A&AR: Box Rules: Second thoughts...

[Kaufschtick]

I recently had the opportunity to give Cousin_Joe's A&A Enhanced rules a spin the other night. Very cool. We gave it two games over the week end, and then wanted to give the original rules another try, for comparison. The Axis rolled both games in Cousin_Joe's version. The group I game with has become split on whether the original rules were balanced enough, some saying yes and some saying it is too pro-Allies, with myself being in the later group.

However, the last game we played using the original rules may have me re-thinking my opinion.

I have been frustrated with how Germany has played out in our games thus far. I've had the Kill Germany First run on me so many times, it's not even fair! (I know, All's fair in love and war, yeah yeah). Anyway, I decided that since I knew what was coming, I was gonna try a buying strategy that DY had suggested on here some time ago.

I have always disliked playing a side that was a mostly "infantry buying only" power, as Russia was originally to us when we first started playing the original game so many moons ago. It seemed to me that that is what Germany had become in this new version. I couldn't bring myself to do it! You know, to be Germany you've got to be aggresive and all that, which to me meant mixing in different unit types in varying combinations and trying to push into Moscow. Anyway...

In our last game, I decided to just try and make Germany live as long as possible. I knew I was gonna get KGF'd and, in my mind,I had no chance to win what-so-ever as the Axis.(We have been playing the 9 V.C. condition) So, I decided to try buying only infantry for Germany, even to the point of saving the extra 1 and 2 IPC's here and there, instead of converting 1 or 2 infantry up to artillery. I have never been a believer in not converting up infantry when having the chance.

DY suggested this strategy to me once on here. I never gave much thought to trying it ,nooo, not me, nooo, I'm not going to buy only infantry, too boring and a sure way to guarantee a loss, or so I thought until last night!

Whaaa-Hooo! My very first Axis win! Thanks for the tip DY! I sure wish I'd taken that advice earlier :rolleyes: To top things off, instead of making for a very passive and dull German play out, it was more of a slug fest than ever with the Allies! A real knock-down, drag-out, last-one-standing affair! I'm so fired up after this, that if I ever should bump into DY somewhere down the road of life, there would definatly be a few rounds of brew on me! :D

I won't go into great detail here, suffice it to say that the Japanese tanks came riding in on the Russian Bear's backside to seal the deal.

It was no "flukey", one time win only strategy, either. It was more akin to going back to "three yards and a cloud of dust" football type strategy. No fancy carriers, no stacks of tanks or artillery. As DY correctly stated, the Germans have a good deal of offensive pieces to start with. Get them balanced back up with enough infantry, and the Allies definately have a fight on thier hands.

The other thing we liked about this, was the fact that we, as a group, were all starting to play the same game different ways, and this Axis win was using the original rules. Our group was actually starting to splinter into different camps. LHTR here, different victory cities there, A&A:Enhanced here, tons of different takes on national advantages and technologies. Now, we never were the type of group to go Tech. crazy in our games anyway. In fact, we very rarely, if ever used them. So, I can't even comment on them, as I've read a great deal about them being "broken" on here. Or some of them; I must have read four or five versions and revisions of heavy bombers on here. Roll two dice, then stand on your hands and how ever many times you wiggle your left ear is how much damage is caused, or something like that. :D

So, for any down and out Axis players out there, as I was once, give this "buy" strategy a try for Germany and you might start having second thoughts like me on just sticking with the box rules...

[axis_roll]

Everything you typed is 100% true. Keep Germany alive and let Japan win the game. Germany is the Anvil and Japan is the hammer. Just like the good ole days.... yes effective but play a few games where Germany only buys just infantry and you'll be screaming to play Japan or some other allied country.

It boils down to a race for capitals then... and who has more effectively traded their weaker capital for the other sides capital... and who is set up for the post capital swap war.

[DocD]

I have to say I've never considered that strategy, mostly because I've never had a problem winning with the Axis in any form.

Would be interesting to know though, what did US do? did it go after Germany first or Japan. Doesn't matter I guess, US too far away to do much in time most of the time.

