Ummm... Original?

[RuHurt]

So is all the discussion here about Revised, or is someone who doesn't yet own Revised, and only has Original, allowed in...? Someone like me, for example? :D ;)

[DXfoxman]

Anything about A&A is welcome here. Including the original.

[axis_roll]

I think the fact that revised has sparked renewed interest/strategies/variants versus the 20 year old MB rules....

Plus I know there's plenty, Plenty, PLENTY been written about 2nd (and 3rd a.k.a. CD-Rom) game strategies.

If you search for those, you can read for days....

[RuHurt]

Sure, but if I just read what's already been posted, I wouldn't up my post count, would I? ;) :D

Seriously, I'll check some of it out. It's just that I'm only now starting to get into Original, and I'd like to talk strategy :D. I'll return tomorrow, it's getting late :D.

[TomJag3]

Any time you want to talk strategy with the original, I'm game. I've got an 'Original' FTF tournament coming up on Saturday. Sure, I'll give the Axis 26 points.

[axis_roll]

Any time you want to talk strategy with the original, I'm game. I've got an 'Original' FTF tournament coming up on Saturday. Sure, I'll give the Axis 26 points.
Gads!

Is this second edition (single Hit BB, no sub submerge, etc rules from 3rd edition)??

You'd almost have to PE someone with 7 inf and a tank!

[RuHurt]

Ok, let's talk strategy. One thing needs to be clear first; I've never done bidding (of course, I almost never play with anyone else, so maybe if I did I'd change my mind). It seems to me that it's fairly balanced anyway, without bidding. But then, that could just be my excuse for not knowing how bidding works... ;)

Since I only recently started playing, I mostly just follow the guidelines set by Don's essays, but in doing so, I seem to have noticed a little problem; he never puts forth a way for Germany to stop America's advance. He seems to think there is no way for Germany to survive, without great luck. Is that just my impression, or do others think the same as I?

[Lt M Cotten]

So is all the discussion here about Revised, or is someone who doesn't yet own Revised, and only has Original, allowed in...? Someone like me, for example? :D ;)

I have not gotten Revised as of yet :eek: . I am hoping that Santa will bring it to me... :D

So if you rarely face another opponent do you play more often than that? Have you looked into the PC A&A:Iron Blitz version?

[ButchOHare1]

he never puts forth a way for Germany to stop America's advance. He seems to think there is no way for Germany to survive, without great luck. Is that just my impression, or do others think the same as I?

Don's essays are a great place to start learning the basics of Axis and Allies, and you should really study them. However, Don focuses on playing 2d edition with russia restricted and no bid. In those circumstances Germany is under immediate pressure. If you don't follow Don's recommendation for UK to buy an IC for India and instead by a fleet for the North Sea, Germany's situation is even worse.

In the PBEM and online clubs the game imbalance has been recognized and a bid instituted giving the Axis extra units and or IPCs at the start of the game. In a 2d edition game with russia restricted the bid would fall between 11 and 6. Without russia restricted the bid falls to 24-20 (or 26 if you are a bit touched in the head) :) jk Tom!

[RuHurt]

I just play myself. It's a good way to perfect the strategies, since I always know what I'm going to do, but it gets a little old after a while... ;)

No; I have a Mac, in the first place, and I don't have time for another computer game, in the second :D.

[ButchOHare1]

A little help for Germany defense in Europe for you...

There are 4 stages of German defense in Europe. Although you will be buying exclusively infantry, it is the mobility of the tank that is the key to Germany's early survival.

Stage 1. (a)All your tanks stacked in Western Europe along with as few infantry as are necessary to discourage UK and USA attacking you there (b) all other available infantry stacked in Germany, and a few in Southern Europe so any allies tanks in Karelia can't blitz Southern Europe. (c) 1 man in Eastern Europe.

This creates a strong threat to hit Eastern Europe with the tanks from Western Europe and the infantry in Southern Europe and Germany all in range to attack Eastern Europe. Don Rae calls Eastern Europe a "Dead Zone" under this set up. Germany's income is 34 or so and Russia's is also 30, but trading losses for Germany are low with only 1 territory to trade.

Stage 2. (a) All tanks stacked in Eastern Europe along with enough infantry to discourage a triple team Allies attack there (b) lots of infantry in Germany (c) 1 man in Western Europe (move out your aa gun).

This creates a strong threat for Germany to hit Western Europe with the tanks from Eastern Europe and the infantry in Southern Europe and Germany all in range to attack Western Europe. Now Don would say Western Europe is a "Dead Zone" under this set up. Germany's income is 37-40 depending on how Africa is going and Russia's income is reduced, but trading losses for Germany are a bit higher with a 2 front ground war (you need to trade Western Europe and Ukraine). Usually Germany can handle this early in the game with its air superiority over the allies. This is overall a stronger position for Germany as giving higher income to UK and USA is usually preferable to giving higher income to USSR early in the game. Also some pressure on Karelia is necessary to prevent USSR tanks from roaming all over Asia.

