AARE 2.1 Playtest: newaxis vs. Vollick1979

[Vollick1979]

We're using Bilateral, new D-Day rules and we switched the art and tank in africa. Plus the Axis got a bid of 5.

This is the map after G1. I'm afraid I may have made a major mistake in stacking in Karelia. But only time will tell if that's the case. :)

[Vollick1979]

...and the picture looks like crappola.

I'll try and fix it tomorrow.

[cousin_joe]

We're using Bilateral, new D-Day rules and we switched the art and tank in africa. Plus the Axis got a bid of 5.

This is the map after G1. I'm afraid I may have made a major mistake in stacking in Karelia. But only time will tell if that's the case. :)

Good we'll see if Mr. Statistics knows more than just statistics, and if newaxis is the real deal, or possibly just series in disguise (the No Caps thing is kinda suspicious ;) )

Wow, you guys are on my case about a bid of 8, yet are perfectly fine switching the ARM and RTL AND giving a bid of 5. Go figure. How's the bid split up, who's who, and what NAs are you picking?

Nice to see a lot of new players getting into Mapview. Keep it up as AAMC should be running an AARe tournament in April :)

[cousin_joe]

...and the picture looks like crappola.

I'll try and fix it tomorrow.

Picture's not bad Vollick. What programs are you using??? :)

[Vollick1979]

Oh i know more than statistics joe, you can rest assured on that. All the rules of Enhanced? I wouldn't go that far :(

[newaxis]

Man, my first post and I'll five or six posts down. As previously stated, I have tried various file compression programs to no avail, so no maps from me.

cousin joe, look at what I actually said your game vs pagan. I'm not "all over your case." I asked you a few questions and told you to think. That's my style, not a combative YOU'RE WRONG YOU #$%$%^$%&^&%^& I figured you would like to see how Africa develops with the swap and a lower bid. Perhaps I was wrong.

On a side note, what makes you think I am series? Does my tone remind you of him or something? J/C

I am Allies and Vollick1979 is the axis. Bid was 5. We swapped the artillery and the tank in Libya & Algeria. Revised D-day & Bilateral Non-aggression treaty.

R1: Purchase=3 Arm, 3 Inf NA=Lend-Lease Strafed Ukrained down to arm, ftr for loss of 2 inf. Took West Russia.

G1: Purchase=8 inf, 1 AC, 2 arm NA=Africa Divisions. See the map above in Vollick's post.

UK1: Purchase=1 AC, 1DD, 2 Inf NA=Colonial Garrison Liberated the French in WE, we'll see how well they rise to the occasion. Moved India fleet to Kwantung Coast, minus Tr to block East Indies. Flew bmr to Sinkiang. Assaulted Solomon Islands sub, lost tra again, submerged sub. SZ7 fleet=1 DD, 1 BB, 1 AC, 1 Ftr, 2 Tra, and it threatens various areas on the map. Garrisoned India.

[cousin_joe]

Man, my first post and I'll five or six posts down. As previously stated, I have tried various file compression programs to no avail, so no maps from me.

cousin joe, look at what I actually said your game vs pagan. I'm not "all over your case." I asked you a few questions and told you to think. That's my style, not a combative YOU'RE WRONG YOU #$%$%^$%&^&%^& I figured you would like to see how Africa develops with the swap and a lower bid. Perhaps I was wrong.

On a side note, what makes you think I am series? Does my tone remind you of him or something? J/C

I am Allies and Vollick1979 is the axis. Bid was 5. We swapped the artillery and the tank in Libya & Algeria. Revised D-day & Bilateral Non-aggression treaty.

R1: Purchase=3 Arm, 3 Inf NA=Lend-Lease Strafed Ukrained down to arm, ftr for loss of 2 inf. Took West Russia.

G1: Purchase=8 inf, 1 AC, 2 arm NA=Africa Divisions. See the map above in Vollick's post.

UK1: Purchase=1 AC, 1DD, 2 Inf NA=Colonial Garrison Liberated the French in WE, we'll see how well they rise to the occasion. Moved India fleet to Kwantung Coast, minus Tr to block East Indies. Flew bmr to Sinkiang. Assaulted Solomon Islands sub, lost tra again, submerged sub. SZ7 fleet=1 DD, 1 BB, 1 AC, 1 Ftr, 2 Tra, and it threatens various areas on the map. Garrisoned India.

