Pieces that got better since 2.0

[GnomeatWork]

Hey all

First off, let me be very positive to say that the 2.0 rules have been well received in my gaming group. I see the maps in the new starter are on better paper than the expanded rules, so someone at AH was listening.

Since the platoons came out, I haven't played a game (outside a draft) where both players didn't use at least one. Looking forward to more platoons to further utilize some of the less appealing pieces from the older sets. I am also very happy about the recosting of many units, and hope that at some point in the future these cards will be available as downloads, including the SSPG and Ranger recosts.

OK enough of that....

Certain units have become much much better since the expanded + 2.0 rules set. Here are some of my favorites:

UK Gliderborne tanks
With smaller deployment zones, these puppies appear a lot further downfield than before. Setup second and then go first, and you've got overwatch positions the axis are going to be fighting through while your inspired infantry run to defensive terrain around the objective. Just waiting for an official platoon to make these even better.

Anti-aircraft guns
Making it harder for other units to hit planes (like MGs) makes these units better. But what makes them much more awesome is the overwatch. The Ger. 20mm and the UK Bofors are both better pieces. The Bofors was an excellent value before, now its really killer.

81 mm mortars
Of course the US mortar is much better than any other, overwatch has improved all of these units. I like to ride a SU FO on a tank.

Halftracks
I always liked these pieces. I like multi-objective maps, since these reward larger, mobile armies. At 6 points for the 251, I love it.

What got worse?
Fixed turret tank-destroyers.
Now the Def. Fire takes place immediately, the ability to roll through these makes them worse in comparison to turreted tanks. Those Hetzers are just not as good a value as they were. This is a positive change, since I think many of the no turret vehicles were undercosted before. I still love the 15 pt. StGIII, am hoping to see a platoon with this unit now that it isn't as good a deal, comparatively. These units were very widely produced (by both the Germans and AH) and should appear in a lot of games.

your thoughts?

Gnome

[polish_horsy]

gliderbourne: you still can't deploy in the other guy's setup area though right?

[GnomeatWork]

No... but with only a 3 hex deployment zone, it matters a lot less. Overwatch is what really makes these pieces deadly. It does help to setup second and go first.

I like an HQ with the Brits to overcome the commander disparity with the SS-Haupt, and use Humbers, Archers & Brens. A fuel depot makes those archers much more useful. A bofors or two makes the germans think twice about deploying those nasty Junkers to relieve the brits of the archers or the fuel depot.

gnome

[Qmark]

Here's an interesting unit that got slightly worse by being reissued in 39-45 - Light Tank M3 (aka Stuart).
The US version (assuming it's otherwise identical) will always be fifteen points. When used in an all Commonwealth army, the UK version has an effective cost of 14.3 points

[Shank77]

The Halftracks are the one peice that changed the most in 2.0 over the rest, I think. I have started putting army builds togather with halftracks, a piece I never used before.

[Photoner Hawkwind]

Would any of you mind posting a scanned copy of the cards with the changes?

[fecktor]

Would any of you mind posting a scanned copy of the cards with the changes?

Just wondering, can we do that and not break CoC?

[orclrob]

"81 mm mortars
Of course the US mortar is much better than any other, overwatch has improved all of these units. I like to ride a SU FO on a tank.
"

Overwatch with an Indirect fire unit? Is this possible? Also doesn't the forward observer need to be US and not SU to get the US Mortar benefit?

[Qmark]

Anything with Relocate can overwatch, even units that really shouldn't, and any artillery that doesn't have Relocate cannot, even if it should.
That is, unless an obscure thread in Rules Q&A says otherwise, but good luck convincing the other guy when actually playing.

[GnomeatWork]

To Orclrob -

you misunderstood what I was saying. The US mortar is overpowered since every US unit can spot. (It looks like even aircraft, too - unless anyone knows something I don't). End of that thought.

The Russian mortar is very powerful when a russian FO is on a T34 or KV1, since that FO can effectively move in the assault phase, and these tanks are hard to kill. German FOs on a half-track are too vulnerable to ride around all day.

The Russian mortars are especially deadly since they can benefit from bravery enforcement. (The new aircraft facing rules make the PPS submachine gunners less appealing as air defense for the mortars - while waiting on line to be bravery enforced.)

cheers
gnome

[Qmark]

The US mortar is overpowered since every US unit can spot. (It looks like even aircraft, too - unless anyone knows something I don't). End of that thought.Having a Mustang spot for a battery of M1's while a nearby commissar eats a KMT has always been good fun.

