AARE rules question: Max economic damage.

[Ulf]

I'm unsure of how the max limit works. It is mentioned at two places in the rules.

Firstly under the description of Convoy Raids where it is clear that a single IC can not loose more than the IPC value of the territory due to convoy raids.

Secondly under the description of Heavy Bombers where it says that combined economic attacs of subs, rockets and SBR on a territory is limited to the territorys IPC value per TURN.

The problem is that that subs damage happends during the defenders TURN and the rockets and SBR damage happends during the attackers TURN.

I hope the max damage rule work like in this example:
On UKs Collect Income Phase he collects 8 IPC from the England territory. I like to think of these IPC allocated to that territory for economic damage point of view. Let's say Convoy Raids take 3 of them away. Then there is 5 left which is at risk during Japans and Germanys turns to be taken form rockets and SBR aginst the England territory.

Additional question:
I don't hope the limit has anything to with whether Heavy Bombers are developed?


The example in the rules with the sub i z8 doing damage to England(1 zone away) and EUS(3 zones away?) is misleading. Put it in z9.

I hope to get these things clarified as Enhanched sounds as a great enhancement to AAR. Hope to try a game soon.

/Ulf.

[pagan]

Strategic Bombing Raid (SBR) damage is separate from Convoy Raid (no short form)

SBR limit on UK is 8 IPCs
Convoy Raid limit on UK is 8IPCs

So it is possible for Uk to lose 8 IPCs on germany's turn
and then another 8IPCs on the collect income phase of UK's turn

I think the wording is fine:

adjacent to IC = 2 IPCs per sub
1 sz away from IC = 1 IPC per sub

As a side note: UK suffers Convoy Damage from enemy subs on its turn only.

[Cruelsader]

I'm unsure of how the max limit works. It is mentioned at two places in the rules.

Firstly under the description of Convoy Raids where it is clear that a single IC can not loose more than the IPC value of the territory due to convoy raids.

Secondly under the description of Heavy Bombers where it says that combined economic attacs of subs, rockets and SBR on a territory is limited to the territorys IPC value per TURN.

The problem is that that subs damage happends during the defenders TURN and the rockets and SBR damage happends during the attackers TURN.

I was thinking of exactly the same thing. One possible solution would be requiring combat move to move subs close to ICs and allowing subs to "attack" empty sea zones. Income would be deducted after the combat resolutions. In this way it is easy to keep track of the total economic damage. It would also make it much easier to conduct sub warfare (because the opponent does not have chance to prevent economic damage unless s/he has fleets in all sea areas near ICs) which seems to be a good idea since subs tend to be underused despite their many abilities.

[pagan]

read my post above.

no problems with SBRs & Convoy Raids

Nothing to keep track of.

TURN = a single country's actions
ROUND = one full action by every country from USSR to USA

here is the rule excerpt from AARe 2.0:
-the combined totalof all economic attacks (SBR,Rockets,Subs) on a territory, are limited to that territory's IPC value per TURN


Convoy damage is done on UK's turn. While SBR+Rockets are done on the attacker's turn. These damages are not carried over through the Round.

[pagan]

little 'e' is for the 'enhanced' variant AARe

big 'E' is representative of the Europe game, and there is no revised edition of that as of yet but that moniker is taken nonetheless : AAE (maybe later AARE)

but hey, if no one else complains, then just ignore this.

[DocD]

Great points pagan. The "extra loss" from convoy raid is what makes them so devastating. To limit them in anyway what not improve the game.

Raid losses force the Allies to hunt down those subs as they should.

Also having the raid losses apply at the end of a player's turn gives them a chance to at least try and sink/submerge the sub to prevent it from doing any damage. This nicely sets up the battles we see on the Atlantic high seas.

[stevebalk]

Are you sure you are correct in your interpretation of the economic damage rule? I had seen that as saying that the UK could lose 8 TOTAL. What you are saying is that the UK can lose 8 from Subs in the UK turn, then 8 from SB/rockets during the German turn.

Or a better example -- Germany get bombed by the US and UK and Russia. The max damage is then 30. I don't think this can be the intent of the rule.

How about the allies bombing the Japanese mainland complex 3x per round?

Steve

[pagan]

I am correct.

Bombing your opponent is cost effective??? If the average of killing a bomber is 1/6, then on average the IPC:IPC investment is 14(AARe BMR) : 17-18 (6th round is the death of the bomber)

Now what you have here is a total of FIVE ROUNDS of play with a total of 17-18 IPCs not being able to be spent.

IS 5 rounds of play for 17-18 SBR damage cost effective for you?

Remember that bombers are not being used for combats.

[DocD]

That's interesting Pagan, as I have seen other numbers that suggest the SBR is a lost by the time the bomber goes down.