Sorry if I came across that way, newaxis :o . As is often the case, inflection is lost in text communication. I was joking about series, you're a much better player than he.

The take of WEur is curious. Are you guys playing with the rule that once the Allies take WEur, they lose their ability ro run D-Day?? If you are, this may come back to haunt you...

[newaxis]

Not stated, so no.

[Vollick1979]

Well I was obviously under the impression we were playing with that rule:
http://boards.avalonhill.com/showpo...95&postcount=21

I don't want to be a prick or anything but when cousin_joe wrote:

Under all options, I will also be including the following new condition. If the Allies ever capture WEur, they may no longer use D-Day.

I didn't think we had to specify before hand that this was part of the rules. I thought this specific rule was going to be part of 2.1! Was that presumptious of me?

[DocD]

Interesting game for sure.....hey vollick your pics look great...post as many as you can.

[newaxis]

First of all, I tried the link and it didn't work.

No, I don't think that you are being unreasonable Vollick. The discussion over D-day evolved over time, and the official beta rules were different than initially proposed. cousin joe commented on the thread after Axis_Roll posted the official playtest version. The initial selection on 1-24-05 changed by 2-04-05 As you can read, the official playtest version makes no mention of losing the advantage.

Here is the link to that discussion:

http://boards.avalonhill.com/showthread.php?t=3876&page=3&pp=10
Stephen says:
CJ, what's the rulke likely to be? I'm about to start a game and will play whatever rule your leaning towards (I would say play-test, but since this game will probably last 2 months, I won't be done in time to give feedback for 2.1)

Axis_Roll replies:
Version 2.1 with D-Day:

UK units may only be involved in an attack on Western Europe itself (not the SZs). UK TRNs can participate in Naval Combat in adjacent SZs only if dropping off units into WEur. UK DDs and BBs may bombard but only if the SZ is clear of enemy units at the start of the US turn. All land and sea units (UK and US) attacking WEur this turn, must do so via SZ 7.
-removes combined naval attacks except for with just the UK trannies, which must be loaded (but not necessarily fully loaded)
-gives Germany a safe haven from combined attack (Baltic, and Atlantic SZs other than 7)
-does not allow TRNs in SZ 4 or SZ 14-16 to be involved in a D-Day assault[/


While I think the idea was discussed, as time went on the "give up D-day" option was largely ignored and dropped into the background. I looked at the discussion thread from

[Vollick1979]

It looks like your post got caught off there newaxis. Well most of the discussion was involving what restrictions were being placed on where D-Day could commence from and what units were allowed to take part. When I read that post of CJ's the part that got me excited (yes i excite very easily) was the part about once WEur was taken D-Day was no longer an option. I have no problem which way CJ decides on the issue but suffice to say my plan was to abandon W.Europe on the premise that the new D-Day rules included the provision mentioned above.

Continuing on without the removal of the allied D-Day puts me at a serious disadvantage and continuing on with the removal of the allied D-Day option puts you at a serious disadvantage. A true no win situation. I would like your suggestions newaxis before we continue.

[cousin_joe]

It looks like your post got caught off there newaxis. Well most of the discussion was involving what restrictions were being placed on where D-Day could commence from and what units were allowed to take part. When I read that post of CJ's the part that got me excited (yes i excite very easily) was the part about once WEur was taken D-Day was no longer an option. I have no problem which way CJ decides on the issue but suffice to say my plan was to abandon W.Europe on the premise that the new D-Day rules included the provision mentioned above.

Continuing on without the removal of the allied D-Day puts me at a serious disadvantage and continuing on with the removal of the allied D-Day option puts you at a serious disadvantage. A true no win situation. I would like your suggestions newaxis before we continue.

The likely ruling would be that once WEur falls, the Allies lose their D-Day option.

