Thoughts on the Dutch Fleet

[Taisho Bo]

Because of the battles fought around Indonesia, like the Battle of Java, It would be nice to play the Dutch fleet vs Japan.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Java_Sea )

Thanks to Vornargith and EvilKobra we can already deploy a Dutch Cruiser / Destroyer fleet. I would use the Gloire for HNLMS De Ruyter and HNLMS Java, and Karl Galster for the HNLMS Witte de With / HNLMS Kortenaer.
http://boards.avalonhill.com/showthread.php?t=23091&page=3
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l67/vornargith/HNLMSJava.jpg

But this isn't complete, the Dutch also had some submarines of different classes. Some resemble U boats, but I'm not sure on where/how they've been used.
For now I'd use U510 as Dutch subs, without the wolfpack SA..
http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/

Any thoughts on this anyone?

[Vice Admiral Hornet]

2 points

1 images not found on shortcut above

2 what ships are you using as Dutch ships

[Taisho Bo]

@1:
1 images not found on shortcut above

I've updated the shortcuts, they work now..
(appearantly he removed his imgs)

@2:
2 what ships are you using as Dutch ships

>>:

I would use the Gloire for HNLMS De Ruyter and HNLMS Java, and Karl Galster for the HNLMS Witte de With / HNLMS Kortenaer.
For now I'd use U510 as Dutch subs, without the wolfpack SA..

[Vornargith]

On the subs ... I know they valiantly defending the coasts, but all were ultimately sunk. Any ideas for stats and SAs? I still need to do more research, but you probably have an idea of what you'd like to see in them.

[Taisho Bo]

Maybe this is a nice sub for the Dutch; the HNLMS O-19.
It attacked over 15 (mainly Japanese) vessels, including 2 heavy cruisers.

http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/boats/boat_o19.htm

I think it superficially resembles the Truculent model best.

Dutch submarine attacks in WW 2:
http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/specials/special_attacks_wwii.htm
other active subs, the HNLMS O-16 and the HNLMS K-XIV;
http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/boats/boat_o16.htm
http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/boats/boat_kxiv.htm

[swarbs]

It may kind of look like the Truculent but, and I haven't looked this up or anything, my impression was that these boats were pretty small, more like U510 or even Ambra.

[Vornargith]

Here's my target sub for a card ... the O21 of the O21-class.
• Only 3 meters shorter in length than the Truculent
• 2 less tubes in the bow section
• Less crew and lighter external guns

This sub was very successful throughout its service. Contrary to what I wrote previously, the Dutch subs performed quite well and were not all sunk ... I must have been thinking about something else.:p

I'm not sure what its SA would be. It certainly was a thorn to every axis power ... attacking the Germans, Japanese and Italians with some success. It made several long-range torpedo attacks (unsuccessful) but this might earn it a 1 at range 3.

SA:
Submerged Shot

[Taisho Bo]

sounds good to me!
but why'd you choose the O-21, because of its size? I think the O-19 did more attacks on bigger vessels..

[Torps]

Try using the 'Run Silent' SA.
The Dutch used similar stealthy tactics to the British.

A Dutch task force should be able to include American, British and Australian allies under a Dutch ship with a flagship ability.

[Taisho Bo]

Ok then, at this point it would seem best to use the following for the Dutch submarine HNLMS O-21;
use the Truculent model, with the I-19's stats, plus the Run Silent SA, at 13 pts cost.

[Torps]

Ok then, at this point it would seem best to use the following for the Dutch submarine HNLMS O-21;
use the Truculent model, with the I-19's stats, plus the Run Silent SA, at 13 pts cost.

That sounds pretty good to me. I suppose we should start playtesting some of these Dutch ships being described here.

[Taisho Bo]

I will, soon.
Now I can deploy a Dutch cruiser/destroyer/sub fleet, with maybe a little USN aircover. I will put them up against the IJN.
Mind you, the Dutch pretty much lost most of their IJN battles, so a defeat would only be realistic.. ;)

[Vornargith]

sounds good to me!
but why'd you choose the O-21, because of its size? I think the O-19 did more attacks on bigger vessels..


It started off as a random pick, but 0-21s record was more diverse ... Italian, Germans and Japanese .... she nailed 2 german subs as well. The 0-19 scored on a Heavy Cruiser ... but in the end th 0-21 seemed to have the better track record. It would've been a challenge to paint the martini glass on the I-19 ;).

Your stats seem spot-on ... I'll have to put a card together ... just to complete the Dutch set ;)

[Taisho Bo]

Terrific! Dank je! (thats Thanks in Dutch)

[Vornargith]

Bitte ... German's the Closest I can get to Dutch.

[Taisho Bo]

gotta watch that, cuz thats a bit sensitive overhere..

[Vornargith]

Sorry ... I should've remembered. I had a very interesting conversation with an ephemera shop owner about the dutch culture and German-influences. I'd like to learn more about cultural etiquette ... that sensitivities exist in many forms throughout the world and how they developed are important to history.

[Taisho Bo]

well what can I say in short.. I guess its a sort off David vs Goliath complex, with the Dutch wanting to hold their own against relatively huge Germany, culturally speaking. Plus the German language sounds like a kind of humorously exagerated accent to the Dutch. And oyeh, our parents experienced a pretty nasty occupation just 60 years ago, ofwhich theres still alot of stories.

[doganpc]

Just thought i'd remark about how nice it would be to have somthing for the Japanese to be favored against.

Doganpc
Even the underdogs get tired.

[Taisho Bo]

I have playtested the Dutch fleet yesterday (100pt battle). And I'm pleased to say, the Dutch can hold their own! Contrary to my expectations the Dutch won! I played 1 DeRuyter, 3 Java Class cruisers, 2 WitteDeWith type destroyers and 3 O-21's vs Myoko Tone 2 yukikaze and 2 I-19. It was a nice match with interesting ASW deployment.