Japan vs. China 1938 165 point battle

[M2A0]

In a attempt to regain his honor after the trouncing by my hands a few weeks ago, my coworker and I are planning on fighting out the entire war battle by battle. We are starting out the campaign with a visit to the battlefields of southern China circa 1938. To handicap myself I'm letting my coworker pick what side he wants in each battle, hence I'm running the Chinese. The Armies were built in secret, using a ToE of my design. I imagine I will lose, then again I have mad skills at this game compared to my coworker (newb) :eek:

Japan - Attacker

Infantry Company:
Arisaka Rifle x9
Type 97 Antitank Rifle x3
Imperial Sergeant x3
Type 89 Mortar x3
Honor-Bound Hero x1

MG Platoon:
Type 92 Machine-Gun Team x2

Tank Platoon:
Type 97 Te-Ke Tankette x3

Arty Battery:
70mm Type 92 x2
Ammo Dump x1

vs.

China - Defender

Armored Car Company:
Sd Kfz 222 x9

MG Company:
Kuomintang MG Team x6
Pillbox x1

Tank Platoon:
T-26 Series 1933 x5

I'll post the results after we fight.

[OIFvet]

In a attempt to regain his honor after the trouncing by my hands a few weeks ago, my coworker and I are planning on fighting out the entire war battle by battle. We are starting out the campaign with a visit to the battlefields of southern China circa 1938. To handicap myself I'm letting my coworker pick what side he wants in each battle, hence I'm running the Chinese. The Armies were built in secret, using a ToE of my design. I imagine I will lose, then again I have mad skills at this game compared to my coworker (newb) :eek:... I'll post the results after we fight.

I am sure the community would love to see the TO&E you have come up with for every nation. Please feel free to post it!

[Cruizin2000]

Yes, tell about more about your TO&E as well as the stats for the Japanese 70mm Type 92 Arty Battery.:)

C2K

[M2A0]

I am sure the community would love to see the TO&E you have come up with for every nation. Please feel free to post it!

I had completed Germany, UK, & CCCP, but I have not updated them since reserves. I'm just taking it one battle at a time right now for creating TO&E. Next up after this battle will be Japan vs. USSR in Manchuria Aug 1939.

[M2A0]

Yes, tell about more about your TO&E as well as the stats for the Japanese 70mm Type 92 Arty Battery.:)

C2K

Now then, I can't be telling ya stats :cool:

[M2A0]

Hopefully this will not be too jumbled up. Taking it off of a xl spreadsheet.





Japan 165 Point Battle

Infantry Platoon 31 Points
Arisaka Rifle x3
Type 97 Antitank Rifle x1
Imperial Sergeant x1
Type 89 Mortar x1


MG Platoon 14 Points Max of 3 Platoons
Type 92 Machine-Gun Team x2


AC Platoon 24 Points Max of 3 Platoons
Type 87 Armored Car x3


Tank Platoon A 21 Points
Type 97 Te-Ke Tankette x3


Tank Platoon B 27 Points
Type 95 Ha-Go x3


Arty Battery 20 Points Max of 1 Battery
70mm Type 92 x2


Support Units For every 3 Infantry Platoons in your build you may buy 1 of the units listed below

7 Points
Honor-Bound Hero x1

9 Points
Imperial Sniper x1


China

Infantry Platoon 8 Points
Kuomintang Rifleman x4


MG Platoon 12 Points Max of 3 Platoons
Kuomintang Machine-Gun Team x2


AC Platoon 24 Points Max of 3 Platoons
Sd Kfz 222 x3


Tank Platoon A 36 Points
L3/35 x4


Tank Platoon B 55 Points
T-26 Series 1933 x5


Support Units For every 3 Infantry Platoons in your build you may buy 1 of the unit listed below

5 Points
Kuomintang Officer x1

[OIFvet]

In a attempt to regain his honor after the trouncing by my hands a few weeks ago, my coworker and I are planning on fighting out the entire war battle by battle.

Will you also be doing the naval battles, soldier? ;)

[M2A0]

Of course. No Naval action until 39 though.

[horacus]

Well, looks nice.

