AH has gone collectible

[maelic001]

I certainly hope this isn't a sign of things to come. :(

http://www.gamingreport.com/article.php?sid=17001&mode=thread&order=0

p.s. I know Stratego Legends was technically collectible as well, but it didn't seem as blatently money grubbing as this...

[RuHurt]

I don't think it's that bad; at least they're sort of getting back to wargames. Better than Monsters Menace America collectibles...:rolleyes: ;)

[Yoper]

A mixture of Memoir '44 and ASL?

I see a problem (well, many, but let's stick to one) with the idea of collectible parts from the stand point of people being more caught up in finding the rare Pvt. Ryan piece instead of talking about the strategies of the game.

Another example of the monolith being behind the power curve.

Craig

[TrimChris]

I actually see a lot of A&A fans going ga-ga over this. I generally avoid collectibles but if the sculpts are really good...

[V-Disc]

I'm adopting a "wait & see" attitude on these. My gut reaction is mildly excited. This could be something that grabs my interest; or maybe not.

[Y2UAsk]

I was in on some of the playtesting, and I can state that it's a good wargame. It's one of those games that is deceptively simple. Your first impression is, "this is too simple to be a good wargame." But once I got out of thinking in Panzerblitz/ASL mode and started playing AAM on its own terms, I realized that it's a pretty good wargame. We had some down-and-dirty nail-biter fights with a surprising amount of tactical nuance. It isn't ASL*, or even Panzerblitz**, but it's a good wargame. I haven't seen any finished pieces yet, but if they're as good as the D&D and SW minis, they'll light people up.

Steve

* and ASL has more Hollywood in it than most people want to admit
** IMO, still one of the better tactical simulations out there

[Carlo]

AAAGGGGH! Collectibles! I'm not going to buy it if it's like Mage Knight or those things that you have to buy in closed random boosters, they already have sucked too much money from me.
However, I will be very interested in this game if it will be sold like Warhammer.

[Sinister]

AAAGGGGH! Collectibles! I'm not going to buy it if it's like Mage Knight or those things that you have to buy in closed random boosters, they already have sucked too much money from me.
However, I will be very interested in this game if it will be sold like Warhammer.

Well Said!!!!

If everybox is packaged the same it will at least mean that the person that goes out an buys $50 bucks worth won't be beaten all the time buy the guy who spent $500 and can field 25 rare units, since each box could packaged the same way.

Warhammer is a VERY successful game and because it doesn't create random rare units and random packaging it creates a level playing ground. Rippers from great white games is another game that is collectible and doesn't suffer from the rare or common debacle.

[maelic001]

"The Base Set Starter Pack Contains:
•12 collectable miniatures based on battlefield units of World War II
-tanks, antitank guns, commanders, infantry units, and 1 random rare
-miniatures are prepainted, fully assembled, and made of durable plastic
•Full-color game stat cards
•4 double-sided, full-color battle mats
•10 six-sided dice
•Rulebook
•Set checklist

The Base Set Booster Pack Contains:
•9 randomized, prepainted, durable plastic miniatures
•Full-color game stat cards
•Set checklist
(Rules not included in booster.)"

Sounds very much like Heroclix/Mage Knight distribution...

[Sinister]

LOL,

Well then let's the massive scale buying begin!!!! The rare sargeant fury and his howling commandos are waiting!!!!! Personally I might have to get a general patton mini and slap around some troops!!!

Regardless of how you feel about collectibles this will be huge for AH.

[Da Black Gobo]

Nothing turns off historical gamers more than the word collectible. And most players that play collectible games will not touch anything with the word historical attached to it. (I am refering to minitature gamers). So I think it is a marriage made in hell, and is doomed before it is released as a failure.


Note, they may get a some sales from miniature gamers that use the models for thier own games, as long as the stats are not on the base.

[maelic001]

Note, they may get a some sales from miniature gamers that use the models for thier own games, as long as the stats are not on the base.

They do mention "full-color game stat cards" so my guess would be that the figures will be more like Heroscape's with seperate stats.

[TrimChris]

Nothing turns off historical gamers more than the word collectible. And most players that play collectible games will not touch anything with the word historical attached to it. (I am refering to minitature gamers). So I think it is a marriage made in hell, and is doomed before it is released as a failure.