Rationale:

Germany has the option of playing an even more agressive Eastern Front early on
-by doing so though, they open up WEur to early Allied landings, and can see their reinforcements to the Eastern Front cut off by being forced to exchange WEur with the Allies

Alternatively, Germany can go for the more conservative slow push, but at least keeping the Allies out of WEur with less resources expended overall (as they are defending)

If Germany opens up WEur, then the Allies have 2 options. Take WEur, but lose their D-Day option. This could prove very costly if Germany decides to stack WEur after retaking, and with Allied resources tied up facing Japan more as well, taking WEur again may prove very difficutly.

Alternatively, the Allies can just wait patiently, and ignore the bait, thus keeping D-Day still in hand if needed.

The more tough choices players are forced to make, the better the game. :)

[DocD]

Finally we agree on something CJ. I thought this rule was basically a given until you spelled it out, then I remember I was reading something into the original that was not there. I am definitely for it as it gives the Axis a wee bit of a needed advantage.

Hell anything that makes Russia not think about sending troops into India I'm for.

I hope you guys can come to some kind of agreement and not let this "rule oversight" get out of hand.

[pagan]

My opinion:

play it with the suggested rules, so that means no more D-Day for the allies.

If it sucks then playtest will show it.

[cousin_joe]

Finally we agree on something CJ. I thought this rule was basically a given until you spelled it out, then I remember I was reading something into the original that was not there. I am definitely for it as it gives the Axis a wee bit of a needed advantage.

Hell anything that makes Russia not think about sending troops into India I'm for.

I hope you guys can come to some kind of agreement and not let this "rule oversight" get out of hand.

This one's a true Orange Crush Killer... Here's why...

R1 - Russia decides to support Sink and Ind factories, weakening them a bit on the Eastern Front

G1 - BLAMMO!!! Leave 1 INF in WEur and push to Moscow. This will make the Allies think twice about continuing with Orange Crush.

UK1 - Now time for a few tough decisions...

A. Do I take WEur, and lose my D-Day option? G1 could possibly be a feint, as Germany can always restack G2, and with D-Day lost, Allies will be much harder pressed to apply pressure on WEur.

B. Do I put a factory in India, meaning less units to Kar/Arch to support Russia, who can then be possibly overrun by a continued agressive Germany on G2? Furthermore, I will have less Russian support available for this factory.

US1 - An agressive Germany must be dealt with by quick pressure on WEur. A Sink IC or Pacific Fleet will mean less pressure on Germany's Western Front... do I risk it?

R2 on - Do I keep supporting the Allied ICs or do I get abck to the Eastern Front where Germany is threatening...

G2 on - If the Allies respond with pressure on WEur and Rus coming back to the Eastern Front, then you might have to slow down your attack and protect France. However, if they continue with Orange Crush and Russian support, you have a good opportunity to CRUSH Russia!!!

So as you can see, the possible loss of D-Day for the Allies through an early invasion really allows Germany to be more agressive, and subsequently makes the Allies think twice about going so Heavy against Japan :)

[pagan]

LOL.... you are smoking some swEEET grass, CJ....

but the aggressive Germany towards USSR, does remove a great deal of the 'Third' Ally in asia.

[axis_roll]

That all sounds good to help Japan in Asia in theory, but in reality, All that is needed is the initial USSR units that start out eastto help the allies get going against Japan.

Sure a couple inf a turn can go to sinkiang to really help the allies, but I don't think that's totally necessary (depends alot on J1 in China)

[newaxis]

First to Vollick, I offer a 3rd option. I'll not invade WE on UK 1. Since Japan hasn't gone yet, that should be an easy fix. We'll play this crazy give up the NA if you invade WE, but I will do so under protest, not to you, but to cousin joe. Read on.

Now, to the greater issue at hand. I am disturbed by the increasing number of rules changes in Enhanced that sacrifice a degree of historical realism for game mechanics. Yes, A&A is a game, not a historical simulator, but we should strive where possible.

Quite simply, there is no way that Hitler would pull back from Western Europe to invade Russia. Even if he decided to, he wouldn't think to himself, "Yes, now the Allies won't be able to Joint Strike." Come on man. Yes, the rule helps Germany out, but let's find something else. I really have a hard time swallowing this one. I am "pro" making additional changes to help Germany out, but not a rule that encourages them to evacuate WE.

