Questions re: Panzerblitz in LHTR

[cousin_joe]

Panzerblitz
If your attacking forces destroy all defending units in a territory in one cycle of combat, any of your surviving tanks in the attacking forces may move 1 territory during the noncombat move phase.

1. Does this mean tanks can move 2 spaces to get to the combat zone, then move 1 more territory on NCM if all defending units are cleared in one cycle (thus, essentially allowing the tank to move 3 spaces)? Or is the tank still limited to just 2 movement spaces?

2. If a player has Panzerblitz, can they move an ARM in the noncombat move, if it arrived by amphibious assault?

eg. On G1, Germany attacks Egypt with 1INF,1ARM Libya, 1FTR Balkans and 1INF,1ARM SEurope via TRN SZ 14 (assume Ger wins the SZ 15 battle). Germany kills all the defending UK units (INF,ARM,FTR) in one turn with 1INF,2ARM,1FTR remaining.

Can Germany move both their ARM back to Libya on the Non-combat move if they have Panzerblitz? Or, can they move only one, as the other arrived by amphibious assault?

Rule A:
A tank that encounters enemy units in the first territory it enters must stop there
Rule B:
Loading onto and/or offloading from a transport counts as a land unit’s entire move; it cannot move before loading or after offloading.
Obviously, Panzerblitz trumps Rule A, but is there any reason why it shouldn't be able to trump Rule B as well? Is there anything that makes Rule B more absolute than Rule A?

[axis_roll]

often times you can try to interpet a rule using 'realism' as a guide, but that often fails as often as it works.

I am going to argue that in this case, it works:

A tank that has been transported, lands and does battle has not really 'blitzed' the way a tank entering a battle via the ground... so in trying to use the realism rule in this manner, I would say that the amphibiously landed tank could not 'blitz' out of the battle.

But what do I know.. and how well have I applied the 'realism' rule???

[cousin_joe]

Hey axis_roll,

I'm debating for our game whether to take Panzerblitz or Luftwaffe Dive-Bombers. The answers to these questions will influence my decision. Hopefully I can get these answered soon so I can send you G1 before you're gone. :)

My thoughts:

1. I'm hoping the answer is yes, tanks essentially can move 3 spaces. I have a suspicion the answer might be no, but I'm really not sure. :confused:

2. I'm fairly sure that this will be a no. :(

[Carico67]

My initial memory is no to question 1 and also nop to number 2. I'm posting to FIDA boards for confirmation; I don't want to mis-inform and I don't have a perfect memory... (too many tackles and hits on the football field...)

[BlackWatch222]

"Panzerblitz
If your attacking forces destroy all defending units in a territory in one cycle of combat, any of your surviving tanks in the attacking forces may move 1 territory during the noncombat move phase."

1. Does this mean tanks can move 2 spaces to get to the combat zone, then move 1 more territory on NCM if all defending units are cleared in one cycle (thus, essentially allowing the tank to move 3 spaces)? Or is the tank still limited to just 2 movement spaces?

2. If a player has Panzerblitz, can they move an ARM in the noncombat move, if it arrived by amphibious assault?

eg. On G1, Germany attacks Egypt with 1INF,1ARM Libya, 1FTR Balkans and 1INF,1ARM SEurope via TRN SZ 14 (assume Ger wins the SZ 15 battle). Germany kills all the defending UK units (INF,ARM,FTR) in one turn with 1INF,2ARM,1FTR remaining.

Can Germany move both their ARM back to Libya on the Non-combat move if they have Panzerblitz? Or, can they move only one, as the other arrived by amphibious assault?

Rule A: A tank that encounters enemy units in the first territory it enters must stop there

Rule B: Loading onto and/or offloading from a transport counts as a land unit’s entire move; it cannot move before loading or after offloading.

Obviously, Panzerblitz trumps Rule A, but is there any reason why it shouldn't be able to trump Rule B as well? Is there anything that makes Rule B more absolute than Rule A?


My take on it is yes to both. Every national Advantage is an exception to the rules in the rest of the game, and if the language in the NA section clearly says you can do something, then there is no reason for you to not be able to do it.

BW

[DY]

Yeah I'd like to believe BW over Carico on this one.

[axis_roll]

One more rule against amphib tanks being panzers...

Amphib assualt ground units can never withdraw, while ground troops in a non-amphib assualt have withdrawal as an option out of a battle.

Personally, I think of withdrawing from combat as a special form of non-combat movement.

[Carico67]

Guys, Larry is away on vacation but should be back soon. Let us run this over with him and I'll get you a definite one way or the other. I'll also shoo Mike S an email to see whose NA idea this was and what intent was...

C2

[BlackWatch222]

One more rule against amphib tanks being panzers...

Amphib assualt ground units can never withdraw, while ground troops in a non-amphib assualt have withdrawal as an option out of a battle.

Personally, I think of withdrawing from combat as a special form of non-combat movement.

The panzerblitz move can only be used in a VERY successful attack (Germany must win the battle outright in 1 round of rolling: if it takes 2 or more rounds, the advantage disappears), so this is a long way from any comparisons with retreats.


"I think of withdrawing from combat as a special form of non-combat movement"

This way of thinking causes errors to occur in pbem games on occasion. Retreats are part of conduct combat, and players MUST declare retreat locations as part of conduct combat for that particular battle before going on to resolve any other battle. If they wait until the non-combat phase to declare the location of the retreating units, they risk being accused of waiting to see the results in another battle before deciding the retreat location. If an adjudicator is called in, he may make the player re-roll the second battle if there is any doubt in his mind about this.

BW

[cousin_joe]

Thinking about it more, I would have to say the answer should be Yes to both questions. As Blackwatch points out, The National Advantages are a long list of exceptions to the normal rules, and the pattern seems to be, that what the National Advantages say you can do, goes (ie. trumps everything). Furthermore, in the AH manual, if normal rules override a particular aspect of the NA's, this is usually explicitly stated in the NA description.

From a rule design point of view, the implication would be that the German Panzer "blitz" overwhelmed the opposition so quickly (defeated in 1 round), that in the time period one turn represents, there was time to squeeze in an additional movement point. This would apply to both questions I asked, even though under normal rules, they would be required to stop.

[Mike Selinker]

Panzerblitz allows a noncombat move no matter how the tank gets there. So if it offloaded and fought a combat, it may move in the noncombat move. It will get 3 movement points if it moved 2 to get there. It will get 1 point if it was offloaded. The rules of the tank have been overwritten by this national advantage (as all national advantages overwrite one or more rules), including the rule that its movement is over when it offloads.

Mike

[cousin_joe]

Thanks for that answer Mike, and the prompt reply. :)