Note, they may get a some sales from miniature gamers that use the models for thier own games, as long as the stats are not on the base.

The stats are on cards for the WotC SW collectible minis.

The game sonds like it will be cheap enough to make that the profit margins will be high. It will probably sell ok, but not as mch as SW or D&D minis.

[Sinister]

The stats are on cards for the WotC SW collectible minis.

The game sonds like it will be cheap enough to make that the profit margins will be high. It will probably sell ok, but not as mch as SW or D&D minis.


I would agree a little less than SW but then SW appeals to alot more people. Still as much as I'm not a collectible person, all of us are wondering what it plays like. And it will sell big in the year of no A&A boardgames.

[TrimChris]

I would agree a little less than SW but then SW appeals to alot more people. Still as much as I'm not a collectible person, all of us are wondering what it plays like. And it will sell big in the year of no A&A boardgames.

Does that mean we get a new A&A boardgame next year?

[Sinister]

I think it's only fair. And it should be A&A WWI

[MasterHawk]

The Base Set Booster Pack Contains:
•9 randomized, prepainted, durable plastic miniatures
•Full-color game stat cards
•Set checklist
(Rules not included in booster.)"

If the booster costs about 1-3 dollars, I would probably invest in some way. However, the "prepainted" and "durable" adjectives make me doubt that is the case.

Also, I would like to point out how innacurate this game is going to be. Didn't infantry make up the majority of an army? If everything is random, unless 80% of the units are different infantry and only 20% are vehicles, I doubt we will see accuracy.

Damn trading games, anyway. I'd rather buy a full game then pieces of a game which I will need friends to invest in to enjoy.

*Sigh*

When I heard "A&A Minis", I thought some Japanese tanks would be involved in some way.

[MasterHawk]

I think it's only fair. And it should be A&A WWI

I wouldn't play that. I would much rather have an expansion, adding new excitement to Revised.

[Sinister]

I wouldn't play that. I would much rather have an expansion, adding new excitement to Revised.


Um...I'm not sure how you would do that unless you are introducing new componets and thus changing all the rules again. *sigh*

The minis won't be historical acurate but I think it will be squad based combat quick and easy.

[MasterHawk]

Um...I'm not sure how you would do that unless you are introducing new componets and thus changing all the rules again. *sigh*

It doesn't have to change the rules in any major ways. Maybe give us techs that develop all new units. There are a lot of things that can be done.

[Sinister]

I disagree. There seems to be alot of rules that are interdependant on each other in A&A. I think a viable expansion would have to include new units or a new board which people would be against. Otherwise is just new rules.

It seems every A&A gamer wants the game to be as balanced as possible and introducing new units would screw with that all over again.

What could be introduced is commander or a political system.

[TrimChris]

I think it's only fair. And it should be A&A WWI

I'd prefer a Med game or D-Day type game at another battle.

[MasterHawk]

I'd prefer a Med game or D-Day type game at another battle.

I'd prefer anything over WWI...

[DocD]

Well, I would check it out that's for sure and maybe that's what AH is counting on....gamers, new and old picking up a box and reading the back of it.

I personally don't mind buying a collectible game, as some of the gaming pieces can be quite cool, but of course the spending money is way more of a factor with these types of games than a traditional board game, IMO.

I will await the Minis arrival, but would have preferred to have seen a REMAKE OF SOME TRADITIONAL GAME.....anyway, let's see what the guns of August bring.

[qmp]

I'll probably read the back of the box too. But my days of buying random pieces in boosters are over. If it interests me, I'll be keeping an eye out on ebay.

[maelic001]

If the booster costs about 1-3 dollars, I would probably invest in some way. However, the "prepainted" and "durable" adjectives make me doubt that is the case

"$24.99 (MSRP) - Starter
$14.99 (MSRP) - Booster"

Definitely NOT 1-3 dollars...

[MasterHawk]

"$24.99 (MSRP) - Starter
$14.99 (MSRP) - Booster"

Definitely NOT 1-3 dollars...

Rip. Off.

For 24.99 I could almost get a real A&A game!

