Help the allies win!

[Verite663]

First post, I'm a little nervous.
I'll just say that we're 3 experienced players, we play with the out-of-the-box rules, without tech and always until total victory.
Now since the advent of AAR4 we have played over 25 games and the allies have won maybe 2 games.

We have tried so many allied strategies and none of them works efficiently.
The problem in almost all our games is stoping Japan, each games played with a pacific fleet american were resolved by the slaughter of the american fleet and the laughter of the Japanese player taking moscow after a german softening of russians defences.

A couple of game we went KGF and it always end up with a mega powerfull Japan who can take back Berlin if needed with 12 tanks a turn build in moscow and caucasus.

Anyway, we are in dire need of allied strategy and just laugh at the thought of giving more cash to the axis in a bidding system, which would mean stronger axis...frightening.
I'm sure we're missing something with the allies even if my friends think we are just too good I wouldn't want to believe I'm better than 75% of the axis&allies community.

So I'd ask for a quick resumé of an allied strategy, thank you.

[axis_roll]

I'll just say that we're 3 experienced players, we play without the out-of-the-box rules
1). What rules ARE you playing under then, if not AH rules... need to know this to elaborate.

2). Is it 2 allied players against 1 axis player?

[Verite663]

Ok edited the first message as I meant WITH the out-of-the-box rules.
And we change teams everytime and sometimes add a novice or 2.
But the core is 3 the of us.

[TomJag3]

Quick Allied strategy for out-of-the-box rules:

Turn 1:
Russia: Build 5 Inf,1Art,1Arm. Attack West Russia with 1Arm,1Art,Inf from Russia, Leningrad, and 1 Inf from Archangel. Attack Ukraine with 2Fighters, 2Arm,1Art,3Inf. Set up dead zones in Belo,Lenin, and Ukraine. Move 1Arm to India, 2Inf to Persia, 2Inf to Sinkiang. Combine 6 inf at Bury. Move a couple more inf toward Sinkiang.
UK: If Germany hasn't built a fleet, use the air to sink the fleet in the Baltic. Build a factory in India. Sink the *** transport, I like to use the UK fleet from India without the fighter, landing the fighter in India. Build a fighter and a tank in UK. If there's no German fleet built on turn 1, invade Algeria, to be joined by the US. Pull Infantry in Middle East back toward India. If you use the CV and DD to sink the *** transport, leave your transport from India off FIC to block the southern *** fleet from reaching your ships.
US: Your Hawaii and West Coast fighters can reach Bury, setting up a shuttle to Russia that also blocks the Japs. If it looks like you can hold it, a factory in Sinkiang can work. Remember to keep the shuttle going. If the Japs build transports on the US side of their island, they're fodder for your fighters and bomber on your turn 1. If you don't build the factory in Sinkiang, a CV, fighter, and 2subs make a potent WCst fleet, bring up the sub from the south to joint the BB and transport.

US and UK need to build a fighter each turn to send to Russia to help them defend. Russia needs to use their infantry and fighters to maintain the dead zones between it and Germany. UK can build 3 units per turn in India, they should mostly be armor. If the US builds a factory in Sinkiang on turn 1, Russia will have to send a couple more infantry over to help defend it and on turn 2, after making their attacks, the fighters will need to go to Sinkiang to help defend it, along with other infantry. Don't let Germany overrun Africa, that's free IPC's. Russia needs to stall, building mostly infantry and a tank or two each turn, while waiting for the US to arrive. Russia should be able to maintain a 29 IPC income throughout the game, that's 1 tank and 8 infantry each turn. Add the Allied fighters getting shipped over and you have a decent defense. Building the Pacific Fleet will force the Japanese to build ships and the UK/Russia/US attacks on the Japs should eventually drive them off the mainland. Norway and Algeria are the keys against Germany. Norway is great for UK because units can shuttle from there to Russia, widening the front the Germans have to protect. Algeria is great for the US because they can reach it from the ECst.

[Verite663]

R1: Yes mostly but no tank to India and and habitually a 8 inf build.

Uk1:The IC in India has been proven wrong on too many occasions, the japs can take it whatever and it ruins british economy and put no pression on the germans which means they have a couple of turns without serious landing threat.
Sure it can be possible if the US build an IC in Sinkiang on US1 along with the fighters in BUR but once again The Japs will always take the ICs. And all this pression on the Japs just give too much space for the mighty germans and they're gonna roll on Russia easily.

One big problems with the allies is that our GER player will always keep most of his fighters in france and buy at least 1 every turn so no allied fleet is safe apart from zone 6, I think, which is the north-west zone of Great Britain.

