AARE grudge match: cousin_joe vs. pagan

[cousin_joe]

A long time ago, when AAR first came out, cousin_joe defeated pagan in a boring IPM stackfest using AH rules. Now, pagan is back, and ready to take on cousin_joe at his own ruleset. Who will win?

Sides:
Axis: pagan
Allies: cousin_joe

NA selections:
Rus: Russian Winter
Ger: Afrika Corps, Dive-Bombers
UK: Colonial Garrison, Commonwealth
***: Naval Adv (Jet Power), Tokyo Express
US: Naval Industry

R1:
Standard attacks into Ukr and WRus. Major disaster in Ukr as Russia is turned back with an ARM and 2FTRs, while for Germany 1ARM,1RTL,1FTR survive in Ukr.

G1:
AC + INF purchased
Egypt taken in force, Karelia taken in force

UK1:
UK builds fleet in SZ 3
Builds IC in Australia

J1:
Haw SZ and China attacked in force
IC in Kwa

US1:
US builds Pacific Fleet

R2:
Dead zone exchange on the Eastern Front
Forgot to move Russian SUB to block German Fleet

G2:
Germany takes full advantage of this and attacks the UK fleet:

http://img131.exs.cx/img131/4505/cjvsp19ov.png

G2:
5FTR, 1AC, 2SUB, 1TRN, 1DD vs. 1AC, 2FTR, 1DD, 2TRN, 1BB
-SZ cleared with 2 Ger FTR remaining

A devastating blow for the Allies :eek: ... is it possible to come back from this? ...has Germany all but won? Stay tuned...

[cousin_joe]

UK2:
After the serious death blow to Atlantic plans, UK buys 2TRN for the Atlantic and a SUB and INF for the Pacific.
The Pacific Theater starts to heat up:

http://img58.exs.cx/img58/5669/cjvsp29ba.png

J2:
Japan adds to it's fleet

US2:
US adds to it's fleet and advances to Hawaii

R3:
Russia exchanges dead zones with Germany

G3:
Germany retakes dead zones
Consolidates their hold in Africa

UK3:
Takes Norway
Takes Kwangtung IC from the Japanese!!!

J3:
Retake Kwangtung
Builds an IC in the Phillipines
Consolidates in Japan SZ and Adds a Battleship to it's Navy!!!
-Wow! But you know what... in Enhanced BBs are actually decent buys now :)

US3:
With the Germans out of the Atlantic, start ramping up for D-Day with an AC,FTR,and 2TRN in the Atlantic
With UK running a little interference, US moves up it's Pacific Fleet

[cousin_joe]

R4:
Russia makes a power move and occupies Karelia in force
The Russian Sub atones for it's earlier mistake and becomes a pest in the Med :) No more reinforcements from SEur unless you're willing to buy a DD :D

G4:
Germany does not have enough to attack Karelia, but responds by taking Ukr in force and directly threatening Caucasus:

http://img41.exs.cx/img41/299/cjvsp33mq.png

[cousin_joe]

UK4:
UK places 2 new TRNs off of Australia
Continue to build up for the eventual D-day assault

J4:
Japan consolidates at their IC in the Phillipines and builds a FOURTH Battleship there. OH MY, this is getting intense! :eek:

http://img154.exs.cx/img154/4233/cjvsp44bi.png

[DocD]

Four BB's!!!! Yamamoto has gone MAD!!! :D Tojo should strip him of his command! LoL:D

Seriously, I've never seen that tactic....It will be very hard to eliminate them all but the flip side is has Japan invested to many resources into something so costly. Very interested in how this one plays out.

[pagan]

cousin Joe -- this is the first time we ever played against each other.

that's right boys.. FOUR Battleships!

I took a page directly out of Sun Tzu (yes I did actually READ it before!)
paraphrase: '...given the option, place yourself in an invincible position and attack from there...'

[cousin_joe]

cousin Joe -- this is the first time we ever played against each other.

that's right boys.. FOUR Battleships!

I took a page directly out of Sun Tzu (yes I did actually READ it before!)
paraphrase: '...given the option, place yourself in an invincible position and attack from there...'
We have played before pagan, back in May/04 with original rules, unless it was a different pagan but I'm pretty sure it was you. You had quit in round 5 saying that pressing on would have been of no further use as the Allies had the income advantage and would eventually just outIPM the Axis. It was a short game ,a long time ago, and with AH rules where pretty much all the games are the same, so I can understand if you might have forgotten. :) I have the Mapview file here for your perusal if you wish.

[cousin_joe]

cousin Joe -- this is the first time we ever played against each other.

that's right boys.. FOUR Battleships!