[qmp]

"$24.99 (MSRP) - Starter
$14.99 (MSRP) - Booster"

Definitely NOT 1-3 dollars...


I wonder if this will be one of those games where, in the "starter" the pieces will be random and will not be enough forces to field a proper unit...

"Look, I got 4 Waffen-SS squads, an American half-track, a vickers machine gun nest, a Russian Cossack, and 3 Japanese Captains!!!"

Perhaps you and 4 or 5 people in your gaming group will need to purchase starters so that you can trade back and forth. Assuming everybody will want to field a different nation.

Personally, I hate that.

[maelic001]

I wonder if this will be one of those games where, in the "starter" the pieces will be random and will not be enough forces to field a proper unit...


"The Base Set Starter Pack Contains:
•12 collectable miniatures based on battlefield units of World War II
-tanks, antitank guns, commanders, infantry units, and 1 random rare"

At least one of the starter set figures will be random...

[boylermaker]

I must say the biggest turn-off for me is the people I know who are apt to play the Warhammeresque game this sounds like. I certainly don't want to play with them, and there is no way my Risk buddies will go for this. Also, this seems like a bit of a budget breaker to me, and I don't think I have the IPC's necessary to get enough units to have fun. Ah well. Sounds like another Stratego Legends, so I don't have to care too much.

[xxstefanx]

I'd prefer anything over WWI...

Interesting!
Why do you "hate" WWI that much?
Did your grandpa die in it? Are you not familiar enough with it? Do you think it is too static to be exciting?

What is the reason behind your absolute position?

xxstefanx

[vogless]

I want to see some Pictures. Also, I'm concerned about the price. It appears that we'll be getting the same amount of minis per box as the D&D minis. However, those are 28mm, these are 15mm. I'd like to know why the price is the same for both. I would also like to see advanced rules at some point, taking this game from a collectable mini game into a wargame with pre painted pieces.

[pellulo]

The problem about a WWI game, is such a lack of information about it (on the History Channel there is probable more about rare WWII Air Transports, than the whole subject of WWI). A better educated & knowable wargamming public who knew/learn something about the great war, could, for instance, see a need for a decent, maybe a la Axis & Allies WWI type game.

The map alone of Europe opens up interesting possibilities of gamming, see, maps at History channel site.

If there was no interest in a WWI game, why does the thread about a WWI game, has already many thousands of hits (please I know people are smart enough to know it is about WWI, not WWII), thanks, Pellulo

[Moderator Sinister]

I must say the biggest turn-off for me is the people I know who are apt to play the Warhammeresque game this sounds like. I certainly don't want to play with them, and there is no way my Risk buddies will go for this. Also, this seems like a bit of a budget breaker to me, and I don't think I have the IPC's necessary to get enough units to have fun. Ah well. Sounds like another Stratego Legends, so I don't have to care too much.

This game will be nothing like warhammer. Wahammer rulebook is over 200+ pages. I'm sure the rule book for this will be very light. Warhammer also does not have random packaging of units. You purchase what you want for you army. This game appears as if some units will be random. The stat cards, and the way it's packaged would make one beleive that they have imported the basic star wars rules and then changed them to fit the WWII theme.

[Der Panzinator]

I actually like the idea of this game. :D

I have been getting hooked on miniatures games for quite some time now. I think that for those of us how have played A&A for years the biggest draw of the game is the little plastic pieces. Am I right?
What better logical progression then to get into better detailed figures? I know I have started building a collection of 6mm micro armour and they are fantastic!

A few things of note here for why Avalon Hill is doing this.

1. The biggest of course is that AH is now Wizards of the Coast. Take a look at the main product line-up of WoTC. Hero-Clix, Mage Knights, Star Wars, Mechwarrior, Pirates of the Spanish Main. These are all miniatures based games. They sell like crazy to the younger crowd who want a fast playing game with a lot of eye candy. They have a marketing strategy of selling booster packs to suck you into buying more, more, more... (I know cause I've got a big box of Mechwarriors. :rolleyes: Which are actually a lot of fun!)

