non-combat moves through a submerged sub

[AllWeNeedIsLove.]

1. if a defensive axis sub, submerges in combat, can an allied naval unit move through the submerged sub in non-combat?

does it make a difference if the allied unit is a destroyer?
this situation has come up in my lowluck aare 3.0 game with anton

2.in another game i had an even more complex situation.

an axis naval unit is in sza and wants to attack szc. but to go from a to c it must travel through szb. szb has an allied sub in it. can the axis player declare an attack on szc?

thus, forcing the allied player to either submerge the sub and allow an attack on szc or decide not to submerge and fight in szb.
does it make a difference if the axis naval unit is a destroyer?

[pagan]

1. if a defensive axis sub, submerges in combat, can an allied naval unit move through the submerged sub in non-combat?

does it make a difference if the allied unit is a destroyer?
this situation has come up in my lowluck aare 3.0 game with anton

I asked this question before and this is what I got (this also could only be concerning AARe):
--the naval unit in question is moving during non-combat movement phase, and in this there are no checks for detection of 'submerged' subs. (following question -- no movement into sz that has a 'non-submerged' sub, since that would be combat.)


2.in another game i had an even more complex situation.

an axis naval unit is in szA and wants to attack szC. but to go from A to C it must travel through szB. szB has an allied sub in it. can the axis player declare an attack on szC?

thus, forcing the allied player to either submerge the sub and allow an attack on szc or decide not to submerge and fight in szb.
does it make a difference if the axis naval unit is a destroyer?

--NO. sub blocking is part of the game and CJ wants to keep it that way.

-- the only other thing here is that a SUB could pass through szB, and attack into szC .....IFF a DD in szB detects the SS, then the SS is stuck in szB combat

[AxisRoll]

If you forced a sub to submerge during combat movement, yes you can move thru in non-combat. the sub doesnt come up till the end of non-combat.

[DocD]

I will have to take a look at the rules to be "right-on", but I believe Roll is correct here.

A submerged sub can be ignored, and if it doesn't come up til the end of non-combat, then it can be ignored "during" non-combat.

[AllWeNeedIsLove.]

thanks for the answers guys.

i would prefer subs not be able to block sea lanes. it would be best if a sub had to decide to stay in battle to block sz movement or submerge and let enemy naval units pass through.

more decisions better game.

[Stephen]

2.in another game i had an even more complex situation.

an axis naval unit is in sza and wants to attack szc. but to go from a to c it must travel through szb. szb has an allied sub in it. can the axis player declare an attack on szc?

thus, forcing the allied player to either submerge the sub and allow an attack on szc or decide not to submerge and fight in szb.
does it make a difference if the axis naval unit is a destroyer?
In AARe a sub can move through a hostile SZ and has to face a DD detection roll from each DD. If there are no DDs, there is no detection roll and the sub can move through the SZ unimpeded.

That's as far as I understand the rule. Subs can travel through enemy ships and an enemy sub should be no different.

[AllWeNeedIsLove.]

That's as far as I understand the rule. Subs can travel through enemy ships and an enemy sub should be no different.
that would make sense and i would like the rule to be this way but every one else says different.

[Stephen]

From AARe 3.0: http://boards.avalonhill.com/showpost.php?p=46279&postcount=1 (http://http://boards.avalonhill.com/showpost.php?p=46279&postcount=1)

-Also, SUBs may pass through a SZ containing Enemy Naval Units, INCLUDING Destroyers. This must occur during the Combat Phase and the opposing player gets 1 roll @ 3 for each DD to detect the SUBs. If "Detected", combat resumes in that SZ. If "Undetected", the SUBs may pass through. The second SZ may be friendly, empty, or hostile (the player must have declared his intent to move into the second SZ at the start of combat)

[AllWeNeedIsLove.]

stephen you might not understand which rule i would like changed. if a battleship wants to pass a through a sz containing an enemy sub, i think the sub should have to decide to 1. fight the battleship and block its path or 2. remain undetected and let the battleship pass through the sz

[Stephen]

stephen you might not understand which rule i would like changed. if a battleship wants to pass a through a sz containing an enemy sub, i think the sub should have to decide to 1. fight the battleship and block its path or 2. remain undetected and let the battleship pass through the sz
Gotcha (I had the impression I was missing something but couldn't quite put my finger on it.
This could have an impact on convoy raids: a way to force subs to submerge without having to engage the sub (in the case of a BB).
Not sure how I feel on this one, I'll wait to see what people say before deciding whether this would be an improvement in naval warfare.

