is few cruisers and destroyers tried to go toe to toe with the battleships and those that did were sorry or dead.

[Richter von Manthofen]

I use the 6 to hit at range 5, and 5+ to hit at range 4 rule in my games (damage does not prevent the use of extended range - to compensate).

increasing the hit probability further (mire dice already do this) is not the way to go. This is somewhat based in reality. When the UK BBs closed in to kill the BISMARCK their guns had to fire paralell to the ocean surface which caused the shells to bounce and they were NOT able to penetrate the hull of the Bismarck. "only" the superstructure was "mauled". A steeper angle would have enabled the shells to actually penetrate the hull and sink the Bismarck (she was scuttled by her own crew) - no different outcome of course...

Planes being to weak... I do not think so, but for the scope of the game Carriers are the wrong piece.

Carriers are strategic units that "should" be kept out of reach of other surface ships.

Carriers enable fleets to have air cover and air assault capacity - unavailable otherwise in the middle of the ocean (simulated somewhat by the limit of planes - limit of only being useable every second turn) you can take when relying only on the land bair base.

When operating near a coast - within a confined body of water (like the Mediterranian) carriers are NOT so important (thats why Italy and Germany did NOT invest in them with high priority)

For example during the UK evacuation of Crete the German Stukas wreaked havoc among the UK fleet - and they were "only" Land based.

As a house rule for carriers I could imagine to put them off board and the planes must fly in first (requiring a rearming turn). If the other player wants to sink the Carriers he first must Search the carriers (5+ on d6 - patrol bombers add +1 if committed for the search) If you found the carrier, you can attack it normally next turn. If a plane goes "off board" he receives 2 rearming counters if going to the land base - one if returning to an own carrier. (the Catalina gets one rearming counter if used off board)

...

[Sub Chaser Capt.]

Well for i for one like the way cruisers are in the game, no WWII cruiser would stand up to a BB in a real fire fight like we see in WAS ask any member of the Zara class heavy cruisers arguably one of the best heavy cruisers of the early war they fought well but blasted OOC by british BBs, but thats not there job there job is ecourts for the capital ships fending off would be PT boats and DDs and the like and adding to a ships AA cover. if it comes down to your bolzano vs. his rodney you have already lost no need to fiddle with the rules, you should have protected ur capital ship better.

[Torps]

Well for i for one like the way cruisers are in the game, no WWII cruiser would stand up to a BB in a real fire fight like we see in WAS ask any member of the Zara class heavy cruisers arguably one of the best heavy cruisers of the early war they fought well but blasted OOC by british BBs, but thats not there job there job is ecourts for the capital ships fending off would be PT boats and DDs and the like and adding to a ships AA cover. if it comes down to your bolzano vs. his rodney you have already lost no need to fiddle with the rules, you should have protected ur capital ship better.

Well said!
The 'battlers' gun down anything they can reach.
Destroyers and PTboats use agility and smoke to approach big ships and launch torpedoes.
Cruisers hammer the Destroyers and PT boats, give AA support and general surface fighting duties.
Subs lurk menacingly, requiring concentrated enemy effort to destroy them.
Carriers are vulnerable but provide decisive air support.

All in all that's a pretty good balance for 'beer and pretzles' game system.:)