[CaptainHans]

Japan - Attacker

Infantry Company:
Arisaka Rifle x9
Type 97 Antitank Rifle x3
Imperial Sergeant x3
Type 89 Mortar x3
Honor-Bound Hero x1

MG Platoon:
Type 92 Machine-Gun Team x2

Tank Platoon:
Type 97 Te-Ke Tankette x3

Arty Battery:
70mm Type 92 x2
Ammo Dump x1

vs.

China - Defender

Armored Car Company:
Sd Kfz 222 x9

MG Company:
Kuomintang MG Team x6
Pillbox x1

Tank Platoon:
T-26 Series 1933 x5

I'll post the results after we fight.

Isn't the Japanese hero 1942?
And where are the Chinese infantry?

[M2A0]

Isn't the Japanese hero 1942?
And where are the Chinese infantry?

Many of the dates on the cards are IMHO wrong. 1942 is assuming that Japan is not involved in ground warfare until Guadalcanal, etc.....

Japan was involved in ground combat in the Phillipines & Malaya in 1941. In China heavily since 1937, and to a lesser extent since 1933. The Soviets & Japanese fought a big little war in Manchuria for 6 months in 1939. So as far as I'm concerned the Honor Bound Hero can start cropping up in 1937.

The Chinese infantry deserted. IMO purchasing them is like throwing away 2 points. It will be tough enough for me to win as it is :)

[CaptainHans]

Ok fair enough! I think AAM did a really bad job on the KMT. As they stand they aren't really playable unless you only use machine guns. Its a shame that for you to be competitive you can't include the basic infantry.

There doesn't seem to be a unit limit so have you thought about dropping an armored car or 2 and taking 16 or 32 barbwires? I think it would be a more effective way of keeping the Japanese infantry at bay and away from your vehicles.

[M2A0]

Oh my armor & ACs are going on a death ride. My defense will be keeping the Japanese so busy with 14 cars/tanks running all around the maps, that my MGs can try to whittle down infantry.

I really don't plan on winning. If I do it will be a minor miracle. I've used Chinese riflemen on numerous occasions on the past. I've learned that they are a waste of points in almost all situations.

[fecktor]

Oh my armor & ACs are going on a death ride. My defense will be keeping the Japanese so busy with 14 cars/tanks running all around the maps, that my MGs can try to whittle down infantry.

I really don't plan on winning. If I do it will be a minor miracle. I've used Chinese riflemen on numerous occasions on the past. I've learned that they are a waste of points in almost all situations.

But they were such good point fillers back in the days of Set II, when we didn't have many alternatives for 2 points :D (well actually, not until D-Day that we didn't have other 2 points units :) )

[Maynard James Keenan]

China stands a good chance, keep your distance and pick off his soldiers. Scatter around to slow down his troops to preven getting to any of your units.

[Dr.Cornelius]

The only thing that makes Chinese riflemen even remotely useful is an Ammo Dump, but in this case the Japanese have the Dump.

For the Chinese to have any chance at all, they must kill the dump before the Japanese ATRs and MGs decimate the defense 2/2 Chinese armor.

Even with the dump threat removed, the Chinese have very little to keep the Honor Bound Hero from dominating the objective.

[M2A0]

I've fallen prey to an Honor-Bound in just such a scenario before. The hero waltzed across the battlefield immune to all incoming ordance and dispatched a T-26, & 2 222s (all that remained of my denuded forces at endgame). The Japanese ATR is a terror in early war battles against the Chinese & Soviets.

[Dr.Cornelius]

Are you planning an early war Japan-Soviet engagement? I would love to see a scenario for The Battle of Khalkin Gol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khalkhin_Gol).

The Combined Arms Research Library reference is a thorough and interesting read:

Japanese-Soviet Tactical Combat, 1939 (http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/drea2/drea2.asp#86a)

The Soviet armored attack, skillfully directed by General Georgi K, Zhukov of later World War II fame, rapidly turned the southern flank of the IJA's 23d Division, To the north, progress was slower, but after vicious fighting on Fui Heights, where flame-throwing Soviet tanks finally dislodged and routed the Japanese defenders, the "Red juggernaut" rolled up the Japanese right flank. At the village of Nomonhan, the Soviet armored columns met and sealed off the 23d Division. It seems certain that if the Soviets had pressed their pursuit operations, 6th Army would have been routed.