[DocD]

Yeah, I see what you are guys are saying....I don't know how I feel about this one either.

Seems ok, but frankly I'm tired of adding rules to AARe. I guess, I'm for leaving things as is.

Has anybody gotten in a full playtest of AARe 3.0 rules yet? Does anybody have any feedback on it yet?

[TomJag3]

I'm against it. The sub is powerful enough without adding to its abilities. If abilities keep getting added to subs, we'll have to increase the IPC cost to 20. You'd think the blasted things were nuclear powered and armed with missles.

I'm against adding rules that add to the time element. If you let a sub decide whether to submerge or not during movement, it adds to the length of email games in addition to giving an advantaged unit even more abilities.

[cousin_joe]

I'm against it. The sub is powerful enough without adding to its abilities. If abilities keep getting added to subs, we'll have to increase the IPC cost to 20. You'd think the blasted things were nuclear powered and armed with missles.

I'm against adding rules that add to the time element. If you let a sub decide whether to submerge or not during movement, it adds to the length of email games in addition to giving an advantaged unit even more abilities.

This is one major reason the SUBs stay as they are. The other is that not letting SUBs serve as "pickets" makes them much less useful. With the change to transports, I would say the naval units are fairly balanced now as is.

[cousin_joe]

1. if a defensive axis sub, submerges in combat, can an allied naval unit move through the submerged sub in non-combat?

Yes, as pagan says, the SUB does not resurface until non-combat


does it make a difference if the allied unit is a destroyer?
this situation has come up in my lowluck aare 3.0 game with anton

There is no difference.

2.in another game i had an even more complex situation.

an axis naval unit is in sza and wants to attack szc. but to go from a to c it must travel through szb. szb has an allied sub in it. can the axis player declare an attack on szc?

thus, forcing the allied player to either submerge the sub and allow an attack on szc or decide not to submerge and fight in szb.
does it make a difference if the axis naval unit is a destroyer?

Since the SUB can pass through any SZ (even with enemy naval units), yes, it can attack SZC.

Now, if there is a DD in SZB, the SUB can still pass through (not in AH/LHTR though), but must evade detection by the DD. If detected, it must fight in that SZ. If undetected, it will fight in SZC. It cannot fight in both. In this case, the DD does not have an option whether it will attempt to detect or not, it just does (to simplify e-mail play)

[AllWeNeedIsLove.]

I'm against it. The sub is powerful enough without adding to its abilities. If abilities keep getting added to subs, we'll have to increase the IPC cost to 20. You'd think the blasted things were nuclear powered and armed with missles.

I'm against adding rules that add to the time element. If you let a sub decide whether to submerge or not during movement, it adds to the length of email games in addition to giving an advantaged unit even more abilities.
actually the rule that i would like to see added would make the sub less effective, not more. just slightly less not a huge impact on the game but it does make the defensive sub owners make another decision. and i like making decisions

[AllWeNeedIsLove.]

Has anybody gotten in a full playtest of AARe 3.0 rules yet? Does anybody have any feedback on it yet?
i have yet to finish a game. i have 3games going right now against;
vollick, round 3, regular dice
aibrahim, round 3, lowluck
anton, round 4, lowluck

2 games have had bids of 0ipc and the other has a bid of 2ipc. the games are all very even. however regular dice games dont prove much unless thier is a very large sample of games. if this proves to be the trend and games are very even hopfully we could see a bid system were you have to specify if you are bidding for the axis or the allies.

[AxisRoll]

where are the results now. In aarE 3.0 who is winning more?

To me, it is a even draw. depends on strategy and dice.

[DocD]

I would agree with you Roll. Even though the end came swiftly for me in the tourney, at one point I was actually winning. In the end I just didn't fully implement my strategy.