This, and the fact that the Non-aggression treaty Inf appear in the territory being attacked instead of on your capital (or even in an adjacent territory) really make me shake my head.

[DocD]

That all sounds good to help Japan in Asia in theory, but in reality, All that is needed is the initial USSR units that start out eastto help the allies get going against Japan.

Sure a couple inf a turn can go to sinkiang to really help the allies, but I don't think that's totally necessary (depends alot on J1 in China)
Can't agree here with you roll. First, Russian units attacking orange spaces gives Japan 4 additional inf....that's good for Japan in anybody's book.

Second, if Russian forces can't/don't attack orange spaces then they have to go "around" to reach China/Sinkiang....that takes time which also benefits Japan.

Third, Russian troops east of Moscow are inf. Russian tanks make for better defense so again this is a plus to Japan.

It's pretty much all or nothing for Russia if they plan to help Allies in Asia....piecemeal stuff would get eaten up.

[DocD]

First to Vollick, I offer a 3rd option. I'll not invade WE on UK 1. Since Japan hasn't gone yet, that should be an easy fix. We'll play this crazy give up the NA if you invade WE, but I will do so under protest, not to you, but to cousin joe. Read on.

Now, to the greater issue at hand. I am disturbed by the increasing number of rules changes in Enhanced that sacrifice a degree of historical realism for game mechanics. Yes, A&A is a game, not a historical simulator, but we should strive where possible.

Quite simply, there is no way that Hitler would pull back from Western Europe to invade Russia. Even if he decided to, he wouldn't think to himself, "Yes, now the Allies won't be able to Joint Strike." Come on man. Yes, the rule helps Germany out, but let's find something else. I really have a hard time swallowing this one. I am "pro" making additional changes to help Germany out, but not a rule that encourages them to evacuate WE.

This, and the fact that the Non-aggression treaty Inf appear in the territory being attacked instead of on your capital (or even in an adjacent territory) really make me shake my head.
I can't say I agree with you here either axis.

I see your historical point to some degree....just can't put my finger on why I'm against your view point...give me a sec.....

[axis_roll]

It's pretty much all or nothing for Russia if they plan to help Allies in Asia....piecemeal stuff would get eaten up.
I guess we agree to disagree.

I did preface my statements by saying that it GREATLY depends on what is left in Asia after Japan turn 1.

It's easy to set up a USSR smash of China on R2. Usually Japan is only also in one other territory (generally FIC) at end of J1....

So now Japan is down to 2/3 ground units in Asia for J2. Now how many are put into asia on J2 depends their buys on J1 as well (transports, IC(s) )

So there's a great deal of variability here.

I can say that I have personally seen Japan controlled with very little help from Russia (except inf)

obviously, tanks make a better Crush Japan, but I am saying that it can be done without them as well.

[Vollick1979]

Japan: took Naval Advantage and rolled for Combined Arms and failed to get it.
Attacked UK DD, AC and FTR in sz 59, scored 2 hits and retreated to sz 60.
Attack UK TRN in sz 36
Attacked China with 6 INF, 2 FTR and 1 BMR vs. 2 INF, 1 FTR. Japan lost 2 INF.

http://img166.exs.cx/img166/848/j1finaledited2sk.jpg

[newaxis]

The Japanese retreat from Kwantung, thus enabling them to threaten a lot more. If Vollick has hit 3 times (which he should have by the odds), things would be very different. Being able to shunt to a different SZ and get 3 movement leaves a bad taste in my mouth. But props to him, it was a solid move.

US1 Purchase 2 Inf, 2 Art, 3 Tra, Save 4 NA=Marines Mass Transport of entire East US to UK and SZ 8. Kept BB, AC, Ftr, Transport on the West Coast to keep Japan honest. Flew 2 ftrs to East Canada. Moved sub to some southern Pacific island group, I think New Guinea. Placed purchase on the East Coast & moved Central US Inf east.

