Neural Dream's Custom Cards: Greek Army (Italian Invasion)

[NeuralDream]

Open to criticism, as always. Next week I owe you the rest of the Soviets (Winter War) and the Italians during the Invasion of Greece.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r111/NeuralDream/AxisAllies/Greek/greekskitroops.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r111/NeuralDream/AxisAllies/Greek/PZLP24.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r111/NeuralDream/AxisAllies/Greek/greekmajor.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r111/NeuralDream/AxisAllies/Greek/GreekLMG.jpg

[NeuralDream]

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r111/NeuralDream/AxisAllies/Greek/greekdeterminedriflemen.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r111/NeuralDream/AxisAllies/Greek/evzone.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r111/NeuralDream/AxisAllies/Greek/greekcavalrymen.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r111/NeuralDream/AxisAllies/Greek/BoysATRm-37.jpg

[NeuralDream]

placeholder for future cards

[NeuralDream]

and one more placeholder for future cards

[raevski]

Wow i love you. Beautiful cards:) :) :)

[Anpu42]

So what would be the Short hand for the Greeks
GK or GR?

[Lotus]

Hell-yah...let's get some greeks into the theater!

Nice work.

[horacus]

Very good work sir.

[Richter von Manthofen]

So what would be the Short hand for the Greeks
GK or GR?

I vote for HE = Hellas :D

[polish_horsy]

4 speed? that is some fast skiing.

[NeuralDream]

4 speed? that is some fast skiing.
I think that a horseman and a skier have the same average speed, in their respective environments of course. What do you think?

[Plagued]

I think that a horseman and a skier have the same average speed, in their respective environments of course. What do you think?

Looking at the card, it sounds good, but perhaps some other conditional. I'm thinking that the skis would come off once the fighting started.

Perhaps, it loses the movement bonus if it were involved in any combat on the last turn? Or something of the kind.

[polish_horsy]

I think that a horseman and a skier have the same average speed, in their respective environments of course. What do you think?

not a chance. I'd give the skier speed 2 if using winter maps and call it good. He's twice as fast as regular troops which should be about right. And he can ignore penaties specific to winter maps such as snow drifts or other movement penalties.

[NeuralDream]

not a chance. I'd give the skier speed 2 if using winter maps and call it good. He's twice as fast as regular troops which should be about right. And he can ignore penaties specific to winter maps such as snow drifts or other movement penalties.
2 is practically the speed of troops using the inspired lieutenant and the speed provided by banzai. Thus, I think that skis should have at least speed 3 if not 4. I'll need more opinions on this.

I remind you that:
1 is soldier marching fast (10+km/h)
2 is soldier sprinting (20+km/h) and slow tanks (the R-35 had 24km/h speed IRRC).
3 is medium-speed tank (30km/h), such as KV-1.
4 is a fast tank driving offroad (40km/h like the Sherman) and a Polish cavalryman (about 40km/h too).
5 is a recon offroad (50+km/h like the 222).

[Richter von Manthofen]

If you walk fast you do around 1 km within 10 minutes.

a hex is around 100 m. you can do 2 hexes in a given turn (without attacking) A turn is 1 minute, so speed is 60*200m per hour or around 12 km/h - which already is more than fast walking. with the insp lt it would be 18 km/h

A ski trooper would with spped 4 do 48 KM/h - thats too much...

Maybe if he moves from a hill to open ground he has speed 4 ;)

[polish_horsy]

well I suppose you could give him the special ability Wheeeeee! when this unit moves from a hill to a clear hex he gets +1 speed. Then speed 2 seems fine to me. You could give him speed 3 if you want of course. I just think speed 4 is crazy.

[Harold76]

well I suppose you could give him the special ability Wheeeeee! when this unit moves from a hill to a clear hex he gets +1 speed. Then speed 2 seems fine to me. You could give him speed 3 if you want of course. I just think speed 4 is crazy.

Heheheheh.. I just has this mental picture of some saying "And now my ski troops are going to WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE into this hex...."

What about combining Tally Ho and WHEEEE!!!? "My Olympic skiers are going to Tally-WHEEE!!! across the board!!!!!"