Also in our games Russia can't make 29 ipcs as it is SBR by both Japan and GER each turn along with the land they loose in the northeast so they have about 22 and less from round3.

In our games the allies have time against them because when Moscow fall it's all over except if they can take it back with alot of troops. The turn Germany has enough pieces to go into west Russia and then forcing the Russians to abandon Caucasus, it's 2 turns away from defeat.

Thank you Jag for the input, we could try it anway.

[Guerrilla Guy]

If you do a combined attack on Japan (US, UK) Build both the Ssainking and Indian factory. Fortify India with 2 Inf (1 Trans-Jordan, Persia) and land 2 Russian Infantry from Kazakh SSR to Persia enroute to India. With Ssainking Move 2 Novorbisk troops in and land a US Fighter their T2 from Buryatia (from the stack). If you feel it is necessary to have a fighter their transfer the UK fleet fighter their and stick the Anlo-Egypt Fighter on India; In doing so you might want to sacrifice your UK fleet but considering your axis player's strategy of going more after the US and Russia I bet you will find it more of a hassle of dragging it along the coast to get to Britain or setting up with the US to do one-two punches against the Japanese fleet. Don't worry about losing Anglo-Egypt T1 the US can put the pressure on Algeria and with little effort win it back for you.

Just some ideas.

GG

[nlentz88]

Thank you Jag for the input, we could try it anway.

Indeed, I think you should try TomJag3's allied strat. It sounds pretty strong.

Here's something else you can try. During the first round hit Germany 4 or 5 times: W. Rus., Ukraine, Norway, Algeria, Anglo-Egypt (if taken G1). ICs in India & Sinkiang w/ Russian defense (ARM to Ind, 2 INF to Sinkiang). US Pacific fleet moves to Atlantic. Surrender Pacific to Japan (it's what, 4 IPCs?). USA sets up system of TRN to pump 6-8 land units into either Europe (Norway, Karelia) or Africa (Algeria), a.k.a. the "shuck-shuck." 5 Allied land units per turn plus air an accumulation of air power should be able to hold off Japan on the mainland, especially if he wants those juicy 4 IPCs in the Pacific. The UK shuttles troops to Europe (Norway, Karelia) while the US shuttles them to either Africa (Algeria) or Europe (Norway, Karelia). Russia continues to pressure Germany and receives, usually, 29 IPCs per turn (31 if you get lucky).

Try it, and let us know the result.

[admiral_yamoto]

infantry push with all the allies cept for US ;)

[AllWeNeedIsLove.]

Indeed, I think you should try TomJag3's allied strat. It sounds pretty strong.

Here's something else you can try. During the first round hit Germany 4 or 5 times: W. Rus., Ukraine, Norway, Algeria, Anglo-Egypt (if taken G1). ICs in India & Sinkiang w/ Russian defense (ARM to Ind, 2 INF to Sinkiang). US Pacific fleet moves to Atlantic. Surrender Pacific to Japan (it's what, 4 IPCs?). USA sets up system of TRN to pump 6-8 land units into either Europe (Norway, Karelia) or Africa (Algeria), a.k.a. the "shuck-shuck." 5 Allied land units per turn plus air an accumulation of air power should be able to hold off Japan on the mainland, especially if he wants those juicy 4 IPCs in the Pacific. The UK shuttles troops to Europe (Norway, Karelia) while the US shuttles them to either Africa (Algeria) or Europe (Norway, Karelia). Russia continues to pressure Germany and receives, usually, 29 IPCs per turn (31 if you get lucky).

Try it, and let us know the result.
the problem i see with your grand strategy is building asian ics and abandoning the pacific. japan will eventually overrun the 2ics if that is all they have to contend with. if you are going to abandon the pacific, adandon asia aswell(use hit and run away tactics)

[CrazyStraw]

Oy, lots of good advice in here. Lots of smart people.

I'd also recommend going and reading some of the Caspian Sub's papers. Their threads can be found in the Avalon Hill forums. The first two in particular should give you some analysis, though not the whole story.

Good luck.

[Verite663]

I don't see how that will stp the Germans from annahilating Russia.
Ok let's see what we have:

R1: Russia build 5 inf, 1 art and a tank, attack West Russia and strafe Ukraine leaving if everything goes as planned 1 fighter. Then moves the 6 inf. into BUR and a tank in India +2 inf in Persia. Collect 26 IPCs.

Ger1: Build 6 inf. 3 art. 1 fgt. Kills the Canada TRAN, then kill the Bs, then land 1 inf and 1 tnk on Egypt use 1 fgt from Balkans. Take EGY with at best 2 tnk. Take Karelia. Then the Ger player will moves his troops to create a DeadZ
in both ukraine and EstEur. Also Germany will move its fleet to threaten the British fleet with a sub blocking the BS. Collect 42 IPCs.