I took a page directly out of Sun Tzu (yes I did actually READ it before!)
paraphrase: '...given the option, place yourself in an invincible position and attack from there...'I've read Sun Tzu too and I plan on doing the same thing as well :) Except I'm doing it with Carriers, and as we all know, it was Carriers that won the Pacific, not those outdated relics you're buying so many of ;) . It still is quite scary nonetheless. :eek:

[pagan]

Be happy I didn't get Powerful Battleships, or else i would have a defending force of EIGHT 5's with the ability to soak up 4 shots.

It is definately something I will remember for the future.

My next japanese adventrue will take me into the wonderful world of subs! I am going to see if japan can do anything witha large sub force...(i do have doubts)

HOW DARE THERE BE someone taking my name, and then quitting in 5 rounds! BAH!

Send me the file of this imposter's game, sir ! And what the hell is his email? I wish a word with this fellow.

[cousin_joe]

US4:
-US takes EIndies
-Operation Torch finally begins, with a joint effort from US and Canada :D

Rus5:
-Rus clears out EEur, though it stays in German hands
-They respond to the Ger advance into Ukr by digging in at both Belorussia and Caucasus

Ger5:
-In a stunning move, the Germans build an IC in Anglo-Egypt Sudan... only in Enhanced :)
-Germans fall back to EEur

http://img157.exs.cx/img157/8427/cvvsp39lj.png

Very exciting game here with many theaters active. Looks like Germany is going to make a stand in Egypt vs. Operation torch. Allies are building up for an eventual D-Day Offensive though Germany's Atlantic Wall is fairly impressive. The Eastern Front is very dynamic. The Japanese Navy looks to be a major threat in the Pacific, though the Japanese Army is facing tough resistance in SE Asia. This one's very fun to play :) . Will keep you updated.

[pagan]

Yes... more stunning moves from pagan....unpredictability and a passion for odd strategy is my trademark!

CJ --> I still want the email address of this other pagan guy you played.

[cousin_joe]

UK5:
-UK retakes FIC
-drops off some INF support from Aus into EIndies
-takes Belarus

J5:
-Strong Power Move in the Pacific with movement of it's fleet to Borneo and the purchase of 3 SUBs. Heavy Naval Investments look like they may soon pay off
-retake of FIC

US5:
-Purchase IC in EIndies
-Take Libya and reinforce Algeria
-Retake China

R6:
-Move to Occupy Karelia in Force

G6:
-Retake Libya and reinforce Egypt
-Trade Dead Zones on the Eastern Front
-Reinforce EEur

UK6:
-Take FIC again
-Preparations for a final stand against the Japanese in the EIndies SZ. Colossal Naval battle potentially coming up...

http://img58.exs.cx/img58/2508/cjvsp46tr.png

[DY]

Will there be a full mapview file available for download upon completion of this game?

[cousin_joe]

Will there be a full mapview file available for download upon completion of this game?

That's pagan's call DY. Personally I don't mind. :)

[Beast1313131]

This is only the second time i have seen any one other than me build an industrial complex in Anglo-Egypt Sudan. I am glad :D

[pagan]

I will post current displays on this one later.

Its quite a build-up of pacific Navy.... US/UK want to press through behind to Kwangtung and the Japan-IC... Japan wants to land lock them or risk losing the US IC

Quick trade-offs....and a german IC in AES + less chance of D-Day means germany gets to actually MOVE towards Russia....

[pagan]

Here is the Eastern Front

large build up of INF for WestEurope
Germany has been pushing south to Africa
Russia has been very lonely

[pagan]

Germany has put alot of effort into Africa and owns every territory in it

Russia has been able to build

Germany wants to keep its IPCs so it places an IC on AES a turn back.

US has quite the Trany-Force....

[pagan]

Asia has been very scarce due to the annoying UK/US strategy to actually build NAVY

Japan has not been able to fund very many troops due to needed Naval presence of a UK/US naval build in pacific.

Japan has a tenuous hold which could go at any moment...

[pagan]

Here is the current state of affairs for the pacific.

Does Japan attack...?

US could recoupe with IC on East Indes
Uk still has Commonwealth

Japan cannot recoupe.

Japan defense is backed by JetPower.
Don't let the fleet move or risk losing the US-IC.
UK/US wants to back-door for Kwangtung IC (***-4-tat)

Now does Japan attack....?

It is currently UK turn. What would you do with that UK fleet? Move it to FIC?

[newaxis]

The board is hard to see (not that there is anything that you can do about it) Here is what I see as the naval forces in the area:

SZ 37
1 UK CV
2 UK FTR
1 UK TR
3 UK Destroyer

1 US BB
1 US TR
2 US DD
4 US FTR
3 US SS

SZ 38
1 UK SS

SZ 36 (FIC)
1 US DD
1 *** Sub

SZ 49
2 *** Sub

SZ 48
2 *** Sub
1 *** TR
2 *** DD
4 *** BB
4 *** FTR
2 *** CV

Additionally, Japan has 2 FTRs on the Phillipines & 1 Bomber on Borneo
Is this accurate? Furthermore, since Pagan is playing Axis, why is he soliciting advice about whether the UK fleet should move?

