Third Reich Question Help!

[series]

If you could buy:

John Prados' Third Reich, Great Pacific War, and get the Players Guide including new units, would you buy all that for $110? Is it worth it? Is it a good fun game? I need help in the purchasing decision.

Update

Or would

Invasion of Italy
MacArthur's Return
Red Parachutes
Blood on the Snow
Operation Cannibal
Red Steel
Winter Fury

for 100$ be a better value? I am starting to think so...

[sking500]

Sounds like a fairly good deal at $110, since separately they total around $150 (depending on condition). I'm a huge fan of the 3R series, and prefer the original, but have been happy with the subsequent releases as well. My only advice is to gauge the cost vs. the likelihood of finding opponents. I know several members here play, but you'll probably have a tough time finding some locals to play with in-person - great game, just not very popluar due to complexity.

Good luck!

[series]

Sounds like a fairly good deal at $110, since separately they total around $150 (depending on condition). I'm a huge fan of the 3R series, and prefer the original, but have been happy with the subsequent releases as well. My only advice is to gauge the cost vs. the likelihood of finding opponents. I know several members here play, but you'll probably have a tough time finding some locals to play with in-person - great game, just not very popluar due to complexity.

Good luck!

I know there are different third reich versions, is John Prados a good one?

I'm leaning towards the other 7 below, because the tactical battles (especially invasion of italy) sound pretty cool. And also, I've heard complaints about the third reich board...

[sking500]

All of them were done by John Prados...it's just the latest version by Avalanche Press that includes his name as part of the title. Since I'm more into the strategic aspects of war, preferably with some tactical components, the 3R series has always had great appeal to me.

Don't know about the board...haven't had a ton of opportunity to wear it out, so it's holding up well so far. I have all three versions (original, Advanced, and Avalanche Press version) of 3R, and haven't bought Great Pacific War yet, but am planning on it.

Again, I don't think you'd be dissatisfied with whichever product(s) you decide to buy. My challenge has been finding opponents for 3R since
1. it has a fairly small following, and
2. it takes several hours (sometimes days) to play a single game, and
3. I do not like PBM/PBEM for tabletop games.

[series]

The problem I've heard with the board is the pieces get overcrowded...

How do you get new units in that game? Like, in A&A there are IPC. Anything like that in Third Reich?

[sking500]

All versions use the concept of a BRP (Basic Resource Point), roughly equivalent to an IPC in A&A, but you start off with more of them. Each unit costs a fixed number of BRPs per point of it's printed attack factor (Inf = 1/per, Arm = 2/per, Airborne and Air = 3/per). Unit attack factors range from 1 to 5 depending upon nationality/type.

The turn system is based upon season and year (i.e. Spring turns to Summer turns to Fall turns to Winter turns to Spring the following year). The side with the most BRPs goes first in the season. This can result in turn order flip-flops depending upon how much a nationality spends in builds. At the beginning of each year, BRPs are calculated based upon a percentage of leftovers from the prior year, conquests, and special events (ex. capture of Leningrad by Axis costs Soviet player 15 BRPS, and gives a 15 BRP bonus to Axis). At the end of each season/phase, up to 1/2 total BRPs can be spent to purchase units. Units are immediately placed on the board.

Combat is very different than A&A. In the original, each country could opt for a different action per "front" (eastern, western, and med). The actions were Attrition (total up attack factor of units adjacent to enemies, roll a die, and consult a table to determine how many enemy units that were lost on that "front), Offensive (unit on unit), or Pass. For offensives, units attack enemies in adjacent hexes, establishing a ratio based upon attacing vs. defending factor. It costs BRPs to declare an Offensive options per "front", where Attrition options are free. Allied nations must either declare the same option per front, or pass. Advanced 3R worked pretty much the same, but Avalanche's version replaced the "front" concept with HQ units (each HQ can declare it's own option). During Offensives, Armor units not used in combat, but adjacent to combat can "exploit" through the break in the lines, and can cut off enemy units from supply. In the original out-of-supply units are returned to be rebuilt on a later turn, but in the Avalanche version they're lost for good! Air units can only be committed to an Offensive operation in support of ground attacks, to attack enemy air/naval units, or to intercept enemy air units commited to defensive air support. Defending air units can be used regardless of the option selected.

