Soviet-Japanese non-aggression pact

[Clausewitz]

For those people wanting a more historical scenario, or simply tired of the JTDTM, I think the best and simplest solution is to enforce the following extended S/J NAP.

1. USSR may not attack Japanese territories until an Axis capital has fallen to the Allies
2. Japan may not attack Russian territory until an Allied capital has fallen to the Axis

Not only is this a more realistic representation of the actual position of the two powers involved (Stalin would never have involved Russia in an Asian war until Hitler was defeated, Japan made a conscious decision to "Go South" and avoided joining Hitler in an anti-Soviet war), but it inevitably leads to a more involved pacific war.

The big question gamewise is:

Does Germany have a chance of reaching Moscow without a sustained Japanese attack in the east?

Or, will a Japanese attack in the Pacific draw away enough US/UK forces away from Europe to give Germany a fighting chance against USSR?

What are peoples experiences with such a treaty in force?

[pagan]

best and simple solution I have seen is used in AARe (enhanced)

1. soviet/japanese non-aggression pact
2. VCs in the pacific: honolulu, sydney
3. NAs supporting naval/pacific island action for both US & Japan

Now I am new to AARe, but so far it seems less likely for me to go JTDTM. I will be trying it, however with the ability to win in the ocean + a US force coming across the pacific + any single IC in india or australia ; defensive pacific allowing a full fledged attack across asia by japan seem grim. Japan just doesn't have that kind of money. Japan's easier focus appears to be a pacific war with minor skirmishes into southern asia.

Claus, if you'd like to give the game a try AARe via MapView, I would be willing to play. I'd even let you be Axis so you can go with the rush-2-moscow. But I warn you right now, that your fate looks bleak...

[SCIPIO]

The big question gamewise is:

Does Germany have a chance of reaching Moscow without a sustained Japanese attack in the east?


That's really the big question! I didn't have used the Non-Agression Pact, yet. Someone who did should tell us how it works...

If the Allies go full KGF and Japan cannot make some pression on Russia, it will be hard for Germany, BUT on the other hand, if Japan doesn't have to fear Russian aggression in north-east Asia, then it could concentrate on India and Middle East/Africa, to join with the Germans somewhere.

[DocD]

That's really the big question! I didn't have used the Non-Agression Pact, yet. Someone who did should tell us how it works...

If the Allies go full KGF and Japan cannot make some pression on Russia, it will be hard for Germany, BUT on the other hand, if Japan doesn't have to fear Russian aggression in north-east Asia, then it could concentrate on India and Middle East/Africa, to join with the Germans somewhere.
Absolutely scipio. It is really hard for the Allies to do a strict KGF in AARe. By the time they reach Berlin, the game would have ended because Japan would have swallowed the Pacific VCs whole and Germany would have at least one of the Russian VCs to boot.

Non-aggression gives the Soviets 4 inf in a space the Japanese invade. This does several things. It makes the Soviets think twice about invading Japanese territory (or at least it should). Those 4 inf represent 12ipcs that the Russians are going to find hard pressed to replace on some ill-advised attack on Japan.
Also, the 4 inf means the Japanese have to be fairly well armed to attack Russia if it really wants to take territory.
What I'm seeing is Japan going after India and Australia, or Hawaii if the US has left it open.
Only after two of these VCs have been taken do Japan invade russia in the Mid-late and late stages of the war.

It works very good if one is trying to get away from that ole JTDTM.

[Lt M Cotten]

For those people wanting a more historical scenario, or simply tired of the JTDTM, I think the best and simplest solution is to enforce the following extended S/J NAP.

1. USSR may not attack Japanese territories until an Axis capital has fallen to the Allies
2. Japan may not attack Russian territory until an Allied capital has fallen to the Axis

Not only is this a more realistic representation of the actual position of the two powers involved (Stalin would never have involved Russia in an Asian war until Hitler was defeated, Japan made a conscious decision to "Go South" and avoided joining Hitler in an anti-Soviet war), but it inevitably leads to a more involved pacific war.

I like the way you have thought this out and balanced it. Good idea. :)


The big question gamewise is:

Does Germany have a chance of reaching Moscow without a sustained Japanese attack in the east?

Yes, I believe that they still do.



Or, will a Japanese attack in the Pacific draw away enough US/UK forces away from Europe to give Germany a fighting chance against USSR?

Oh I would say yes, as the British & Americans will have to further defend Asia and the Pacific Islands....

[Doctor Strategy]

Clausewitz,

A lot of us "historians" will agree with your rule. It is very realistic. The rule may be too absolute to get a consensus of A+A players. They will say that the rule would "force" them to play a doomed historical route or something similar. Hence the weak non-agression pacts we have now are an attempt at compromise.

[Clausewitz]

I should have mentioned that this proposal is for a completely new rule separate from the NA included in the game.
It's fairly obvious that it disadvantages the Axis, as USSR rarely attacks Japan anyway, but I suggested it as an alternate scenario rather than a balancing mechanism. Some people may like the added challenge of playing the Axis under these rules, and there's always bidding and the RR for balance fans.
You may also note that I tend to think in terms of my own maps, which place Moscow closer to Germany and therefore this may not be so tough on the Axis.

[Beast1313131]

good thinking. I like this, adds realism and a new factor to the game.

[IBKsax44]

If there isn't any conflict between Japan and Russia the war actually becomes way too slanted in favor of the allies. America with 42 IPCs against Japan with 30 IPCs in the Pacific is a no contest. The most even it'd get would be if Japan takes all of China and India for 37 IPCs total, leaving America with 38 IPCs. And even then, how does Japan mount a successful invasion of Western USA? I suppose it'd be kinda interesting if Japan pushed west instead and landed in Africa while just holding America at bay...

[DocD]

If there isn't any conflict between Japan and Russia the war actually becomes way too slanted in favor of the allies. America with 42 IPCs against Japan with 30 IPCs in the Pacific is a no contest. The most even it'd get would be if Japan takes all of China and India for 37 IPCs total, leaving America with 38 IPCs. And even then, how does Japan mount a successful invasion of Western USA? I suppose it'd be kinda interesting if Japan pushed west instead and landed in Africa while just holding America at bay...
It depends on what ruleset you are playing with IBK. If you are playing the out of the box AAR rules, you are very correct. Japan shouldn't waste that much money fighting a contest with the US. They would be much better off going after Russia.

If you are playing AARe, then Japan is much better off going after the Hawaii and Australia VCs. This really forces the US and UK to fight a two theater war and spread out those IPCs.

[luke swensen]

we like to hit Austrail after India and Chine are done, then hit America from the top and bottom in the Pacific. You don't need to always hold them, but there needs to presser on them so that Germany has a chance to get ahead. Germany than does over half the work for Japan at this time.

[TomJag3]

It's fairly obvious that it disadvantages the Axis, as USSR rarely attacks Japan anyway, but I suggested it as an alternate scenario rather than a balancing mechanism.

Sorry, I'm a sucker for moving Russian troops against Japan. I've even done it in my enhanced game vs. Pagan. While it put me at war against Japan, it got Russia termporarily up to 37 IPC's and forced Japan to spread itself thinner.