Stage 3. Same as 2 except (c) Western Europe stacked with enough units to discourage attack there. You will roll back a couple tanks and move 12 infantry or so into Western Europe, while leaving a large safe stack in Eastern Europe.

You are doing well if you are able to reach stage 3 (holding both Western Europe and Eastern Europe with stacks and not using threat defense of dead zones for either one) by the 3rd round. A key to establishing stage 3 defense is the Japanese airforce. If you land your Japanese fighters in FIC round 1 then Egypt round 2 you can land them in Eastern or Western Europe round 3 to cover whichever stack looks weaker.

Stage 4. Stacks of inf in Eastern and Western Europe large enough to discourage attack in either with tanks and placement (usually all inf - you will continue buying mostly inf even at stage 4 defense waiting for Japan to win the game most of the time) in Germany.

Now Spain is a dead zone also, an absolute key for Axis, and Germany's income is high, with low trading costs. You can start picking up some tanks.

There are other defensive moves you need to know too, like when to move all your tanks from Germany and infantry from Eastern Europe into Ukraine (called sometimes the German turtle move or "Death March"), so the Allies can't passthrough Caucaus en masse to Persia (called the "Persian Push").

Whenever you have a chance to advance to the next stage you should take it. There are games where you can win while never stacking Western Europe, staying in stage 2 defense the whole game. However, if you have the chance to lock Western Europe down I think you almost always should as that extra cash to UK or USA will eventually mean extra men/tanks/planes knocking on Germany's door.

Last point I will make is that if you are using weak side threat defense (or dead zones as Don calls them) against an inexperienced player he will often walk into the dead zone with all he's got, and you will have to kill him. If that happens you will need to go back from stage 2 to stage 1 and then back up from 1 to 2 the next turn, using the mobility of your tanks and slamming into the Allies with "stack attacks." Although you have slid back a stage in defense, you will have won a huge IPC exchange without exposure to counterattack.

Dice being cruel instruments of torture you will lose a lot of sure things. Or else just roll tech and hope for IT.

[Panther]

Don's essays are a great place to start learning the basics of Axis and Allies, and you should really study them. However, Don focuses on playing 2d edition with russia restricted and no bid. In those circumstances Germany is under immediate pressure. If you don't follow Don's recommendation for UK to buy an IC for India and instead by a fleet for the North Sea, Germany's situation is even worse.



Totally agree here. Don´s essays are good for beginners but dont take his strats for perfect. Indeed the UK IC in Ind only works without a bid, when Allies have a big advantage anyway.

26 is a hard bid to play against, but not impossible. 23 seems to be the most common bid with 2nd nowadays.

[RuHurt]

Thanks for the advice, Butch :).

How about Japan? I can take care of eastern Russia no problem, but the Indian SC causes some serious problems. How do y'all suggest I take care of that, so I can turn on Western U.S.?

[TomJag3]

AxisRoll, I believe the tournament is straight 2nd edition rules, nothing from the CD game. However, since I haven't talked to the guy running the tournament, nothing is certain.

And yes, I did win a round in the Masters at GenCon this past year giving 26 IPC's to the Axis. Of course, I got beat giving the Axis 23 IPC's in the championship game. Since I didn't train for the 2nd edition tournament, I forgot the correct response to his build and as a result got wiped.

I'm a far better Allied player than I am an Axis, and Russia is my baby. If the bid goes below 23, the Allies have an easy time of it and Russia can buy 3 armor and 5 infantry and play aggressively. If it's 23 or higher, you're better off with the traditional 8 infantry. If the Axis get a bid of 23, that's adding 6 infantry and 1 armor. All goes to Germany, none to Africa. The game will be done in 4 turns, with a clear winner known at that point. 6 infantry go to Ukraine and the armor goes to Eastern Europe. Russia can hit Finland, but it will leave them weak.

Russia buys 8 infantry. The sub,transport, and 1 fighter can go after the sub in the mid-atlantic. 1 fighter, 3 armor, and 3 armor take Finland. In non-com, land the fighters in Karelia, move 4 inf from Caucasus to Karilya, move the infantry from Russia to Karelia, 2 Inf from Evenki to Russia, the armor from Soviet Far East to Evenki, and the Infantry from Far East joins the other 3 infantry. The builds go in Karelia. This forces Germany to make decisions. I like to have my opponent making lots of decisions because the more decisions he makes, the more chances for him to make a mistake.

Germany has to decide its strategy. Does it try to hold on till Japan rides to the rescue or should it try to get to Moscow first? Germany can take out Karelia or the British fleet, but can't do both. The sub and the BB can take out the GB BB at Gibraltar, with an amphibious landing at Gibraltar with 1 inf. This prevents GB fighters from picking on the Italian BB. Build 5 tanks, 2 inf and plan on eliminating Karelia on turn 2. Use a fighter on the East Canada transport and the bomber and 4 fighters on the Brit fleet. In Noncom, leave 1 inf in Ukr, move every land unit that can get there, to East Europe. Land the air in France, all builds in Germany.