Naval units are handled completely different than A&A, and are very different between the original 3R, and the Avalanche version. Instead of "moving" from space to space, they're based at a port and are designated for missions. When a mission is performed, the owner indicates a movement path. Enemy naval units can then attempt to intercept the attacking units. If interception is successful, the interceptor has the option to initiate, or break off combat. The Avalanche version differs in that naval units can control sea zones, in addition to being based in ports.

If you purchase/play it, don't bring too much baggage from A&A, as it is very different from 3R in many respects (I won't get into SBR's, but suffice it to say there is a big difference).

Admittedly, the board can get a bit overcrowded, especially along the Eastern front. The Avalanche board uses 1/2 inch hexes with 1/2 inch counters, so it gets a little more busy than the older versions (3/4 inch hexes with 1/2 inch counters). However, if you play enough, you'll become adept at handling the crowding.

[series]

Hmmm... the game sounds pretty cool...

so what about playtime? I heard of different scenarios, how do they work?

[sking500]

They are broken down into three two-year scenarios (39-41, 41-43, 43-45), with a couple of specialty scenarios (like Barbarossa). The 39-41 scenario involves only the French, Brits, Germans, and Italians. The 41-43 scenario involves the Brits, US (after 41), Russians, Germans, and Italians. The 43-45 scenario involves only the Russians, Brits, US and Germans. Of course, there's the grandaddy Campaign scenario covering the entire war. Victory is determined by count of victory cities, but follows a victory scale (i.e. "major" victory, "minor" victory, stalemate). The shorter scenarios can be completed fairly quickly, usually within an evening. I've heard of the Campaign lasting a few days, although I've usually been able to finish it in a day...depends on your opponent(s).

Neutrals may be attacked (it's recommended for the Germans to take all their historical conquests), have their own units, and are controlled by the geographically nearest major enemy of their attacker. The Axis also get Rumania, Hungary, Bulgaria, and Finland as minor allies in 41, control their units, and can purchase their units for replacements. The Axis minors' BRP production are counted as conquests once they join the Axis.

There's also a political system to allow major powers to influence minor countries to sway them toward their cause, and potentially join their alliance. It was OK in the original, but the Avalanche version has much better rules in this area. Also the Avalanche map is considerably more subdivided along political boundaries than the original. There are restrictions on how large various countries' economies can grow in the Avalanche version that wasn't in the original.

If you can find a copy, and have a Win95 or Win98 machine, there was a DOS-based version of the original on PC. It's kind of klunky, but will give you a good feel of how the original game plays. The AI sucks, but the rules are covered well. I'll bet there are some members of this forum that'll offload their copy to you cheaply. You may be able to even find a copy to download, since the CD was never copy protected, but it would be wrong of me to recommend using pirated software (cough, cough). It won't run in NT/2000, and has problems with XP, so I strongly recommend the Win95/98 system, if possible.

[Doctor Strategy]

Series,

I had the first Third Reich many years ago. I gave it to a friend because trying to decipher the rules gave me a headache. The rules were a logistics nightmare. Seriously, it is highly detailed and complex. It is a way different game than A&A.

[series]

Series,

I had the first Third Reich many years ago. I gave it to a friend because trying to decipher the rules gave me a headache. The rules were a logistics nightmare. Seriously, it is highly detailed and complex. It is a way different game than A&A.
Yes, I am definitely going with the other 7 games above, they seem simpler. I could probably handle 3rd reich, but i KNOW none of my friends would be able to.

[Lobo]

Probably a wise decision Series. And unless you've already played those other games you listed, I would only get one or two of them to start with (unless this is a one time offer) and see how you like them.

Even though they are simpler than 3R, they are still very different than A&A.

[series]

Probably a wise decision Series. And unless you've already played those other games you listed, I would only get one or two of them to start with (unless this is a one time offer) and see how you like them.

Even though they are simpler than 3R, they are still very different than A&A.
No, it's a one time offer. The way I figure, I could sell them off on e-bay if I don't like it. However, I have played the Panzer Grenadier series and I love that, and it seems like it has a bit in common with these games, only on a different scale.