[Colonel_Coo]

Ski Trooper:
Speed 1.

Special Ability:
Snow Skies: On snow terrain this unit may move additional hex if it a clear snow hex.
Silent movement: this unit doesn't provoke defensive fire when moving from or into a non-clear snow hex.
Bi-athelete: This unit may attack and then move during the combat its combat step. If it does, it gains +1/+1 defense until the end of the turn.

So I can move two hexes during movement, slip into an enemy hex, have that enemy basically get screwed if it is in a cover hex, make an attack and then ski two hexes away from the defending unit and to safety (or at least medium range).

[NeuralDream]

Ok, I guess the ski troops shouldn't be that fast. Strange that nobody commented on the Finnish ski troops I had last week (and I'll also have to correct).


Ski Trooper:
Speed 1.

Special Ability:
Snow Skies: On snow terrain this unit may move additional hex if it a clear snow hex.
Silent movement: this unit doesn't provoke defensive fire when moving from or into a non-clear snow hex.
Bi-athelete: This unit may attack and then move during the combat its combat step. If it does, it gains +1/+1 defense until the end of the turn.

So I can move two hexes during movement, slip into an enemy hex, have that enemy basically get screwed if it is in a cover hex, make an attack and then ski two hexes away from the defending unit and to safety (or at least medium range).

The general idea is nice, but this is a rather complicated set of SAs. Let's see if there is a way to make it easier and simpler.

[Latro]

Just speed 2 on snow ... unless there is some historical justification to turn them into supermen. As far as I know they were mostly regular troops with ski-training so so could move around better in the snow. It was the correct tactical use of them that made such an impact ... not because of some super training/weapons/genetic enhanced clones from the future.


:cool:

[NeuralDream]

Greek and Finnish ski troops corrected. Hit refresh if it still shows the old card.

[greo]

A few corrections: I doubt if any Greek citizen knew even the word "ski" in 1940 :). Nowdays there is such unit but I never heard something like that for the Albanian war. Maybe I'm mistaken
The SMG has Chinese banner
It is Evzonoi not Evzone

And a small note: The officer in the photo is the first officer lost in WW2 for Greek Army (M.Frizis)

Anyway, great job and great cards. Other info and photos in the Greece topic.

[Richter von Manthofen]

Ok, I guess the ski troops shouldn't be that fast. Strange that nobody commented on the Finnish ski troops I had last week (and I'll also have to correct).


the Finns are that fast... You only have to watch Eurosport channel :D

[FlyingDutchman]

2 is practically the speed of troops using the inspired lieutenant and the speed provided by banzai. Thus, I think that skis should have at least speed 3 if not 4. I'll need more opinions on this.

Not all skiiing is downhill nor done by Olympic athletes :-) Also, you would not be able to get of a good shot when you are exhausted skiiing and hence there is some time required to get the rifle of your back, unlock the skiis, find cover etc. Therefore, speed 2 would be more than enough IMHO.

Good work on the cards!

[NeuralDream]

A few corrections: I doubt if any Greek citizen knew even the word "ski" in 1940 :). Nowdays there is such unit but I never heard something like that for the Albanian war. Maybe I'm mistaken.

:) The Greek ski troops were first formed in 1940 out of the most athletic members of the ski club of Athens. The photo is authentic.

The SMG has Chinese banner
Thanks. Corrected.

It is Evzonoi not Evzone.

I'm using the singular, which, in English, is Evzone. Maybe I should use the plural (Evzonoi, or Evzones). In terms of their stats though I think I have underpowered them. I know that nowadays they are only for ceremonial purposes, but at the time weren't they the main sharpshooters of the army?

And a small note: The officer in the photo is the first officer lost in WW2 for Greek Army (M.Frizis)

Indeed.

Anyway, great job and great cards. Other info and photos in the Greece topic.
Thanks. I'll do many more units for the Greco-Italian War and a few for the Free Greeks in North Africa. Next week the Italians of this war.
I need your feedback in all my cards to make sure they are balanced.