[newaxis]

This game shows the incredible stupidity of sub-stalling. Australia could be taken out easily, but for a lone sub blocking the way. cousin joe, I applaud the changes you made to submarines, as they are useful now. I would point out however that submarines should not be able to stop convoys. A more realistic rules mechanic for Enhanced 2.1 would keep the Detected/Undetected mechanic but add the following:

Ships may attempt to move through a SZ containing an enemy fleet made up entirely of submarines. If the active player wishes to attempt to move through the enemy subs, then roll detection as normal (if the active player has DD in the fleet attempting to move through the submarines) If the enemy submarines go undetected AND they choose to submerge after the first round of combat, then the active player may move through the SZ containing the subs. (This represents some actual convoy raiding, as opposed to the abstract IPC losses. This also prevents sub-stalling.) If the subs go undetected and don't submerge or if they are detected, then the active player's convoy is stuck in the SZ with the enemy submarines.

I'm sure the above could be said more succintly, but this would preserve the value of submarines without letting them block massive fleets. As it is now, they can already prevent BB support shots, which is fine. Allowing the subs to block fleets is too much. Also, the subs will still get their attacks in to sink ships with impunity if opponents don't have destroyers. This rule change would be a fine edition for Enhanced 2.1. I'm going to post a seperate thread with this post in it, but I thought it worth interjecting here. If you do not wish comments from others in your grudge match threads, I'll get a mod to delete my two posts. Thanks.

[pagan]

I was asking my Uk question 'metaphoricaly' for those people whom think they might do different stuff... Just wrote stuff for reader interest, the whole post is just for other people to watch.

If someone wants to give advice, then go ahead.

Sub 'blocking' is happening by Japan on FIC & US on New Guinea
--first one to fail loses an IC basically


US IC on E.Indes
UK IC on Australia
JP IC on Philippines
JP IC on Kwangtung


---Naval Power_ I have no idea what the power of att/def is here

SZ 37
1 UK AC
2 UK FTR
3 UK DD
1 UK TN


1 US BB
2 US AC
1 US TN
2 US DD
4 US FTR
3 US SS

SZ 38
1 UK SS

SZ 36 (FIC)
1 US DD
1 *** Sub

SZ 49
2 *** Sub


SZ 47
1 US Sub


SZ 48
2 *** Sub
1 *** TR
2 *** DD
4 *** BB
4 *** FTR
2 *** CV

Japan attacking power would be increased by:
3 FTR
1BMR

Japan defense power is increased by Jet Power

UK can't attack without being utterly killed. Their goal will be Kwangtung.

US can't attack (yet). I expect a double shot of US then UK circumnvent.

[pagan]

NAval battle will commence tomorrow.

I like to sit on a decision on this, but I'm 99% sure that Im hitting the UK/US fleet with my Japanese fleet.

UK moved in its Australia SS, other than that its the same as the above map

I will have to Run a DD detection first, and then CJ has to decide what he wants to die before the firing starts. Odds are we both detect each others' subs.

[pagan]

Attack commences

Axis sub Detect 2DDs: rolls 6-5 (so that's a nope)

Allies sub Detect 5DDs: rolls 5-5-1-6-3 (hmm....)

Total of 2 'hits' with SEVEN DDs [perhaps this should have been taken as a bad omen]


Combat commences in the ocean

Round 1 -->

Japan expects 10 (hits for 7)
....most noteable are 7 FTRs for 1 hit !! YAY !!!
...BMR missed too (lol)
...BBs got 2 of 4 hits

Allies expect 10 (hits for 8)
....most notable are 6 FTRs in defense for 2 hits !!
...averages on other shots


Round 2 ---> Japan is UPSET but thankful for defending FTR shots...

-waiting on CJ's deaths-

[cousin_joe]

5SS, 2DD, 2CV, 4BB(f), 7FTR, 1BMBR vs. 4SS, 5DD, 2CV, 1BB
-7 Hits Attacker
-8 Hits Defender

Heyyy!!! You forgot my 2 trannies!! And one of my CV's!!!

OOL = BB, 2TRN, 3SUB, 1CV

[pagan]

I sent an email to clear this up.

2Tns + 1AC were not included in the battle for the allies.

I rolled them; hits = 0

[pagan]

Japan attacks for 1 round and retreats back onto Borneo

[pagan]

Current situation on Northern Asia

[pagan]

Here are the Southern areas

[DocD]

A typical balanced game of AARe. No major advantage for either side.
Slight Axis advantage in Asia, slight Allied advantage in Pacific.

Balance could shift if Japanese build up for tank march to Moscow.

