Heaven Question and Miracle Card Question

[DocD]

More questions for MIKE and others.
1) The Miracle cards timing definitely need to be address in the FAQ.
Suppose a player captures three territories on their turn and draw the wargod card 'our faith is our strength'. Now, the player can't use this card because the play miracle card phase has passed already. So the player holds the card until their next turn. Now on their next turn the player should get two extra faith tokens during the gather faith phase right? But technically, the player can't play this card until that phase has passed. If he waits until the play miracle card phase to play the card he can't get the tokens because that phase has already passed!! Am I reading too much into the cards or what?
2) if you are invading the gates of the underworld and have three men in your heaven, can you roll three dice since you don't need to leave an extra man behind in heaven?

[series]

More questions for MIKE and others.
1) The Miracle cards timing definitely need to be address in the FAQ.
Suppose a player captures three territories on their turn and draw the wargod card 'our faith is our strength'. Now, the player can't use this card because the play miracle card phase has passed already. So the player holds the card until their next turn. Now on their next turn the player should get two extra faith tokens during the gather faith phase right? But technically, the player can't play this card until that phase has passed. If he waits until the play miracle card phase to play the card he can't get the tokens because that phase has already passed!! Am I reading too much into the cards or what?
2) if you are invading the gates of the underworld and have three men in your heaven, can you roll three dice since you don't need to leave an extra man behind in heaven?
1) I think its supposed to be like that (you have to wait on your next turn, thus waiting 2 turns in total i guess).

2. Yeah, i would say so.

[holywolfman]

1)Actually...here is how it should be played out:

The card reads:

"Play on your turn...Gain 2 faith tokens for each temple you control..."

Remember the step order of play:

1)Raise armies/gather faith
2)Summon gods/ build temples
3)Obtain miracle cards
4)Play miracle cards
5)Suffer plague
6)Invade territories
7)Fortify a position
8)Embark from Heaven
9)Invade the underworld
10)End your turn!

...this means you WOULD NOT receive those 2 faith tokens until you play the miracle card on step# 4 !!!! (After receive faith)...Note:You can still use those 2 faith on another card or just hold on to them!

__________________________________________________ _______________

2) You DO NOT have to leave any units behind when "embarking" from the heavens....actually you can fortify your armies during this step...meaning if you had armies ALREADY in the underworld, you can just move any number of them onto a space containing at least (1) of your armies. But...when you invade in the underworld, you have to leave at least (1) army in the region you move out of just like on the "Big"-gameboard.

"....If you do control one or more spaces in the Underworld, you may move ANY NUMBER of your armies directly from heaven to ANY of the spaces you control, without using a gate..."
-pg 11-


....About the leaving an army behind from heaven; it is addressed here:


"...Remember, as with invasions on the Ancient Earth, you must leave at least 1 army behind in each space that you occupy, EXCEPT FOR YOUR HEAVEN..."
-pg 11-


[Hope that helps!]-;)

[series]

1)Actually...here is how it should be played out:

The card reads:

"Play on your turn...Gain 2 faith tokens for each temple you control..."

Remember the step order of play:

1)Raise armies/gather faith
2)Summon gods/ build temples
3)Obtain miracle cards
4)Play miracle cards
5)Suffer plague
6)Invade territories
7)Fortify a position
8)Embark from Heaven
9)Invade the underworld
10)End your turn!

...this means you WOULD NOT receive those 2 faith tokens until you play the miracle card on step# 4 !!!! (After receive faith)...Note:You can still use those 2 faith on another card or just hold on to them!

__________________________________________________ _______________

2) You DO NOT have to leave any units behind when "embarking" from the heavens....actually you can fortify your armies during this step...meaning if you had armies ALREADY in the underworld, you can just move any number of them onto a space containing at least (1) of your armies. But...when you invade in the underworld, you have to leave at least (1) army in the region you move out of just like on the "Big"-gameboard.

"....If you do control one or more spaces in the Underworld, you may move ANY NUMBER of your armies directly from heaven to ANY of the spaces you control, without using a gate..."
-pg 11-


....About the leaving an army behind from heaven; it is addressed here:


"...Remember, as with invasions on the Ancient Earth, you must leave at least 1 army behind in each space that you occupy, EXCEPT FOR YOUR HEAVEN..."
-pg 11-


[Hope that helps!]-;)
Your first point is pretty much what I said only with more details...

but as for the second, are you saying fortify from one Underworld space to another? Because I do not think this is allowed, unless of course they come from Heaven, in which case they can show up anywhere you have men... Mike Selinker once said that armies in the Underworld never fortify, and also, the rules do not say they do, so I don't know where you get this "if you had armies ALREADY in the underworld, you can just move any number of them onto a space containing at least (1) of your armies" stuff.

[holywolfman]

"....If you do control one or more spaces in the Underworld, you may move ANY NUMBER of your armies directly from heaven to ANY of the spaces you control, without using a gate..."
-pg 11-


....READ THE RULES CAREFULLY! It is on pg. 11...Word for Word- (I am not making it up!)- :rolleyes: -"embarking" is kind of 'like' reinforcing (if you will): Like you already stated: You are gathering armies from heaven to place where you have armies already located in the underworld! (to me..this would be a "form" of reinforcing!)...I understand you CAN NOT do the battles in the underworld and then move armies from (1) territory to another like on the Big Map

Recap:
If you don't have ANY armies in the underworld, you have to "attack" from your heaven into at least one of the 'Gate' in on the Underworld spaces...if you have armies already PRESENT on the Underworld spaces...then you can simpily place your armies on any space you have an army piece on an Underworld space!


but as for the second, are you saying fortify from one Underworld space to another?
...NO, I am saying what the rules say: I never said that you can fortify from one territory to another in the Underworld!...you can just place armies from heaven to ANY spaces where you have armies already there-(to me this is "like" reinforcing!)-but TRUE, this is not the same reinforcing on the Big Board!!!