[greo]

Interesting about the skiers! Thanks I'll make a search.

In Greek the singular (in the official 1940 greek) was O Evzon (Ο Εύζων), now it is Evzonas, and Oi Evzonoi (Οι Ευζωνοι) the pluriel. Since it is used the term Infantrymen, Evzonoi sounds more correct.

As you can see the succesfull use of AT-grenades makes an Anti-tank Grenadier (with 7 C.A.) needed. Maybe a rifle-grenadier since the VB riflegrenades were one of the Greek MVP for the war.

I also notice the lack of a good defender and a unit with a good defencive fire ability. Do you know the story of the Hill 731 with 12.000 Italian dead after 18!!! unsuccesfull assaults in 7 days?

[NeuralDream]

Interesting about the skiers! Thanks I'll make a search.

In Greek the singular (in the official 1940 greek) was O Evzon (Ο Εύζων), now it is Evzonas, and Oi Evzonoi (Οι Ευζωνοι) the pluriel. Since it is used the term Infantrymen, Evzonoi sounds more correct.

Yes. I'll have to make it Evzonoi. When I go home today.


As you can see the succesfull use of AT-grenades makes an Anti-tank Grenadier (with 7 C.A.) needed. Maybe a rifle-grenadier since the VB riflegrenades were one of the Greek MVP for the war.

I think the Greeks were using the Lebel 1893 grenadier rifle of the French and were calling them "troblonists", because they look liked trombones.
But you say they also used Anti-Tank grenadiers, so I'll check that too. Also, in the other thread you mentioned the Hawkins 75 which I'll also add. Last, I believe they used Skoda 37mm ATGs.


I also notice the lack of a good defender and a unit with a good defencive fire ability. Do you know the story of the Hill 731 with 12.000 Italian dead after 18!!! unsuccesfull assaults in 7 days?
No. Never heard of it! Info plz!!!

[greo]

As you read it. It is a sacred place for the Italians and their disaster place for the Primavera attack. They call it "quota 731" Ypsoma (Ύψωμα) 731 in Greek. Details tommorow.

I posted the exact numbers of the artillery used by Greek army. We had less than 100 Skoda, I will send tommorow the exact number.

Maybe I do not use the english terms very well. Hawkins 75 was quite widely used and in greek is called AT-grenade or "portable mine". I don't know the exact translation. When I said AT-grenadiers I meant the Hawkins grenades.

Viviene-Bessiere (VB) I think was the tromblone, I'll check my books again.

[NeuralDream]

As you read it. It is a sacred place for the Italians and their disaster place for the Primavera attack. They call it "quota 731" Ypsoma (Ύψωμα) 731 in Greek. Details tommorow.

I posted the exact numbers of the artillery used by Greek army. We had less than 100 Skoda, I will send tommorow the exact number.

Maybe I do not use the english terms very well. Hawkins 75 was quite widely used and in greek is called AT-grenade or "portable mine". I don't know the exact translation. When I said AT-grenadiers I meant the Hawkins grenades.

Viviene-Bessiere (VB) I think was the tromblone, I'll check my books again.

Thanks, plz check.

[CaptainHans]

I'm not unfamiliar with snow. But my question is why do skis make people go faster on snow than what someone could run over clear ground? From my experience I didn't go any faster skiing than when I would run across the open ground.
Maybe there should be some sort of movement penalty associated with snow and skis would ignore it. For example soldiers may not move in the movement phase in snow hexes or require a movement roll. This I feel better represents trudging through snow even as shallow as 1 foot. But I find it hard to believe someone could ski cross country 400m in 60 seconds (aprox 2 times as fast as I can run).

[polish_horsy]

because you are not "running" in a battle like you are wearing track shoes.

A person can run 100 meters in 10 seconds. should soldiers get speed 6?

The truth is it is easier to carry gear and maintain your pace with skis assuming you are well trained. That said I still think speed 2 is fast enough. You could still throw in the Wheeeeee! special ability though.

[NeuralDream]

because you are not "running" in a battle like you are wearing track shoes.