UK1: This is where it gets tough, I've never played the UK in 25 games but if I remember, this is what they've done in most recent defeat.
Build 1 Bmb keep 15 IPCs. Take back EGY with the Indian fleet and 2inf. from IND and 1 from Trans-jordan, the fighter and the bmb from GB (maybe this is where they start loosing). The guy who plays UK the most has decided it was worthless to defend India so he always retreat everything toward Africa to kick the Germans out of it. anyway, UK collect 30.

JP1: Well *** will build 2 TRAN and some ground troops, will always make Pearl Harbor and will take an undefended India and Sinkiang.
Some pillage and more murder = collect 35 IPCs

USA1: We tried building a fleet, we tried moving transport to take NOR and build IC there, we tried the IC in China, maybe we've been unlucky with them but they never won a war for us, they are always the retards which arrive too late.

Well that's the basic. In our games, the allies have a chance at victory but never enough to give a bid to the axis and if the whole community prove this to be the way to work it out, there's something we don't understand for sure.
I'll try the strategies mentionned above, we've even decided to play a completely objective game where we'll not try to win but try to find a way for the allies to be competitive.

Thanx for the advices, keep em coming.

[TomJag3]

UK and US strategy needs to change. The bomber's a bad buy for the UK on T1. A&A is a game where lots of cheap units are far better than a few expenive ones.

[Guerrilla Guy]

alright first problem:

No Coordination. The Allies got to set priorities up to allow maximum damage punches at the axis. By taking back Africa with the British they are just helping themselves (and at that very lightly) and breaking any structure of Defense in the Asian theatre.

Second Problem:

Purchases. Why would you buy a Bomber with Britain? To take out a German Fleet? To SBR? it serves no First couple turn purpose. Why save IPC's? you need units on the board to fight a war, especially early game(unless you have nothing useful to buy). You aren't going to be building some massive fleet or other big project that would require hording your cash. I would rather spend it on building up your Transport fleet in Home waters to prey eat away at any German fighters who dare strafe that BB!

Here is what I propose you do:

Russia: Buy 5 Infantry, 1 Art, 1 Arm or 8 Infantry depending on How agressive you are (both will work).
Attack West Russia, and Ukraine taking both. If the Germans get a direct foothold to Caucasus they can blitz up you ally faster then you can kick out troops to cover. Yeah you might lose Armor but they will be useless to you anyway once Germany has 5 their next turn and Troops to cover them. I came up with this one Strategy that seemed unbeatable that I dubbed the "Pincer" involving a first Turn takeover of Keraila with Armor and Infantry and a Stockpile of Fighters and Infantry on Ukraine. The Russians couldn't muster enough troops to knockout fodder sitting behind 3-4 Fighters until a guy pointed out to me that if the Russians took Ukraine first Turn it forced a deadzone that I couldn't compete with. I almost would rather take Ukraine over West Russia anyday. But since both are possible...

Novorbisk to Ssainking Troops to Persia and Stockpile in Buryatia. Sub to protect British fleet

btw, how can Japan take Ssainking first turn? I take it you mean China.

Britain. You are not sunk. You still have a home fleet you can fortify which I would do with one Transport. all you need to keep a weary Luftwaffe away. Purchases: 1 IC(India) 1 Transport, Save 7.

Sink the Baltic fleet with 2 Fighters and a Bomber. Consolidate Indian holding already mentioned. Use your Sub to hit the Japanese sub in Solomons and move your transport to be of assistance to India if Necessary. Also can be used as a distraction for Japanese fighters. Attack the Japanese Transport with the Destroyer. You could move the AC with it to make a bigger target for J1 and draw off firepower but I would personally combine it with the Transport down in SZ36 ? (believe that is the one the Japanese cannot attack with Shipping.)