UK buys a carrier and transport. Save $4. Evacuate India, transporting to Egypt. Fly the fighters to karelia. The bomber can make it to Moscow, SB along the way, if that floats your boat.

Japan builds 2 transports and 3 infantry. US fleet gets sunk at Pearl, China falls, walk into India and Soviet Far East. Transport the infantry from Phillipines to Manchuria.

US buys 4 transports for the East Coast and a couple of infantry(or buys 2 fighters and saves 18 for turn 2). Transport off California moves 1 sea zone towards Panama Canal, BB moves 2. East Coast transport sails to England, unloading 2 inf in Finland. US planes land on GB carrier. Bomber goes to Russia. Infantry in Sinkian retreat toward Russia.

At this point, life becomes interesting. Russia could have 24Inf,4Arm, and 4 fighters sitting in Karelia. Germany would have 18Inf,14Arm,4Ftr, and 1 Bmb to hit it with. The first turn would see each side losing 12 infantry. The second round would see the Russians down to 2Arm,4Ftrs and the Germans down to 12 armor, 3 ftrs, and 1 bmb. After the third round, Germany would have 9 armor, 3 ftrs, and a bomber, and the possession of Karelia.

The tough part is finding an Axis opponent with the patience to sit with Germany for 1 turn. I finally found one in the championsip game of the Masters at GenCon. I guess this is the puzzle for the Allies to solve.

Don't forget, Africa is a sideshow. The whole continent is only worth 9 IPC's and you have to move through a lot of territory to get it. The war is won in Asia, that's where the concentration of IPC's is.

Anyway, this illustrates a typical first turn for A&A, with bidding.

[TomJag3]

RuHurt,

In a lot of games, India will be empty of troops when it gets to Japan's turn. The troops will either be used to counterattack in Egypt or for the Kwangtung maneuver (take the transport and infantry to Kwangtung and invade using the plane to support the attack. The plane lands in China.) The Kwangtung maneuver should only be used if the Russians attack Manchuria. The Russians can do this by using all the infantry from both eastern territories, the armor in the Far East, and the Fighter in Moscow. In the counterattack on Egypt, the UK can bring the bomber, fighter and 2 infantry from Inda, and the Trans-Jordan infantry for the attack. This can de-rail Germany's timetable for taking Africa.

As an Ally, killing Japanese infantry on the mainland of Asia is priceless. If Manchuria and Kwangtung fall, Japan is in a world of hurt. With the options available to UK from India, sitting there is a waste of precious time and resources.

[AllWeNeedIsLove.]

Anyway, this illustrates a typical first turn for A&A, with bidding.

very well played and detailed, tom. this also illustrates why there is no talk of original, and even more so, why a revision was necessary

[Panther]

Dont agree here. There is talk about the original game. Just look on the MBs of the A&A clubs (IAAPA, AAMC, DAAK). The PE bid mentioned here is only one possibilty. Many players put some ore many of the additional units in Afrika or some in Asia (esp. man or kwa). But even if you put them all into Europe you can use other strats as the one TomJag described (f.i. the cau gambit or the invasion of turkey).

BTW: TomJag, I have some questions/annotations:
Russia can buy 3 armor and 5 infantry

This should not be possible with 24 IPC.
You can buy 3inf 3arm, but I would not recommend it, unless bid is < 2 units in Europe.

The sub,transport, and 1 fighter can go after the sub in the mid-atlantic

Do you mean the german fleet in the baltic?

[DY]

I am so tempted to burn my set of AA 2nd edition. The more I play AAR (LHTR 9 VC), the more I come to realise that it is pretty unbalanced, but it is still not even close to the ridiculousness of original rules.

In a non-bidding AA 2nd ed game, my strategy involves rolling a dice a turn from around G3 and J3 for the Axis, because I figure IT or HB are your best chance for victory.

Restricted USSR makes the game a little fairer, but still, it's a bit of a joke. I mean, come on, an average bid of 23 (with all of that placed immediately on the board pre USSR1)!!!

[ButchOHare1]

The 2nd edition game is fine with a bid. I think a PE bid is like playing Yatzee, but that is fun too.

You can argue that the out of the box tech rules are more balanced in second edition. Directed tech with HBs rolling 2 dice seems to be a game breaker, or at least seems to force an Axis rush strat.

[luke swensen]

do you take your planes out to sea to attack the british fleet? I usely send a plane and bomber out to wipe the trans. near canada. As Japan, India is mine on the first turn. No matter if the load it or not. Japan needs the IPCS to much not to take it.

[RuHurt]

Since I never attack Russia on the first turn, I use all my aircraft against the fleets, just to make sure I can eliminate them :D.

As for Japan, I tend to try to push through Russia as fast, with as much force, as possible. I can handle the Indian IC later, at the start I need to help Germany.

[Beast1313131]

I do the same but i attack Russia on the first german turn however. The Russian player is usually pretty expansive with attacking both Germany and Japan on the first turn of the game!