[Richter von Manthofen]

I don't see that those pieces have become better, they are still the same old pieces that they wee before.

the only pieces tht got better are those which got recosted or sometimes restated.

A mere change in map(layout) does NOT make a piece any better.

[Latro]

I don't see that those pieces have become better, they are still the same old pieces that they wee before.

the only pieces tht got better are those which got recosted or sometimes restated.

A mere change in map(layout) does NOT make a piece any better.

I don't agree with that. Change a just few units and the entire balance will change ... so even units that stay exactly the same will become better or worse compared to the rest.

That change might not be much, but it's still there.


:cool:

(Example: Transports got a lot cheaper and are used much more often ... as a result the Sturmovik, though the same in stats, has become better than before.)

[orclrob]

To Orclrob -

you misunderstood what I was saying. The US mortar is overpowered since every US unit can spot. (It looks like even aircraft, too - unless anyone knows something I don't). End of that thought.

The Russian mortar is very powerful when a russian FO is on a T34 or KV1, since that FO can effectively move in the assault phase, and these tanks are hard to kill. German FOs on a half-track are too vulnerable to ride around all day.

The Russian mortars are especially deadly since they can benefit from bravery enforcement. (The new aircraft facing rules make the PPS submachine gunners less appealing as air defense for the mortars - while waiting on line to be bravery enforced.)


cheers
gnome
Ahhh gotcha. Excellent tactic. I used Bravery Enhancement the other day in a "bring your best army build" game. I had a bunch of chinese infantry that were basically used as cannon fodder. My mortors and anti-tank guns tore up the oppenent with bravery enhancement.

I like your idea of an FU on an KV-1. I will use that in my next build for sure

[Colonel_Coo]

For me the following pieces picked up a lot of power in Expanded Rules:

Panzer IV. It's part of a lethal Platoon that can be used by 3 nationalities.

Huzagul 35m Hungarian. At 10 pieces per platoon, this little bugger has become very highly sought after. I finally got my 16th piece of the unit a few weeks ago. Two platoons gives you 2 light tank guns, 2 Commanders and SIXTEEN infantry. Coupled with the afore mentioned Panzer IV's, they can make a very deadly mess. I had one opponent fly his Spitfire into the edge, just to have me shoot 8 times at it and kill it. Ah, luck: throw enough times and you'll get lucky.

ALL AA guns. I like the new non-AA double trouble shooting. Around the edges, planes have an early game position and late game, they can sway the combat. So, I like bringing the AA guns.

All Heavy tanks: With a Single Heavy tank and some infantry, the Heavy tank is back in style and able to win games.

[Richter von Manthofen]

I don't agree with that. Change a just few units and the entire balance will change ... so even units that stay exactly the same will become better or worse compared to the rest.

That change might not be much, but it's still there.


:cool:

(Example: Transports got a lot cheaper and are used much more often ... as a result the Sturmovik, though the same in stats, has become better than before.)

thats a matter of perspective. Making the Jagdpanther chaeper makes it playable - thus Germany is no longer bound to cheap vulnerable units, so the Sturm actually get s WORSE than before...

You can measure worth relatively by comparing units, but you have to do it or each and every combination.

But thats NOT a viable way for 200+ unit.

So the measurement has to be "absolute" - only units can get better that actually changed...

Some Combinations have become better too ( all that rely on HTs for example..)

Though some will say the hellcat has become better (S+F 1) Though other think it has become worse +4 cost and loosing Flanking Attack

all in all it is largely a matter of tast what you think has become better

some even say that putting the SSPG to 7 points has made this unit better ;)

Some iunits got better of the platoons, but not necessarily because of v 2.0 (the Huzagol has not really gotten better - just chaeper - but thats good in itself ;))

[Himmler67]

I like the re cost of the King Tiger with makes it more playable. But I was wanting a more real world tank. Its defense and attack values are still way to low for this tank! It should have a defense of at least 9 or 10 and increases ed attacks of 1 to two more dice at every range. :mad:

[fecktor]

Its defense and attack values are still way to low for this tank! It should have a defense of at least 9 or 10 and increases ed attacks of 1 to two more dice at every range. :mad:

Hmm... how about "no thanks"? :D

[Dr.Cornelius]

I like the re cost of the King Tiger with makes it more playable. But I was wanting a more real world tank. Its defense and attack values are still way to low for this tank! It should have a defense of at least 9 or 10 and increases ed attacks of 1 to two more dice at every range. :mad:You can't have it both ways. Either the King Tiger is 62 points with current stats or it gets bumped up to 10/9 defense but costs 110 points.