US: Ok assuming you lost Pearl and China average the Japanese should have a BB and an AC with 1-2 Fighters on it (assuming they lost the DD and Sub). So Purchase wise if you think they will go aggressive Paciific you must build a supply line that will drain them or KGF. With FOJ(Focus on Japan) Build an AC, 2 Transports, 1 Fighter. Attack the Japanese fleet with 2 Fighters, 1 Bomber, 1 BB, 1 Transport vs. 1 BB, 1 AC, 1 Fighter (usually what I am up against). you should be able to kill them with the loss of a hit on your BB a Transport and A fighter maybe 2. fly the other Fighter to Buryatia and hold that stack or fly on to Ssainking. If 1 British fighter remains from Baltic fly it to Russia T2 and hold with that while a Russian Fighter goes to Ssainking. Take Algeria with available troops and sink Canadian Sub with Fighter from EUS, landing in Britain to transfer to Eastern front duties T2. With FOJ Use your Carrier's Fighter as the punch using Infantry from Central and Western to Go Island Hopping. Hit Solomons First giving yourself a dropoff point and then East Indies and Berneo to really Drain cash. This is where saving the British Transport and AC comes in giving you more fodder and defensive number. plus if one Carrier goes down you always have the other. Japan would now to pump out Fodder units to sink such a fleet reducing the power of a Moscow drive in. If you feel it is necessary wait another turn before starting to drive into the Pacific but max out both productions solely on that.

If you want to do KGF build 1 AC, 1 Fighter, 1 Transport, 1 Armor. The main Idea on this one is to setup a double pump into Britain or Africa(which when secure moves on To Western Europe) using a DD as cover for one fleet shucking it and then moving a second fleet with the Fighter to do an attack. You know the general idea.

Guess that is my Strat ramble for now hope it helps.

GG

[psychotropic]

alot of good advice. I hope to get to play each and every one of you some day. Not much more to offer from a strategic perspective. It sounds to me like you guys have a state of learned helplessness when it comes to playing the allies. "It's no use... pull back.." and that sort. The only advice I can offer is to make yourself realize that the allies have the advantage and should win. Then get out there and make it happen.

[Verite663]

Sure the bomber was bad for UK and keeping the the 15 ICPs too, it was just last game though and it was the worst defeat as Germany took Moscow by turn 5...hehe

These advices seems really solid though, I'll try them for sure.

Next game, I'll try the stand in BURY with the 6 russians INF and the american fighters along with the stand in IND letting the americans take back africa.

I'll be back with some result by next week, thank you guys.

[Guerrilla Guy]

KK Cool... Keep us posted so we can celebrate the liberation of Berlin! ;) btw If I were you I would try the FOJ strat I posted...

GG

[steben]

Too much of this will result in counter strategies for axis-lovers like me.
I already started with cancelling Africa, moderating the russian front while giving priority to a baltic fleet.
My GER1 buys:
1 fighter, 1 sub, 3 armor, 3 inf
OR
2 subs, 4 armor, 2 inf (better)

GER1 attacks:
-Sub to UK fleet with Norway fighter, Germany bomber.
-Transport in baltic to Karelia with 2 inf.
-Transport in south europe to Ukraine or Caucasus with 1Inf and 1art.
-ground unit for attacks on Karelia and ukraine/caucasus/west russia according to early russian moves.

-f**k africa, concentrate troops in libya, US will crush algeria anyway.

[TomJag3]

LOL... that'll start us Allies lovers to start coming up with counters to your Axis counter-strategies!!!
:-)

[Maj.Striker]

-f**k africa, concentrate troops in libya, US will crush algeria anyway.

I can understand your reasoning there but there's no reason in trying to suck in a few extra IPCs while you can. I'm having problems defeating a skilled USSR opponent with Germany. My most successful efforts involved an IPC in the Ukraine in G1 but if you lose Ukraine in round 1 then you can't build so it's a bit of chance.

[Verite663]

But if you don't attack EGY on G1, you let UK keep a tank and a fighter for India's defence, which is bad for Japan.

[admiral_yamoto]

and buy lots of infantry! sure its cheap, but it works ;)
for navy, buy lots of subs. in this game, quantity is much better than quality

[Guerrilla Guy]

after playing about 6 rounds using what your axis player usually does and what I would do here is a couple revisions to what I stated:

British AC India goes to SZ East of Kenya out of the range of everything. Transport will get knocked out but you can build another one and you have the Australian one(which should stay put until it can be reunited with the British Naval force in the Far East). Russian Fighters go to Caucasus. Americans should not build anything for Africa at the start and the couple of turns after. British home fleet (1 BB, 2 Transports possibly more) can land a fighting force to retake Africa if Necessary. T2 Build the Ssainking Factory if your not threatened and have 5 Allied units in the far East at Turn not including the russian troops coming in. If Buryatia Falls deadzone it and slowly build that stack up. Mainly focus with Britain and America on utilizing your land force to keep Japan Producing to keep getting ready to Invade and as Fast as possible take the "11 IPC Triangle". Germany can be SBR'd into oblivion but only after you have secured a holding in the Pacific (possibly build T3 for use T4?) That should slow them down. Africa can always be rescued with a Transport or 2 from India as well.

bunch of thoughts...


GG

[Guerrilla Guy]

So Veritas how did the game go?