The Japanese 2/28th Infantry suffered almost 86 percent casualties ... yet the men held together as a unit. Significantly, Japanese doctrine made leadership like that displayed by Major Kajikawa the norm, not the exception. Even had Kajikawa been killed or otherwise incapacitated, it has been argued that the surviving junior officers and NCOs would have held the unit together.

Faced with devastating casualties and unimaginable hardships, the 2/28th did manage to function as a combat unit throughout the battle.

[M2A0]

I love the Leavenworth Papers. Nomonhan/Khalkin-Gol is a great battle to fight. Did it 2 years ago after Set II released. I played the Soviets, best showing I've ever seen from Mosin-Nagants in play, but I still lost. I'll be fighting it again in early January. We made a custom map for it using the maps from the article. I'd love to write this scenario if an early-war set is ever made.

[Dr.Cornelius]

The Japanese order of battle is well documented in the Leavenworth article, but it does not mention the specific Soviet tank models. T-26, BT-5 and BT-7 could have been in service in the east in '39. Do you have any info?

By the way, it would be great to have a Soviet flamethrower tank!

[Richter von Manthofen]

You could allow the BA-10 for the Chinese the 200th Division had them - I'd recommned to look the wiki article up on this unit - it shows a decent unit for the Chinese...

[Richter von Manthofen]

BTW the Rifleman should do fine with Enfilade fire...

[boersma8]

BTW the Rifleman should do fine with Enfilade fire...

Yes, that's also what I thought. You having all these fast little tanks and armoured cars, shouldn't have too much difficulty outflanking your opponent and setting up some enfilade fire situations....

Or aren't you playing with the expanded rules set? If not, I sincerely suggest you at least give it a try.....

[Cruizin2000]

Now then, I can't be telling ya stats :cool:

So, I guess that that Japanese 70mm Arty Battery piece is not just a house ruled set of stats, right??? Come on, 'fess up. Vie have vays of makin' you talk.:eek:

C2K

[M2A0]

You could allow the BA-10 for the Chinese the 200th Division had them - I'd recommned to look the wiki article up on this unit - it shows a decent unit for the Chinese...

I thought they only had the BA-6, but I could be wrong. The BA-10 has about 50% more armor, and roughly identical stats otherwise. Then again it would still have a 2 defense. I'm happy enough with the Chinese having a unit each supplied by Italy, Germany, & CCCP available. ALthough I will add it as an option if I ever fight this battle again.

[M2A0]

BTW the Rifleman should do fine with Enfilade fire...

I always use expanded rules, and I still think they are a waste of points :p

[Colonel_Coo]

I always use expanded rules, and I still think they are a waste of points :p


Using them wrong then. Keep them in reserve to help kill thoses pesky 5/5 fanatics. Don't allow your opponent an AOA against them (i.e Hmm, nothing to shoot at . . Oh wait there's a Rifleman!). Once those pesky 5/5 Hero's and fantatics start moving, march the Riflemen out front. That allows them to either stand at medium range to attack your MG teams OR waste attacks against a POS unit. If they ingnore the riflemen, march them forward and set up your Enfilade attacks from the MG team. Losing 2 riflemen to DF in order to get a 3rd unit to set up Enfialde is worth it. Those MG's firing at +1 to hit will kill SNLF's.

In regards to Hero's they are bit tougher as you have to dominate the covered postion. This means, sweeping the Riflemen out to the sides to kill off the Hero when it attempts to enter the hex with the MG team. Otherwise the Hero must attack at range 2 against the Rifleman or range 1 agains the MG team. Again the MG team should kill him with Enfilade Bonus's.

Play the Riflemen as "can't see him" for mos tof the game to enable the MG to perform admirably or ELSE march them forward to absorb bullets while your MG's do the heavy lifting.

By the way, your build sucks. Sorry, had to be said.

[Colonel_Coo]

China - Defender

Armored Car Company:
Sd Kfz 222 x9

MG Company:
Kuomintang MG Team x6
Pillbox x1

Tank Platoon:
T-26 Series 1933 x5

I'll post the results after we fight.

Since I poo-poo'd your build, here is my comments

First: Read the reports. China domintated the Japanes because of one unit and you don't have it in your build.
Start with the AMMO DUMP. 10points.

From your build, I think you spent 139 points.