I would say in AARe it is a good value if attached to multiple SBR, convoy raids and/or rockets. The multiple fronts present is what makes it such a good thing, IMO.

[pagan]

It s a definate loss if the damage is per ROUND

It is just at the threshold of success if the damage is per TURN

[DocD]

If SBR is added with convoy raid losses and other allies hitting enemy with their raids also, it is a winner. Again in IMO.

[Ulf]

Thanks for the clarification. I believe Pagan and DocC to right as you are "insiders". Better still would be a clear ruleset. Of the 5 contributers to this thread so far 3 were mislead by the rules. So I suggest to clarify the wording.

here is the rule excerpt from AARe 2.0:
-the combined totalof all economic attacks (SBR,Rockets,Subs) on a territory, are limited to that territory's IPC value per TURN.

As there will never ever in no single turn be a combined economic attack of Subs and (SBR, Rockets) against the same territory, then remove the Subs word from the rule above as it is only misleading. That way they will be easyer to read also for non test players.

I understand that there probably will come a revision with new D-day rules and I hope this clarification will be implented too.
/Ulf.

[pagan]

The wording for subs has to be in there.

Otherwise sub Convoy Damage would not be listed with the restriction of the territory value. (since subs aren't restricted I could have 20 of them do 40IPCs of Convoy Damage!)

I think its very clear if you don't modify the process in your head before you read the rule. Most of the time it's a confusion over what a ROUND or TURN is.

However, CJ may decide to clarify it a bit.

[Ulf]

The max limit for subs Convoy Damage is already described where it belongs under the paragraph for Convoy Raids. No need to repeat it under the Heavy Bombers paragraph where it only mislead.

[cousin_joe]

I'm unsure of how the max limit works. It is mentioned at two places in the rules.

Firstly under the description of Convoy Raids where it is clear that a single IC can not loose more than the IPC value of the territory due to convoy raids.

Secondly under the description of Heavy Bombers where it says that combined economic attacs of subs, rockets and SBR on a territory is limited to the territorys IPC value per TURN.

The problem is that that subs damage happends during the defenders TURN and the rockets and SBR damage happends during the attackers TURN.

I hope the max damage rule work like in this example:
On UKs Collect Income Phase he collects 8 IPC from the England territory. I like to think of these IPC allocated to that territory for economic damage point of view. Let's say Convoy Raids take 3 of them away. Then there is 5 left which is at risk during Japans and Germanys turns to be taken form rockets and SBR aginst the England territory.

Additional question:
I don't hope the limit has anything to with whether Heavy Bombers are developed?


The example in the rules with the sub i z8 doing damage to England(1 zone away) and EUS(3 zones away?) is misleading. Put it in z9.

I hope to get these things clarified as Enhanched sounds as a great enhancement to AAR. Hope to try a game soon.

/Ulf.

Hi Ulf,

True, I can see how this can possibly be misleading. Pagan is correct that

SBR and Rocket damage happen on the attacker's TURN
CR damage happen on the defender's TURN

In a single game TURN (eg. one nation's TURN, with there being 5 TURNS in a ROUND), damage is maxed out at the territory's IPC value. So for example:

UK can lose up to 8IPC on Germany's TURN - whether it be from SBR or Rockets, but never more than 8IPC.

UK can lose an additional 8IPC on UK's TURN - this would be from Convoy Raids.

In theory, UK can also lose an additional 8IPC on Japan's TURN, if Japan were to hit them with SBR or Rockets - very, very unlikely!!! :D

You are correct about the example and it should be in SZ 9. In that case, affectnig the ECanada IC would be worth more and I will have to change that too. This will be done for version 2.1. Thanks. :)

[cousin_joe]

Great points pagan. The "extra loss" from convoy raid is what makes them so devastating. To limit them in anyway what not improve the game.

Raid losses force the Allies to hunt down those subs as they should.

Also having the raid losses apply at the end of a player's turn gives them a chance to at least try and sink/submerge the sub to prevent it from doing any damage. This nicely sets up the battles we see on the Atlantic high seas.

Excellent explanation DocD for why Convoy Raids are structured the way they are.

[cousin_joe]

Are you sure you are correct in your interpretation of the economic damage rule? I had seen that as saying that the UK could lose 8 TOTAL. What you are saying is that the UK can lose 8 from Subs in the UK turn, then 8 from SB/rockets during the German turn.

Or a better example -- Germany get bombed by the US and UK and Russia. The max damage is then 30. I don't think this can be the intent of the rule.

How about the allies bombing the Japanese mainland complex 3x per round?

Steve

Hi Steve,

As these mainland complexes are only worth 3IPC, the maximum damage in a round would only be 9IPC.

P.S. Where did Russia get that Bomber from? ;) :D

[pagan]

I Win Again !!