Does make me want to make a plug here for vollick's variant on enhanced v1.2 though. With Japan tied up in pacific, Allies (and Russia) should have a better chance.

[Kaufschtick]

Effective= Boring. Yeah, unfortunately I'm afraid this is all too true. I will say it wasn't as boring as I thought it might be, probably because, as I started to see a chance to win, I really got all fired up! We just got tired of the lack of Axis overall strategies to go for in the original, and I'm afraid that's what's going to happen here, too.

At least, for the time being, and we'll see how long this lasts, it's a bragging rights issue to win as the Axis. They seem to have the tougher road to travel to win. Added to that is the fact that we've had precious few Axis wins in the first place.

We'll hold out hope that a second edition rules will come out sometime in the near future to keep the fires stoked and burning bright, and to keep the game from splintering into a ga-zillion different micro versions. :)

[Kaufschtick]

Would be interesting to know though, what did US do? did it go after Germany first or Japan.
The Allies went Kill Germany First. They had units retaking Africa and were hitting Southern Europe through the Med. as well as landing units in Norway, most notably.


Does make me want to make a plug here for vollicks version of Enhanced v1.2...
I do like the various "Micro-Brewery" versions that I've seen on here. The big problem with these are that the group I game with are #1.) About long time, good friends getting together for fun and tipping back some suds.

The group, as a whole, needs one clear and undisputed version of the game to play in order for this game to serve as our choice of a common interest thread. We tend to look at things simply, which is to say, that usually, if we don't like how it came in the box(after all, that's what we paid $$ for) then it usually just goes away as bad money spent. You know, we're talking more than just a couple people who will go out and buy a copy if we all like it. One person usually gets a copy, and we all check it out. If we like it, then everyone usually gets one . If we don't like what came out of the box, or too much "fixing" needs to be done or tinkering or whatever you want to call it, then we just write it off and nobody else buys it, and it just goes away.

[Lobo]

We'll hold out hope that a second edition rules will come out sometime in the near future to keep the fires stoked and burning bright, and to keep the game from splintering into a ga-zillion different micro versions. :)

I second that motion. If AH wishes to maintain AAR as a simple strategy game aimed at the teen market (fully understandable) then I would encourage them to produce a second, more complex version for those of us that grew up playing axis & allies, want to continue, but desire something more challenging.

[axis_roll]

There's a few ways to help Germany out (besides the more complicated rules changes)

You can give Germany a bid, or even give them a National Advantage (or two)....

[Lobo]

I do like the various "Micro-Brewery" versions that I've seen on here. The big problem with these are that the group I game with are #1.) About long time, good friends getting together for fun and tipping back some suds.

The group, as a whole, needs one clear and undisputed version of the game to play in order for this game to serve as our choice of a common interest thread. We tend to look at things simply, which is to say, that usually, if we don't like how it came in the box(after all, that's what we paid $$ for) then it usually just goes away as bad money spent. You know, we're talking more than just a couple people who will go out and buy a copy if we all like it. One person usually gets a copy, and we all check it out. If we like it, then everyone usually gets one . If we don't like what came out of the box, or too much "fixing" needs to be done or tinkering or whatever you want to call it, then we just write it off and nobody else buys it, and it just goes away.

I'm with you there. There are too many good games out there and not enough playing time to waste it fixing a game.

[Kaufschtick]

I'm with you there. There are too many good games out there and not enough playing time to waste it fixing a game.

You know it! I'm 38, married and a family. Most of my friends are married too, and the time we have to hang out is just way too precious to waste on, "lets try this..." or "How about this.." We enjoy looking forward to our "gaming" time and like to know ahead of time what we're playing so as to start plotting and scheming... :D

Now back in the day, unfortunately for me which is now a long time ago in a gallexy far, far away, we all had nothing better to do than just that, tinker around with rules. These days, that just translates into wasted time...

[Kaufschtick]

There's a few ways to help Germany out (besides the more complicated rules changes)

You can give Germany a bid, or even give them a National Advantage (or two)....

I think that these are the two best ways to balance things up too. I agree 100%.

