Bidding

[OctavianNT]

Could Someone Explain This To Me In Words A Really Stupid Person Could Understand?

[series]

You give me 10 IPC and I take axis

Yougive me 8 IPC and I take Axis

You give me 6 IPC and I take Axis

... Ok you win. You take axis with 6 IPC.

I give the 6 IPC to germany. I can spend half now, and I MUST save half. I put an infantry on western Europe.

Ok. Russia's turn.

[OctavianNT]

thats sounds totally different than it was explianed in PBEM at flames of europe

[series]

What did they say.

[OctavianNT]

2.1. Principles of bidding The player playing the axis powers is determined by a bidding system. This system was developed with the goal of balancing out the advantage enjoyed by the allied side in standard 2nd edition A&A. It basically works like this: Both players place their secret bid via the bid server. The server then compares the bids, and the player with the lower bid 'wins' the bid. If the bids of the two sides have the same value, the winner is determined randomly. The server then sends out emails to both sides telling them who won the bid, and the winner of the bid plays the axis side with the additional units he specified in his bid. In case the game is a team game (meaning more than one player per side), of course only one player per side places a bid in the name of his team.

2.2 Number and type of units When bidding, not only the value of the bid but also the exact number, type and location of the units bidded have to be specified. Optionally, a first OOL (order of loss) can be given as well. This greatly reduces the time needed to start the game, for the allied player can now start with his first Russian move right after receiving the bid result. In case the entered bid value does accidentially not match the value of the units specified, the allied player has to check which units are where with the axis player prior to commencing his move. However the outcome and the value of the bid (e.g. player A wins the bid with 21 IPC) remain valid and there is no need to rerun the bidding process.

2.3 Placement of the bidded units - All units or factories that were bidded are placed on the board prior to the first Russian turn - Additional German sea units may be placed in any empty or already German-controlled sea zone bordering German land areas (gray areas on the bord) - Additional German land units (inf, arm, ftr, bmb, aa) may be placed in any German land area (gray areas on the board) - Additional German factories may be placed in any German land area except those where a factory is already present. These additional factories have limited production and may only produce as many units as the IPC worth of the area where they are placed - Additional IPCs may be bidded; these may be added to Germany's starting cash - The analogous rules apply for Japanese units, factories or IPCs - No German units or factories may be placed in Japanese areas (or in sea zones bordering Japanese areas) and vice versa The sum of the value of all bidded units (and IPCs) is the value of the bid.

[Panther]

What you quoted are the bidding rules of DAAK. Seems like FOE adopted them.
But they forgot the Part for AA revised:

2.4 Additional bidding rules for A&A revised edition
The lowest bid # will receive the axis powers. Up to 1/2 (rounded down in an odd # case) of the bid amount may be allocated in units placed pre-game. These units must be placed in a territory or Sea Zone where other troops of the same nationality already reside.
The remainder of this bid is allocated as cash amongst all friendly powers.
If Bid is negative, the lowest bid still gets Axis, but the Allied player recieves the bid and distribute it following the above rules.

Complete rules:
http://www.daak.de/hilfe/regeln.php3?sprache=e#Bid

[OctavianNT]

so can someone explain this to me in a ste by step format (example)
Step 1- do this and your oppent will do this
Step 2- whatever comes next
step 3- ect

[smo63]

Oct...

Well, you need to be careful when you ask a question like that? The reason being is that there is more than one way out there to bid. On liners, PBEM definitely have a different system than others.

As in an early thread by "series" he has his own way that, I am not sure who uses that method but bidding down never really made much sense.

I believe the bidding process started at GEN CON, before all the PBEM etc. at the FTF tournaments run by then TSR. There was a definite advantage in the second edition game to the Allies. So, to balance the game out, a bid was use to help the Axis out and make the game more even sided. This system worked wonders until PBEM came around and everyone started using their own way of bidding.

Now, the old way and the way we bid at GEN CON, up to this year was;

BIDDING:
The actual bid will be for a number of IPC’s that the Allies will grant, from the bank, the Axis before the start of the game. This number of IPC’s may be used to buy game pieces only! You may not save the money or use it for the purchase of Industrial Technology and/or Complexes. Once the bid number has been determined, the Axis will make their purchase and place all pieces on the game board in territories/sea zones in which either Germany or Japan occupy at the start of the game. German units may not be placed in Japan occupied territory/sea zones and vise versa. Also, units may not be placed in Neutral Countries. To determine who starts the bidding, one team will flip a coin, and the winner chooses whether to start the bidding or defer.

EXAMPLE OF BIDDING:
Team A vs. Team B: Team A wins the coin toss and elects to defer their bid. Team B starts the bidding at "5" IPC’s; next, Team A bids "8"; Team B bids "9"; Team A bids "12"; Team B stops the bidding at "12" and takes the Axis. Team B now has 12 imaginary IPC’s to purchase units and place them on the game board in countries, which are currently occupied, by friendly units before play. After placement of these units, the game then starts as usual. (Germany may have all the money, Japan may have all the money or you may split it between the two any way you want, but remember no Industrial Tech. rolls, and any money left over is gone.)