A person can run 100 meters in 10 seconds. should soldiers get speed 6?

The truth is it is easier to carry gear and maintain your pace with skis assuming you are well trained. That said I still think speed 2 is fast enough. You could still throw in the Wheeeeee! special ability though.
hehe, as much as I love it :D (haha, even thinking of it being used I smile), it's getting things complicated. I think speed 2 is quite right.

[CaptainHans]

because you are not "running" in a battle like you are wearing track shoes.

A person can run 100 meters in 10 seconds. should soldiers get speed 6?

The truth is it is easier to carry gear and maintain your pace with skis assuming you are well trained. That said I still think speed 2 is fast enough. You could still throw in the Wheeeeee! special ability though.

Thats correct but is a person on skies 2 times as fast as the person on foot? In snow I can believe it probably 3 or 4 times faster actually. But the movement on foot was not designed for snow. Thats my problem from my experience snow should give a penalty to those on foot. Maybe I need to see the snow rules and judge from there.

[greo]

1. Troblonists used Lebel 93 rifle with the VB adaptation. I understood wrong VB was not a special gun, just a modification to the Lebel.

2. Skoda 37mm was not used. Only 46 Skoda 75mm. Also we had about 20 88's and another 20 Bofors

3. I found too a photo of the greek alpine troops. I have to scan it, because it's in a book.

4. 731 was the main objective for the first day of the Primavera attack of the Italian forces. Mussolini came himself in an opposite hill to inspect the triumph himself. The artillery bombing and the gun grazing for over a week was so strong that every flora in the hill dissappeared, all the trenches were destroyed and the pillboxes too. Italians made 18-20 assaults, without gaining a meter. After one point the legend says that dead Italian bodies were used for cover, forming human body walls. Mussolini lefted disgusted 2 weeks after the begin of the attack, asking for cease-fire only in Ypsoma 731 (quota 731), to collect the bodies. The Greek responce was that we would accept a complete cease-fire. So it all resulted to an end of the Primavera operations. Italians raise the number of killed soldiers up to 12.000 with almost 50.000 injuries. As an Italian (I think) writer said "12.000 dead would be an acceptable loss cost, if the result was a victory. But the result was nothing, for an attack that took place just to satisfy a man's vanity".
Discaimer: My sources are greek, so maybe they are exaggerating, though I have no indication for that

[NeuralDream]

Thanks for the information. I didn't know about 731.
2. Skoda 37mm was not used. Only 46 Skoda 75mm. Also we had about 20 88's and another 20 Bofors
I guess the 88s and Bofors weren't available when the invasion began, right?

[greo]

The Bofors yes, the 88's were bought before the start of war for Greece

[NeuralDream]

The Bofors yes, the 88's were bought before the start of war for Greece

Seriously? Then the 20 88s must have massacred the Italian tanks.

[Richter von Manthofen]

I believe some of these AA guns were use for the original purpose ;)

[Latro]

Also, since it was very hard for both sides to even get the regular supplies to stay alive and keep fighting into that area ... bringing that big AA Gun over there might have been simply not possible.


:cool:

[greo]

The biggest problem for any reading I have done for the Italian invasion (kind of... :D) is that Greek writers underestimate the role of artillery to maximize the praise for the greek soldier and his heroism.

So I have big problem to find the exact use of each artillery type in specific battles and their records.

The truth is that many weapons especially from the British reinforce aid didn't took any part in the war because they could not been sent to the battlefront and the extreme diversity of weapon types caused big problem to ammunition supplies

[Rick]

Seriously? Then the 20 88s must have massacred the Italian tanks.

Greece was Allied with Brition. My bet [not sure mind you] is that those '88's are not the German ones, but the British artillery ones. Those were fine as aritillery, but didn't amount to much as AT.

[greo]

No they were the Krupps 88's.

Metaxas bought it sometime during his dictatorship. Don't forget he was a fascist dictator and bought many weapons from Germany (20mm flak, 37mm flak, about 50.000 Mausers, Krupps 75mm etc). If there was no Italian aggresion during the whole 1940 we never know if Greece would have been involved into WW2