I was shocked to sneak in a win without a bid or any N.A.'s :eek: . The bids are cool in that it doesn't take much of one at all. I've seen two ways to go with the bid. All pre- placement or 1/2 preplace 1/2 add to the Axis bank. If it's just strickly preplace, I think as little as 4 IPC's could even it up.

[axis_roll]

I've seen two ways to go with the bid. All pre- placement or 1/2 preplace 1/2 add to the Axis bank. If it's just strickly preplace, I think as little as 4 IPC's could even it up.

I think it's helpful (almost necessary??) to use the 1/2 preplace and 1/2 bank. Allies still rule in the box rules, IMHO.

Of course, I am not taking any tech rolls into account here. That throws the whole game balance argument out the window.

[cousin_joe]

I recently had the opportunity to give Cousin_Joe's A&A Enhanced rules a spin the other night. Very cool. We gave it two games over the week end, and then wanted to give the original rules another try, for comparison. The Axis rolled both games in Cousin_Joe's version. The group I game with has become split on whether the original rules were balanced enough, some saying yes and some saying it is too pro-Allies, with myself being in the later group.
Which version of Enhanced did you play? Replacing Atlantic Wall with Battle of the Bulge should push things back a bit towarsd the Allies favour.


However, the last game we played using the original rules may have me re-thinking my opinion.

I have been frustrated with how Germany has played out in our games thus far. I've had the Kill Germany First run on me so many times, it's not even fair! (I know, All's fair in love and war, yeah yeah). Anyway, I decided that since I knew what was coming, I was gonna try a buying strategy that DY had suggested on here some time ago.

I have always disliked playing a side that was a mostly "infantry buying only" power, as Russia was originally to us when we first started playing the original game so many moons ago. It seemed to me that that is what Germany had become in this new version. I couldn't bring myself to do it! You know, to be Germany you've got to be aggresive and all that, which to me meant mixing in different unit types in varying combinations and trying to push into Moscow. Anyway...

In our last game, I decided to just try and make Germany live as long as possible. I knew I was gonna get KGF'd and, in my mind,I had no chance to win what-so-ever as the Axis.(We have been playing the 9 V.C. condition) So, I decided to try buying only infantry for Germany, even to the point of saving the extra 1 and 2 IPC's here and there, instead of converting 1 or 2 infantry up to artillery. I have never been a believer in not converting up infantry when having the chance.

DY suggested this strategy to me once on here. I never gave much thought to trying it ,nooo, not me, nooo, I'm not going to buy only infantry, too boring and a sure way to guarantee a loss, or so I thought until last night!

Whaaa-Hooo! My very first Axis win! Thanks for the tip DY! I sure wish I'd taken that advice earlier To top things off, instead of making for a very passive and dull German play out, it was more of a slug fest than ever with the Allies! A real knock-down, drag-out, last-one-standing affair! I'm so fired up after this, that if I ever should bump into DY somewhere down the road of life, there would definatly be a few rounds of brew on me!

I won't go into great detail here, suffice it to say that the Japanese tanks came riding in on the Russian Bear's backside to seal the deal.

DY used this same strategy on me in a PBEM game, going nothing but INF for Germany (until later on anyways). I used the appropriate response, stack Karelia with the Allies. Talk about a SNOOZEFEST, zzzzzzzzzz. :rolleyes: When did we start this game DY, like in July!?!?! Incredibly boring to play, but when more people realize, as you have Kaufschtick, that a Ger INF push is a very safe strategy, that gives you a decent chance to win, well, this is what we'll have to look forward to. We're in G12 now of this sucker (yes, we've been playing veeerrryyy slllooowww) and it's all stacks, no action (well, maybe a little in the mid-East). Booorrriiinnnggg!

So to all those Allied players out there, to beat this strategy, just stuff Karelia and make sure you keep your economic advantage. That's pretty much you're only option under out of the box rules.:rolleyes:

[cousin_joe]

Everything you typed is 100% true. Keep Germany alive and let Japan win the game. Germany is the Anvil and Japan is the hammer. Just like the good ole days.... yes effective but play a few games where Germany only buys just infantry and you'll be screaming to play Japan or some other allied country.