Stinking commie troops garrisoning Allied property as usual....disgusting! :(

[Stephen]

Stinking commie troops garrisoning Allied property as usual....disgusting! :(
Horrible... absolutely horrible!
If anything needs to change in A&A, it's exactly this! Somehow China has to be able to hold down Japan without giving way, and without turning Russia into the Asia defender.

[cousin_joe]

Horrible... absolutely horrible!
If anything needs to change in A&A, it's exactly this! Somehow China has to be able to hold down Japan without giving way, and without turning Russia into the Asia defender.

Without the russian support, there's no way these territories will hold.

You'll notice in this game in particular that I have no factories on the mainland. I garrisoned Australia and then put a late US factory in EIndies.

The free INF NAs and Colonial Garrison were meant to support a strategy of Mainland ICs, without as much Russian support.

Also, Germany's played a conservative Eastern Front, and so Russia has the luxury of supporting these areas. The D-Day changes should help this.

[Stephen]

oopsily-doodily!!!!

[pagan]

Germany played conservative on the east because there were no ICs on asia after first turn, thus allowing germany to go after africa with alot of stuff.

Germany palyed conservative because D-Day was available to the allies from anywhere so stocking W.E. kept that little thing out of possibility. UK north fleet into sz6 on any round + Us fleet on africa into sz7 at any round with aircraft

Had the UK IC been placed on India, then it would be a different matter entirely.

Asia would have been clearly in the hands of the allies. Japan is only barely holding its terrtorys against CW + PD. Add an IC and its all over for Japan with basic averages

Naval powers would stil be stunted for Japan. CW could still garrsion Australia + if japan went for australia what happend to US navy?

Allies have an easier time with CG+CW+PD (and US can go strong pacific OR IC on Sink)

In summary:
Russia would have had to face an additional 4INF on its initial attack on japan
Germany doesn't have to stockpile like i did so eastern front gets more stuff
IC on southern asia with INF-NAs removes japan from asia
US strength in pacific removes japan from asia

CJs changes are really bonuses for an aggressive germany. Hopefully panzerblitz doesn't become the only method for the axis to win.

I'd like to see a slower germany win a game with an Africa increase in IPCs + a decrease in UK IPCs, or at least think it's possible.

I'd like to see a slower geramny win a game with a naval build forcing a decrease in UK IPCs and forcing a build up of US/UK non-trany ships (costs money), but in this equation japan should be able to push on asia with russia forced to defend and not go completly at germany__ the paltry Uk units (probably CW+PD) on india/sink __ japan has to be fast of course

I'd like to see Japan be able to hold its mainland territories.

[pagan]

Germany hasn't done much....

[pagan]

This is an example where Africa turned into a Expense, and with the IC a serious liability.

[pagan]

Something's got to give....but it certainly aint asia !

Let's take a look at Asia north

[pagan]

Lots of minor nothings result in not alot

[pagan]

The pacific fleets have been interesting here....

The allies run before the Naval Might of Japan !!!!!
(what now DocD, you gonna start buying BBs?)

[axis_roll]

This is an example where Africa turned into a Expense, and with the IC a serious liability.
This is why I higly doubt I would ever buy a German IC for AES.... Only if Japan could easily support it, and Japan can not with the US pressure she's facing.

I'd rather plop one in South Africa if I ever wanted to play the long money game with Germany.

[pagan]

yeah... Its a bad idea....

[DocD]

Only if they are Yamamotos Pagan! :)

[newaxis]

<bump> It has been a week.

[cousin_joe]

One quick note, I am playing the remainder of this game with AARe 2.1 D-Day Rules (although pagan did not have the benefits of bilateral nonagression and knowledge of a lost D-Day earlier on - I'll be the first to admit he started with a huge disadvantage because of this)

Anyways, here's the situation on the Eastern Front at the end of UK8 (cousin_joe is Allies). Germany is holding WEur and is depserately trying to defend the IC in Egypt. Operation Torch is in full swing and is about to break through although an attack this turn could be a bit dicey.

http://img218.exs.cx/img218/9342/image24ue.th.png (http://img218.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img218&image=image24ue.png)

Meanwhile, in the Pacific, the Japanese Navy has broken the Allied fleet who are forced to retreat. Those 4BBs are scary, I'm just happy they aren't Yamatos :) The Allies scramble to defend their territories. Meanwhile, on the mainland, huge Naval expenditures have hurt the Japanese Army, but with the Navy controlling the Pacific, can the Army turn it around?

http://img227.exs.cx/img227/1862/image17gx.th.png (http://img227.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img227&image=image17gx.png)

[AxisRoll]

PAgan, you need to get it on with Team Axis Roll... Where's the love!

[AllWeNeedIsLove.]

PAgan, you need to get it on with Team Axis Roll... Where's the love!
right here

[pagan]

Ahh, but for the lack of a computer..... (pagan is lamenting)

[pagan]

Still dreaming of actually playing....