It has changed slightly and is now:

Bidding:
The actual bid will be for a number of IPC’s that the one side will grant, from the bank, to the other before the start of the game. This number of IPC’s may be used to buy game pieces only! You may not save the money or use it for the purchase of Industrial Technology and/or Complexes. Once the bid number has been determined, the side receiving the bid will make their purchase and place all pieces on the game board in territories/sea zones in which either side occupy at the start of the game. You may NOT mix the bid units of one country with units of a current allied country. Also, units may not be placed in Neutral Countries.

To determine who starts the bidding, both sides will flip rolls a dice, and the winner, the higher number, chooses whether to start the bidding or defer. Whoever starts the bid, must announce what side they wish to play (Axis or Allies) and issue a positive bid at that point (minimum 1IPC). If your opponent takes the bid at 1 IPC then obliviously, they wanted to play the other side and the 1 IPC is lost. If they choose to increase the bid, then the bidding will continue until one side accepts the bid IPC value and buys units accordingly.

(EXAMPLE OF BIDDING Team A vs. Team B: Team A wins the coin toss and elects to defer their bid. Team B starts the bidding and announces that they would like to be the Allies, hence, giving money to the Axis. They start the bid at "5" IPC’s; next, Team A bids "7"; Team B bids "8"; Team A stops the bidding at "8" and takes the Axis. Team A now has 8 imaginary IPC’s to purchase units and place them on the game board in countries, which are currently occupied, by allied, LIKE units before play. In the above scenario, that would be the Axis. After placement of these units, the game then starts as usual. Remember no Industrial Tech. rolls, and any money left over is gone.

This way bidding was intended to be. Just to balance out play for whatever side had the advantage and it helped in determining who would play what side in FTF Tournament play...

Now, it is like pin the tail on the donkey when you ask that question, "Could Someone Explain This To Me In Words A Really Stupid Person Could Understand?"


Peace,
GS:)

[Italian_Power]

Hidden bids? I think some clubs tried to eliminate that. It is a bit of a shock to an allied player to give a bid of 25, only to watch the german player put all her units on Ukrain for a quick hit and win gambit on Karelia early.

Does not make for a fun game :(

[2nd_Panzer]

I do not understand this half bid method. When you bid, bid for what you want to place. That is how I have often seen it.

[smo63]

Oct...

As for the bidding I describe above;

The driving force behind bidding, since it was derived in the early 90"s, is that since the Allies had a clear advantage, a very clear advantage, everyone wanted to play them, especially in tournament conditions. So, a bid system was installed to help determine who would play what side and with how much of an advantage. When bidding originally, the thought was to make it like an auction. Since, 99% of the time, when two players stepped to the table and they both wanted to play the Allies, They would bid for the Allies, giving IPC's to the Axis to buy units and place them before the start of play; hence, when an IPC value was reached that the other side was comfortable with, they would take it and that became the bid...

This even carried over to AA Europe and Pacific, but since these two games favored the Axis, the bid was just for the Axis instead of the Allies...

So, this, IMO as well as many others, balanced the game tremendously. Since then and over the years, many people that played AA but not in the FTF tourneys at Origins and GEN CON, where not as familiar with the system and made up their own scenario...hence the many different ways people understand the process. One just needs to make sure that they know, under what format, the bidding system is being played....there is truly no right or wrong way to bid, just some ways work better than others?

Hope this helps a little with understanding the bid process and the history...

Peace,
GS:)

[Mighty Airforce]

Hidden bids? I think some clubs tried to eliminate that. It is a bit of a shock to an allied player to give a bid of 25, only to watch the german player put all her units on Ukrain for a quick hit and win gambit on Karelia early.
Does not make for a fun game :(

I agree completely. A house rule I've played with follows a bid-down for Axis IPCs much like described already, with the following notes:

One piece per territory restriction. This prevents the situation outlined above. I think this is a fine rule, since allowing more units in one territory creates a significant change in a particular theatre. With a bid of 9, 3 German infantry changes the lay of the land quite a bit at the Ukraine/Caucasus border, maybe more than it did in the old version of the game. This changes the game as little as possible while still balancing it.

Bid dollars can be saved, distributed in any fassion among the powers, but all may be spent before the start of the game. I think saving a buck or two for one power or the other can allow different builds first round, and seems a fine use of a stray buck. I think making a power save half of the bid is not as useful, and tends to drive the bids up. This also changes the game as little as possible while still balancing it.

From my experience, I like this aproach quite a bit. My goal with the bid is to balance the game, while not altering it more than needed. If that's the case, I think this bid system does a better job than the others I've seen.