It boils down to a race for capitals then... and who has more effectively traded their weaker capital for the other sides capital... and who is set up for the post capital swap war.
Couldn't agree with you more axis_roll :)

[Kaufschtick]

I think it's helpful (almost necessary??) to use the 1/2 preplace and 1/2 bank. Allies still rule in the box rules, IMHO.

Of course, I am not taking any tech rolls into account here. That throws the whole game balance argument out the window.

I've only used all preplace bids. Only a couple times. I've agreed with most every one of your posts on these boards, so I will definately go the half & half route next time around.

The group I game with still hasn't taken the training wheels off yet and we've been intentionally holding off trying tech. and N.A.'s for now until we finalize our opinion of the base game. I've seen so much variation on the tech.'s and N.A.'s that, to be honest, I'm not so sure we will get around to giving them a try for a while. There seems to be a great deal of mixed opinions on this.

[cousin_joe]

I second that motion. If AH wishes to maintain AAR as a simple strategy game aimed at the teen market (fully understandable) then I would encourage them to produce a second, more complex version for those of us that grew up playing axis & allies, want to continue, but desire something more challenging.
I agree here Lobo. AH rules are fine for the kiddies. As far as a 2nd edition for us veteran players looking for a more challenging game, I'm fairly skeptical about something like that coming along. I think our best hope would be pushing the FIDA guys (who designed LHTR) to give us a more strategic, less lucky version of A&A:R.

[Kaufschtick]

Which version of Enhanced did you play? Replacing Atlantic Wall with Battle of the Bulge should push things back a bit towarsd the Allies favour.
We used v1.2. I had a hard time talking them into playing the third game with the box rules, as they wanted to play another game with Enhanced! We all liked the A&A: Enhanced v1.2 alot! There was action all over the place. :D You know how the first couple of games of any new game you're playing go down as kind of familiarization games, well that's where we're at with Enhanced. Initial impression: outstanding. The most liked rule so far is the Convoy raid deal. We actually had subs purchased! I know, it shocked me too. :D We actually had people scrambling for their rule books to find out about these long forgotten pieces! It had been so long since anyone had ever seen one purchased, that we were cutting off people from the beer when they bought a sub, figuring that they were way drunk. Funny thing with Enhanced though, THEY ACTUALLY HAVE A GAME VALUE! Whahoo! I've been using them as tooth picks until Enhanced!


So to all those Allied players out there, to beat this strategy, just stuff Karelia and make sure you keep your economic advantage. That's pretty much you're only option under out of the box rules.:rolleyes:

Well, I knew it was too good to last very long. That's the deal then with this type of strategy? I already had the feeling that it was going to lead to what my friends and I call L.S.D. games(Long Slow Death). Which are just no fun...

[cousin_joe]

We used v1.2. I had a hard time talking them into playing the third game with the box rules, as they wanted to play another game with Enhanced! We all liked the A&A: Enhanced v1.2 alot! There was action all over the place. You know how the first couple of games of any new game you're playing go down as kind of familiarization games, well that's where we're at with Enhanced. Initial impression: outstanding. The most liked rule so far is the Convoy raid deal. We actually had subs purchased! I know, it shocked me too. We actually had people scrambling for their rule books to find out about these long forgotten pieces! It had been so long since anyone had ever seen one purchased, that we were cutting off people from the beer when they bought a sub, figuring that they were way drunk. Funny thing with Enhanced though, THEY ACTUALLY HAVE A GAME VALUE! Whahoo! I've been using them as tooth picks until Enhanced!I'd have to say of all the rule changes in A&A: Enhanced, Convoy Raids is my favourite as well. There's nothing more satisfying than telling the UK player to put 8IPCs back in the bank at the end of his turn :D Sorta like rolling a 6 on SBR, every time :D


Well, I knew it was too good to last very long. That's the deal then with this type of strategy? I already had the feeling that it was going to lead to what my friends and I call L.S.D. games(Long Slow Death). Which are just no fun...Never heard the L.S.D. abbreviation before, but yes, very true :D I actually envy you right now Kaufschtick as I'm sure Enhanced would be very fun to play with 4-5 players. My college buddies and I used to play a lot but we've all sort of drifted apart so now I only play the occasional 2-player FTF game. I can picture it now...