Second you playing defense and worry about certain key enemy units (SNLF Fanatics and Honor Bound Hero) but you state that you are playing Expanded rules. Where are the Barbwires?

Next you worry a little about the Japanese Tanks, Where are the AT traps?

Add: 10 barbed Wire: 5 points.
Add: 1 AT traps: 1points.


Next: Add your platoons of Sd KFZ-222's if you want.
Add the next Armor as well. T-26.

79 more points. (95 spent, 44 left)

From Expanded: Chinese Infantry Company x 1.

Chinese MG team x 3.

139 points. If you get 140pt buy another Tank obsticle.



That gives you:
10 barb Wires
1 tank obsticle
10 Riflemen (see previous email on how to use them)
4 MG teams
5 T-26
3 SD KFZ-222's
1 Officer
1 Ammo Dump (keeps those MG teams from being disrutped from overheat)

When you chose defender, change the tiles to CLEAR to minimize your opponent and slide the objective toward you. This should be a Japanese blood-bath.

[M2A0]

Since I poo-poo'd your build, here is my comments

First: Read the reports. China domintated the Japanes because of one unit and you don't have it in your build.
Start with the AMMO DUMP. 10points.

From your build, I think you spent 139 points.

Second you playing defense and worry about certain key enemy units (SNLF Fanatics and Honor Bound Hero) but you state that you are playing Expanded rules. Where are the Barbwires?

Next you worry a little about the Japanese Tanks, Where are the AT traps?

Add: 10 barbed Wire: 5 points.
Add: 1 AT traps: 1points.


Next: Add your platoons of Sd KFZ-222's if you want.
Add the next Armor as well. T-26.

79 more points. (95 spent, 44 left)

From Expanded: Chinese Infantry Company x 1.

Chinese MG team x 3.

139 points. If you get 140pt buy another Tank obsticle.



That gives you:
10 barb Wires
1 tank obsticle
10 Riflemen (see previous email on how to use them)
4 MG teams
5 T-26
3 SD KFZ-222's
1 Officer
1 Ammo Dump (keeps those MG teams from being disrutped from overheat)

When you chose defender, change the tiles to CLEAR to minimize your opponent and slide the objective toward you. This should be a Japanese blood-bath.

I do not like, so do not use platoon formations from expanded rules. They are generally not historical in composition. The TO&E charts that I use to buy armies keep the builds much more historical. We also don't play with objectives, another rule I don't particulary care for.

I'm sure the tatics you mentioned above for the riflemen would work great. It just rubs me the wrong way to have sacrifice troops in such a way. If the Chinese riflemen didn't have lack of determination I would have bought droves of them.

[Colonel_Coo]

I do not like, so do not use platoon formations from expanded rules. They are generally not historical in composition. The TO&E charts that I use to buy armies keep the builds much more historical. We also don't play with objectives, another rule I don't particulary care for.

I'm sure the tatics you mentioned above for the riflemen would work great. It just rubs me the wrong way to have sacrifice troops in such a way. If the Chinese riflemen didn't have lack of determination I would have bought droves of them.

Since you are modifing the game so dramatically (no objective = different tactical game and ending), I would recommend that the Chinese office (a worthless piece of plastic) be granted:
Megaphone:
Units adjacent to this unit lose "Lack of Determination". Many people house rule the Chinese Officer this way.

As far as sacrificing units, the Chinese lost LOTS of men in WWII as well as civilians. Different country from the US and different value on the life of the soldier involved: hence, don't take it personal that your men are going to be destroyed.

Ever see Thin Red Line? In that movie whenJohn Cusack gets told "How many are you willing to sacrifice to take this hill?" Nice explanation on spending troops to accomplish a mission.

[M2A0]

The map has been rolled for and set-up will begin soon. We are playing on Winding Road II.

The Japanese are deploying first on the North edge.

[polish_horsy]

If the Chinese riflemen didn't have lack of determination I would have bought droves of them.

Or if they had close assault 4.

:)

[Col_Panzer]

Try and set up roadblocks partisian style fire into the Jappanese players units and run if you don't get killed also think about placing your men all over the board and don't group them together in any way.

[M2A0]

Well my coworker gave up after the 5th round. It was brutal he demands a rematch soon. Hard to believe but the Chinese only lost 6 units, the Japanese lost 23.