...Then the next step would be: "Invade the underworld" (simpily put-ATTACK in the underworld just like you would as if you on the Ancient Earth (Big-Map) - :D


...People underestimate the Underworld: It can ultimately help you gain composure back on Ancient Earth (it can help you win godwars, help you gain extra armies if you have at least (2) on a crypt space, it can help you earn extra points towards the end of the game!!!)

[DocD]

1)Actually...here is how it should be played out:

The card reads:

"Play on your turn...Gain 2 faith tokens for each temple you control..."

Remember the step order of play:

1)Raise armies/gather faith
2)Summon gods/ build temples
3)Obtain miracle cards
4)Play miracle cards
5)Suffer plague
6)Invade territories
7)Fortify a position
8)Embark from Heaven
9)Invade the underworld
10)End your turn!

...this means you WOULD NOT receive those 2 faith tokens until you play the miracle card on step# 4 !!!! (After receive faith)...Note:You can still use those 2 faith on another card or just hold on to them!

__________________________________________________ _______________

Thanks wolfey! I thought I was reading too much into it. That makes sense, otherwise a player would never be able to play those cards.
Now the problem with how the rules are worded is that if you draw a card after spending two tokens (in the obtain Miracle card phase) and that card says collect two tokens you have to wait until the next turn instead of getting the tokens immediately. It would seem to me there should be TWO play miracle card phases. One at the start of the turn when you collect stuff and one after the obtain miracle card phase for anything else.
I guess these problems have been rectified in 2210.

[Mike Selinker]

Thanks wolfey! I thought I was reading too much into it. That makes sense, otherwise a player would never be able to play those cards.
Now the problem with how the rules are worded is that if you draw a card after spending two tokens (in the obtain Miracle card phase) and that card says collect two tokens you have to wait until the next turn instead of getting the tokens immediately. It would seem to me there should be TWO play miracle card phases. One at the start of the turn when you collect stuff and one after the obtain miracle card phase for anything else.

You're definitely reading too much into this, Doc. In your example, you got the card on your opponent's turn. On your next turn, in the play miracle cards step, you play the card and get the two tokens immediately (you don't need to wait for a gather faith step). Obviously, since your obtain miracle cards step is over when you play the card, you can't summon or obtain anything with those tokens. But you can immediately sacrifice the tokens to power another miracle card.

Mike

[holywolfman]

Basically (just like in Risk:2210), you have to buy all your cards FIRST (*without looking at them) and then on the "Play miracle card" phase, you would look at the cards and do what the card says..."gain 2 faith tokens" (or) "add armies here" (or) "draw 2 cards from a deck"...paying any cost of faith to play them!- :D

[DocD]

You're definitely reading too much into this, Doc. In your example, you got the card on your opponent's turn. On your next turn, in the play miracle cards step, you play the card and get the two tokens immediately (you don't need to wait for a gather faith step). Obviously, since your obtain miracle cards step is over when you play the card, you can't summon or obtain anything with those tokens. But you can immediately sacrifice the tokens to power another miracle card.

Mike
Actually, Mike in that example I got that card in my obtain miracle card phase.

[holywolfman]

..then you would receive (2) faith tokens on the 'Play miracle cards phase' in the same Epoch/Turn as you drew the card!

ANy rate- I am glad you have received (2) faith tokens!!! (lol)- :)

[DocD]

Basically (just like in Risk:2210), you have to buy all your cards FIRST (*without looking at them) and then on the "Play miracle card" phase, you would look at the cards and do what the card says..."gain 2 faith tokens" (or) "add armies here" (or) "draw 2 cards from a deck"...paying any cost of faith to play them!- :D
OK, Let's see if the Doc who doesn't own 2210 have all of this correct.

IF you obtain a card in your 'obtain a miracle card phase' you can use that card immediately afterward in the 'play miracle card phase'. Collect tokens, collect armies, attack opponents, draw more cards, etc.

IF you get the card any other time...like after conquering three territories or having a crypt at the end of the turn, etc...then you have to wait until your next turn "in the play miracle card phase" to play that card and get any goodies at that time correct?

[holywolfman]

Yes....That is correct!

"...By George...I think he's got it!" :D (lol) "Hip-Hip-Horay...!"

...Ding Ding Ding...
''What does he win.....Steve?"

"Well, Bob...he wins: A BRAND NEW CAR!"

"Well...not really....just the rights to play another Great Game of Risk:Godstorm....from the makers of A&A:Revised....and.....A&A D-Day comes this exciting NEW version of Risk...where you take on enemy forces, win favor with the gods, have an 'all-out-war' in the Underworld, where you can 'sink' Atlantis again and again.... ultimately wreaking Earthly havoc by AH/Hasbro: 'Making people smile'.....BACK TO YOU, Bob!

[DocD]

Thanks wolfman! That really shouldn't have taken that long to get, but so goes the god of thought.

[holywolfman]

Hey, DocD...I always enjoy talking to you- you are always a GOOD SPORT!
(I was just having a bit of fun)- :D I am glad (genuinely) that you understand now!