Russia: When are you guys going to get D-Day started?
Germany: Make sure to keep the US occupied in the Pacific!
UK: I need some help in the Atlantic here...

Note: none of these theaters are very common in the 2 theatre AH game :rolleyes: Anyways, glad you had fun, as that's what A&A should be.

[Kaufschtick]

Cousin_Joe, they ought to put you on the payroll....

If you ever get down to the lower 48 some day, stop by good ole' Columbus, OH. We'll get the gang together, tip a few suds and fire up a game of A&A:Enhanced! :)

Just curious, who would you want to play as? Sometimes, we just take a national marker from each country and draw em' out at random...any preferences yourself?

[cousin_joe]

Cousin_Joe, they ought to put you on the payroll....

If you ever get down to the lower 48 some day, stop by good ole' Columbus, OH. We'll get the gang together, tip a few suds and fire up a game of A&A:Enhanced!

Just curious, who would you want to play as? Sometimes, we just take a national marker from each country and draw em' out at random...any preferences yourself?
Sounds like it's be fun Kaufschtick :) Man, that area seems like a hotbed for A&A, especially with Indy just next door.

With AH rules, I actually find all the countries boring to play, as their roles are so defined. In Enhanced though, Germany all the way, man! So many options, personally, I like sticking it to the Allies in the Atlantic. :) Japan's pretty fun too though.

In my college days with 2nd edition, we'd also pick at random, but using the 5 set-up cards that came with the game. I ended up with Japan a lot because there was the slightest mark on the back of their set-up card, and if I saw it, I grabbed it! :) I know, a bit underhanded, but back then, all was fair when trying to avoid playing Russia. :)

[Clausewitz]

In my thread The Flashman Stratagem (qv) I described a similar "buy infantry only" policy, but with the modification that Germany should buy a fighter or 2 every turn as well. This allows for solid defences but, in addition, a large air strike force can hit the enemy in 1 vital territory each turn to sink expensive shipping, smash an invasion force on the beaches or blow a hole in the Russian wall for the Japanese tanks/pokemon beads.
Preserve your armour, take empty African spaces, avoid the Baltic carrier folly and of course DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY ON ARTILLERY. This should make it very tough for the Allies to establish a beachhead in Europe.

[Kaufschtick]

In my thread The Flashman Stratagem (qv) I described a similar "buy infantry only" policy, but with the modification that Germany should buy a fighter or 2 every turn as well. This allows for solid defences but, in addition, a large air strike force can hit the enemy in 1 vital territory each turn to sink expensive shipping, smash an invasion force on the beaches or blow a hole in the Russian wall for the Japanese tanks/pokemon beads.
Preserve your armour, take empty African spaces, avoid the Baltic carrier folly and of course DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY ON ARTILLERY. This should make it very tough for the Allies to establish a beachhead in Europe.

Clause, this definately sounds like solid strategy to me. Wise words I will bear in mind. Thanks!:D I may give this buy strategy a crack next time out on the box rules. Trouble is, some of those I game with have gotten the A&A:Enhanced "itch", and it may be tough getting too many more games of "box rules" in in the near future...

[Vollick1979]

In my thread The Flashman Stratagem (qv) I described a similar "buy infantry only" policy, but with the modification that Germany should buy a fighter or 2 every turn as well. This allows for solid defences but, in addition, a large air strike force can hit the enemy in 1 vital territory each turn to sink expensive shipping, smash an invasion force on the beaches or blow a hole in the Russian wall for the Japanese tanks/pokemon beads.
Preserve your armour, take empty African spaces, avoid the Baltic carrier folly and of course DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY ON ARTILLERY. This should make it very tough for the Allies to establish a beachhead in Europe.

Yeah everything he says but i wouldn't spned money on fighters if you still have 5 of them. AND most importantly buy that carrier for the Baltic it'll preserve the fleet you have and when you move it out to SZ 3 you'll prevent UK and US from dropping off units in Karelia (and most likely norway)