R2: Purchase 7 Inf, 1 Tank. Dead zoned Ukarine, mass reinforcement of West Russia. I'm sure Vollick will post a map after G2. Reinforced Russia with Novisbursk (sp?) troops, and nationalized 2 US troops in Novisbursk. I'm abadoning Sinkiang, for now.

[cousin_joe]

Nice pic Vollick!! :)

A picture tells a thousand words. I like Japan's position and think they're in good shape to kick some Allied butt :)

[cousin_joe]

The Japanese retreat from Kwantung, thus enabling them to threaten a lot more. If Vollick has hit 3 times (which he should have by the odds), things would be very different. Being able to shunt to a different SZ and get 3 movement leaves a bad taste in my mouth. But props to him, it was a solid move.

US1 Purchase 2 Inf, 2 Art, 3 Tra, Save 4 NA=Marines Mass Transport of entire East US to UK and SZ 8. Kept BB, AC, Ftr, Transport on the West Coast to keep Japan honest. Flew 2 ftrs to East Canada. Moved sub to some southern Pacific island group, I think New Guinea. Placed purchase on the East Coast & moved Central US Inf east.

R2: Purchase 7 Inf, 1 Tank. Dead zoned Ukarine, mass reinforcement of West Russia. I'm sure Vollick will post a map after G2. Reinforced Russia with Novisbursk (sp?) troops, and nationalized 2 US troops in Novisbursk. I'm abadoning Sinkiang, for now.

Interesting NA selection. I feel Marines as an NA is seriously underestimated. It's for the patient player, much like German 88's. Think about, you double your INFs attack power not only on the WEur attack, but on the subsequent Germany attack as well.

[Vollick1979]

G2: Germany selects Panzerblitz, purchases 7 inf, 3 tanks, 1 transport
Germany attacks Arcangel with 1 inf, 1 fighter, 1 Bmb vs. 1 inf. 1 hit each.
Germany retakes Ukraine
In sz 6 blasted Russian sub goes undetected and destroys German Transport
Germany runs wild in Africa.
http://img203.exs.cx/img203/1985/g2fedited7bk.jpg

[Vollick1979]

There is a UK infantry in South Africa
http://img120.exs.cx/img120/9955/g2fafricaedited1gp.jpg

[pagan]

USSR sub shot: The mighty USSR fleet is a force to be reckoned with !!

Africa: Source of both cash & expense by germany. Most of the time its less Assets with higher Expense....

[Vollick1979]

Well you might be right about Africa Pagan, I have 4 tanks (perhaps too many) in Africa. The territories in AFrica will be a fight for the UK or US to retake so it's not like we're both generating IPC's from the territory, it's a strictly German cash grab. So in these cases Germany is up 7 in Africa and the UK is down 7, that's a 14 IPC swing, and that translates into quite a few infantry.

So far: More Assets, Lesser Expense

[newaxis]

UK2: Purchase: 3 tanks, 1 Inf, save 7. NA=Commonwealth First of all, giving up D-day is #%#@$%^. You can insert your favorite expletive there. Of course Germany has evacuated WE, because the game mechanics of doing so are sound. I hate this D-day nerf with a burning passion. It has been a thorn in my side for the 6 games I have played with the 2.1 rules. Not the SZ 7, but giving up D-day if you take WE. We put in a NA to have a historical simulation, but then give Germany no incentive to put troops in the territory. Find another way to help the Axis; there is no way Germany would evacuate WE and not have the French rise up in rebellion! <sigh>

Back to UK2: Took Algeria, moved fleet down. Vollick did some masterful maneuvering, and left himself many options. I reinforced India and moved sub to East Indies.

[DocD]

Well you might be right about Africa Pagan, I have 4 tanks (perhaps too many) in Africa. The territories in AFrica will be a fight for the UK or US to retake so it's not like we're both generating IPC's from the territory, it's a strictly German cash grab. So in these cases Germany is up 7 in Africa and the UK is down 7, that's a 14 IPC swing, and that translates into quite a few infantry.

So far: More Assets, Lesser Expense
Yeah vollick, I'm not sure what Pagan was talking about.
Africa in German hands is an Asset for Axis and an Expense for the Allies.