Japanese losses

Turn 1: Tankette x3
Turn 2: 70mm x2
Turn 3: Sgt., Mortar, Arisaka, ATR x3
Turn 4: Arisaka x3, Mortar x2, MG
Turn 5: Sgt., Arisaka x3, Ammo Dump

Chinese losses

Turn 1: T-26 x2
Turn 2: MG, 222
Turn 4: MG, 222

[Latro]

For someone who created more historically correct TOE based formations, I was surprised to see such an extreme build ... especially when facing (as you put it) a Noob.

Good win though, congratulations!


:cool:

(PS Not meant as bashing, trolling, denegrating etc ... just surprised.)

[Colonel_Coo]

Well my coworker gave up after the 5th round. It was brutal he demands a rematch soon. Hard to believe but the Chinese only lost 6 units, the Japanese lost 23.

Japanese losses

Turn 1: Tankette x3
Turn 2: 70mm x2
Turn 3: Sgt., Mortar, Arisaka, ATR x3
Turn 4: Arisaka x3, Mortar x2, MG
Turn 5: Sgt., Arisaka x3, Ammo Dump

Chinese losses

Turn 1: T-26 x2
Turn 2: MG, 222
Turn 4: MG, 222

I bet you found those T-26 tanks to be much more useful against the Japanese Armor than you originally thought. If the Chinese bring more tanks than the Japanese, then the Japanese are in real trouble.

Also, the MG teams of the Japanese must be loaded up on.

The Zero's 3/3 defense is bad enough, but its "explode when hit" ability just sends it to crapper. Useless against the Chinese and there are no IJA planes to play ground strike & strafe.

[M2A0]

For someone who created more historically correct TOE based formations, I was surprised to see such an extreme build ... especially when facing (as you put it) a Noob.

Good win though, congratulations!


:cool:

(PS Not meant as bashing, trolling, denegrating etc ... just surprised.)

The problem with the Chinese is that if you want to justify using any vehicles you need to play some part of the 200th Mechanized Division. So in a sense my build works. As far as the Noob, while he might not really know what he is doing tactics wise he is a fellow WotC employee. That makes him fair game for extreme ass-kicking :eek:

[M2A0]

I bet you found those T-26 tanks to be much more useful against the Japanese Armor than you originally thought. If the Chinese bring more tanks than the Japanese, then the Japanese are in real trouble.

Also, the MG teams of the Japanese must be loaded up on.

The Zero's 3/3 defense is bad enough, but its "explode when hit" ability just sends it to crapper. Useless against the Chinese and there are no IJA planes to play ground strike & strafe.

I never thought my T-26s wouldn't dominate the Japanese armor. That's the only reason I took a platoon of them. The Zero wasn't an option this early in the war. Well at least the particular model of Zero we have for the game. The Mitsubishi A6M Zero was not used in combat operations until August 1940 (in the skies over China).

[TK421]

So in a sense my build works. As far as the Noob, while he might not really know what he is doing tactics wise he is a fellow WotC employee. That makes him fair game for extreme ass-kicking :eek:

Reminds me of that Seinfeld episode when Kramer was taking Karate. :)

[Latro]

Nice ... now I'm stuck with M2A0 looking like Kramer doing Karate in my head.


:rolleyes:

(PS Always nice when you can put a face to a name huh?)

[CaptainHans]

A little advise for the Japanese player on the next go around. Take more Ha-Gos for a 165 points a min of 6 of them, preferably many more. The Ha-Go is one of the best axis tanks in the game and you need to take full advantage of it.

[M2A0]

Nice ... now I'm stuck with M2A0 looking like Kramer doing Karate in my head.


:rolleyes:

(PS Always nice when you can put a face to a name huh?)

I take after George not Kramer :p

[Richter von Manthofen]

I thought they only had the BA-6, but I could be wrong. The BA-10 has about 50% more armor, and roughly identical stats otherwise. Then again it would still have a 2 defense. I'm happy enough with the Chinese having a unit each supplied by Italy, Germany, & CCCP available. ALthough I will add it as an option if I ever fight this battle again.

Forgive me the freedom to throw the BAs into one basket, but we are lacking for early war anyway, so similar units should be allowed to stand in for each other ;)

[Cruizin2000]

I take after George not Kramer :p

Did you ever get your Twix bar??? :D

C2K