It's the Allies who will spend more to get it back. Get subs convoy raiding in the Atlantic and the UK will be lucky to output 2 tanks a round.

Also vollick....newbie huh? yeah right. You had me fooled...now I will have to add you to my list of people to watch out for. :D

[Vollick1979]

http://img214.exs.cx/img214/4351/uk2map2edited8wv.jpg

[cousin_joe]

First of all, giving up D-day is #%#@$%^. You can insert your favorite expletive there. Of course Germany has evacuated WE, because the game mechanics of doing so are sound. I hate this D-day nerf with a burning passion. It has been a thorn in my side for the 6 games I have played with the 2.1 rules. Not the SZ 7, but giving up D-day if you take WE. We put in a NA to have a historical simulation, but then give Germany no incentive to put troops in the territory. Find another way to help the Axis; there is no way Germany would evacuate WE and not have the French rise up in rebellion! <sigh>


1. The "Atlantic Wall" really began in Spring of 1942 and involved the construction of minefields, concrete walls, concrete bunkers, barbed wire fences, and fortified artillery emplacements. In command of the more than 3,000 miles of coastline was Field Marshal Karl Gerd von Rundstedt - who, now at the age of 69, held mostly a figurehead position. At this earlier point in the war, the "Atlantic Wall" was woefully inadequate.

2. Hitler had long been aware that the Anglo-American allies would eventually mount a cross-Channel invasion, but, as long as they dissipated their forces in the Mediterranean and as long as the campaign in the East demanded the commitment of all available German forces, he downplayed the threat. By November 1943, however, he accepted that it could be ignored no longer, and in Führer Directive 51 (http://search.eb.com/normandy/pri/Q00224.html) he announced that France would be reinforced.

The quotes here showed that the Atlantic Wall and France fortification occur past Spring 1942 (mot people consider one round of A&A to represent one season or 3 months, so a later France buildup is certainly fine.

Axis and Allies requires a lot of abstraction. I never think of an empty territory as actually being empty. I think of troops being there, controlling the citizens in the territory, but not large enough in amount to warrant an INF piece being placed in the territory.

[Vollick1979]

http://img227.exs.cx/img227/6051/uk2map1edited8ds.jpg

[Lt M Cotten]

Axis and Allies requires a lot of abstraction. I never think of an empty territory as actually being empty. I think of troops being there, controlling the citizens in the territory, but not large enough in amount to warrant an INF piece being placed in the territory.

I understand what you are saying CJ but the total evacuation of Western Europe is not very realistic. I realize that game mechanics makes it possible but it is a very difficult position to support.

I agree that the benefit of a D-Day senerio should be a one time deal, but would it be unfeasable if UK had liberated WE w/o D-Day to use D-Day later if needed?

I do think that an "enemy" occupied territory should require at least one unit to "control" it, otherwise it would liberate itself. I know that nothing in the ruleset supports this but, maybe it would not be such a bad thing.

[Vollick1979]

J2: finished off the CA tech
purchased: IC, and 4 infantry
Destroyed UK DD in sz 50
Took empty Sinkiang with a single inf.

Looks like there is a big battle brewing in the jungles of Burma.


Note: There are 4 russian inf in Buryatia SSR

http://img124.exs.cx/img124/8335/j2fmap1edited8ey.jpg

[Vollick1979]

http://img91.exs.cx/img91/3551/j2fmap2edited8wd.jpg

[Stephen]

First of all, giving up D-day is #%#@$%^. You can insert your favorite expletive there. Of course Germany has evacuated WE, because the game mechanics of doing so are sound.
There are disadvantages to evacuating WEur. One that I have noticed is the decreased range of the Luftwaffe. Flying out of Germany severely restricts their ability to threaten Atlantic navies. This is huge, as it offers opportunities to the allies to spread themselves out, which is normally not an option when the Luftwaffe based in WEur has a lot of range in the Atlantic.

Further, Germany has to maintain a force that is ability to strike and retake WEur. I agree somewhat with CJ that this has always been an option for Germany.

Anyways, as stated in my point about modifying the D-Day rule, I'm not convinced it needs fixing, but in case it does, that's an option.

[Vollick1979]

G3: Purchase 1 AC, 2 Transports, 6 Infantry
Germany retakes Ukraine and Karelia, in the process destroying 1 inf, 1 art in each.
Germany SB's UK for 3 IPC's.
Germany loses a Tank but takes South Africa.
(http://www.imageshack.us]/)http://img67.exs.cx/img67/1012/g3fnorth8qo.jpg

[Vollick1979]

See for yourself:
[/url][URL=http://www.imageshack.us]http://img230.exs.cx/img230/4618/g3fsouth5ku.jpg ("")

[newaxis]

UK3: After a sober look at the board (not that I play A&A drunk ;) I think that I will lose this battle. There is hope, however, that the human calculator will make a mistake. By, the way, WE is still empty. I wonder why... I can't effectively attack anything, so no combat. You will behold a nice rules screw in a moment however, so all is not lost. Built an AC in SZ 8 and 3 Inf for India. Landed UK Ftr on AC and moved UK fleet back to SZ 8.

[newaxis]

Vollick will post some maps soon, but here's the skinny on the past few turns.

J3: Purchase 1 DD, 1 Tra, 3 Tanks Moved into New Guinea, reinforced FIC.

US3: Purchase 1 Ftr, 1 Tra, 1 DD, 4 Inf Killed German Northen Navy with 2 DDs left. Moved some troops to UK; Northern path in Atlantic is clear.

R4: Purchase 2 Art, 7 Inf Took Karelia, Belorussia, & Ukraine, & China.

[Vollick1979]

The Allies have once again wrested control away from the Kriegsmarine, the Italian fleet however has eluded their grasp for now.
[/url][URL=http://www.imageshack.us]http://img240.exs.cx/img240/3341/us3fatlantic4yj.jpg ("")

[Vollick1979]

Other than the standard fare this was the move that impressed me the most on R4. And just another reason my proposed rules for subs in Enhanced should be looked at in more detail.
[/url][URL=http://www.imageshack.us]http://img60.exs.cx/img60/5388/r4cmed4cd.jpg ("")

[Vollick1979]

Germany purchases 8 inf 5 tanks
Germany abandons Africa to take Ukraine with Force
Germany threatens both W.Russia and Caucasus
[/url][URL=http://www.imageshack.us]http://img203.exs.cx/img203/2527/g4feastern6vd.jpg ("")

[cousin_joe]

Other than the standard fare this was the move that impressed me the most on R4. And just another reason my proposed rules for subs in Enhanced should be looked at in more detail.
http://img60.exs.cx/img60/5388/r4cmed4cd.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us/)

In this scenario, Germany should have at least one destroyer, ideally two. This would make Russia think twice about this move. Alternatively, a couple of SUBs also could have been helpful.

People keep playing Enhanced with their old AH/LHTR mindsets, thinking they can get away with just TRNs and ACs, and that SUBs and DDs are useless. NEWS FLASH!!! You NEED to buy SUBs and DDs in Enhanced, otherwise this stuff happens to you!! :D

Don't blame the rules guys, adapt your games to prevent this sort of thing. For 2IPC more, Germany could have had a DD instead of that 4th TRN. The way I see it, Germany was greedy here and got burned.

[newaxis]

I have conceded. Vollick's Reverse Africa Swoop has defeated me.

[Vollick1979]

In this scenario, Germany should have at least one destroyer, ideally two. This would make Russia think twice about this move. Alternatively, a couple of SUBs also could have been helpful.

People keep playing Enhanced with their old AH/LHTR mindsets, thinking they can get away with just TRNs and ACs, and that SUBs and DDs are useless. NEWS FLASH!!! You NEED to buy SUBs and DDs in Enhanced, otherwise this stuff happens to you!! :D

Don't blame the rules guys, adapt your games to prevent this sort of thing. For 2IPC more, Germany could have had a DD instead of that 4th TRN. The way I see it, Germany was greedy here and got burned.


The problem with purchasing either a sub or a DD is that I had no use for them other than in preventing that single move. Most likely if i had either a sub or a DD in that sz the russian sub wouldn't have moved into sz 14. But if he still made the move and wasn't detected it would still have prevented my loading up the infantry in SEur.

The question still remains what would i have done with 2 subs sitting in the mediteranean? Or a DD for that matter? They would have been poor purchases in my mind because the only benefit they would have is in possibly preventing one thing; the Russian sub preventing the loading of troops. And since it wasn't guaranteed to prevent that I couldn't justify purchasing either a DD or a SUB.

[DocD]

Hey Vollick my man.....congratulation on the victory.

I see what you are getting at but I have to agree with CJ on this one....and you know I don't like doing that!!:)

CJ is right. We have to think a tad bit different with this game. The very fact that ACs defend at 2 now means that navies are not as powerful on defense as they once where. This is more than enough sound judgement to include a DD in any fleet that is built.

Add to that the slippery nature of subs and one can understand the need to always have fleet protection around in the form of a DD or two.

Now, I can't say I care very much for subs attacking subs right now but that's another story.

[Vollick1979]

DocD, I wasn't concerned about my Med fleet being attacked in force. If the Americans went heavy into it I was fairly confident I would survive.

When you talk about fleet protection, in my mind nothing is better fleet protection than a BB.

For argument's sake I could have purchased one less transport and one less tank and one more infantry and one DD. Now this could have prevented the Russian sub attack, but then what? I have a DD in the med, how exactly is that helping me? If bought a sub instead of one Transport it might have prevented the Russian sub attack but possibly not and then I have a sub in the med and can't really get him out. I understand what CJ and the Doc is saying but in this case I don't see how a DD or a Sub could have helped me more.

[DocD]

It's not that you have a useless DD setting around.....I don't think destroyer captains that were babysitting convoys in the Atlantic saw it that way.

I would say a DD would help be a deterent against any attack, at least more so than that fourth transport.

Also, it provides a nice pad on your fleet's ability to attack if you ever were so inclined.....anyway, just my thoughts. :)

[cousin_joe]

DocD, I wasn't concerned about my Med fleet being attacked in force. If the Americans went heavy into it I was fairly confident I would survive.

When you talk about fleet protection, in my mind nothing is better fleet protection than a BB.

For argument's sake I could have purchased one less transport and one less tank and one more infantry and one DD. Now this could have prevented the Russian sub attack, but then what? I have a DD in the med, how exactly is that helping me? If bought a sub instead of one Transport it might have prevented the Russian sub attack but possibly not and then I have a sub in the med and can't really get him out. I understand what CJ and the Doc is saying but in this case I don't see how a DD or a Sub could have helped me more.

The DD in the med is preventing you from getting substalled. If you're fine with that, that's ok, but unlike Pacific, there is actually something you can do about this now, ie. buy a DD. It's not the rules that need to change, it's the players... :)

[Vollick1979]

Oh Doc I can for sure see the forest through the trees. I am not stating that subs or DD's don't have a place or time to be purchased but only that in this one situation the transport helped more than either a sub or a DD.

And Doc your thoughts are always welcome, not always correct, but welcome nonetheless. ;)

[cousin_joe]

Hey DocD and Vollick,

I wouldn't mind seeing you two guys duke it out, now that you have a win apiece amongst you. Might gain you some points for that Rookie of the Month Award :D

[Vollick1979]

The DD in the med is preventing you from getting substalled. If you're fine with that, that's ok, but unlike Pacific, there is actually something you can do about this now, ie. buy a DD. It's not the rules that need to change, it's the players... :)

Well let's make one thing clear: Even a DD would only have a 50% chance of preventing the substall from taking place if the Russian player really wanted to substall me.

More than likely having the DD would have prevented the substall entirely, but in that case I have 1 less transport and a DD that really doesn't help me in that situation. The extra Transport did, it meant two extra infantry I could bring either to attack Libya if the Allies stacked in Libya or 2 extra units I could bring to stack in Ukraine, which may or may not have decided the game for me, with newaxis conceeding immediately after that reinforcement.

[Vollick1979]

DocD and I have other plans... secret plans! ;) But Joe i'm thinking you're mistaking not have played by email with being rookies, I can assure you that I've had more than my fair share of ftf games.... Beware the power of statistics!