2. If you have been to any game conventions lately you will find out what is very popular these days. Miniatures.
One in particular is Flames of War. This is a miniatures wargame that uses 15mm (note the scale) models of WWII vehicles and infantry. It is very popular right now and if you go to a game store you will find that the game pieces are very well stocked. The stores enter into a very well defined contract on what will be stocked and how much to be able to sell this stuff. To get an idea of the cost it is about $9.00 U.S. to buy a single 15mm tank for FOW. So for 12 plastic pieces for A&AM at 24.99 you are getting a bargain.

3. AH is riding the A&A name for all its worth lately. This is an established game that is recognizable by old and young gamers. I think they are hoping to get the young gamers with the tried and true system they have in place for many of their existing games while they try to pull in some of the older gamers who have played A&A for years and will buy anything with the Axis & Allies name on it.



Here is what you can probably expect from this new game.

1. It will definitely be a collectible game that you will have no control over what you get when you buy a booster pack. None of the existing WoTC games allow you to buy pre-set boosters. The starter pack will likely have some German forces and probably US forces enough to whet the appetite and allow you to play a small game.
The one thing to note however is that all of the current games also have websites where you can go and buy almost any individual units you want. Including rares for a very hefty price at times. I have a Mech that I bought in a booster pack that goes for about $65.00. I paid about $8.00 for the booster pack with 1 mech, 2 vehicles, and 4 infantry.

2. Speaking of Mechwarrior... You can pretty much assume that this game will be very much like Mechwarrior since it is already a game with infantry, tanks, artillery, APC's, aircraft, etc... And of course mechs. Which won't be included with A&A.
It looks like it will come with a hex board that will probably be interchangeble and allow different scenarios. If you have played Memoir 44 you will get an idea of how a miniatures game can be designed to be played on a game board. Mechwarrior actually requires players to create their own battlefields which is whole world unto itself. Which I am also familiar with now after making styrofoam hills, paper buildings, and felt roads... :o

3. The pieces will be of exceptional quality. For those of you who have never seen a pre-painted game miniature you will be blown away. You will never again be quite as excited about the little plastic A&A tanks anymore...
The pieces may be clickable, which means that as something gets hit you rotate the base and a small window shows the new attack, defence, armor values, etc... They may decide to just let the pieces get eliminated with one shot and provide cards for each unit that holds all of the data.
I'm sure that they will be on par with Mechwarrior or HeroClix. If you want to see what these look like go to the Wizkids website:
http://www.wizkidsgames.com/wk_home.asp

4. The rules will be fairly simple. As Steve has already pointed out they are not PanzerBlitz or ASL. Neither is any of the other lineup from WoTC. This game will be marketed just like all the others. If you want to get an idea of how the rules are generally designed go to the above link to Wizkids and download some of the rules they have posted for the exisiting line-up. While they can appear simple on the surface they do make for good games.


Enough rambling for now. I'm excited about the new game and can't wait to get a starter pack and a few boosters once it comes out. :D

[Der Panzinator]

Hey, I'm not sure why the info about 12 pieces in the starter set came from but this is on the AH homepage article about the game:

Base Set, featuring 48 soldiers and vehicles from WWII plus detailed hex maps of terrain representing the battlefields of Europe, will be first shown to the public at the Gencon game convention in Indianapolis this August and is set to hit store shelves the following week. A 48-figure expansion, bringing additional vehicles and troops into combat, will follow in December. More expansions are planned through 2006.

48 figures!!! That is not bad at all for 15mm in one box. Wonder what the cost will be. Now I can't tell if they are including all 48 and then one 48 fig expansion or if that is just the total number of different figures that will be available to the boosters... :confused:

[maelic001]

There's 48 figures total to collect in the base set, with another 48 figures to collect in a later expansion. There will only be 12 figures in the starter pack ($24.99 MSRP) and 9 figures per booster pack ($14.99 MSRP).

[Der Panzinator]

Yep, thats what I thought. Thanks for clarifying.

[fenyan]

Der Panzinator, apologies for snipping out a lot of your original post as I make a few comments:

Take a look at the main product line-up of WoTC. Hero-Clix, Mage Knights, Star Wars, Mechwarrior, Pirates of the Spanish Main.

Most of these are WizKids games, no?


One in particular is Flames of War. This is a miniatures wargame that uses 15mm (note the scale) models of WWII vehicles and infantry. It is very popular right now and if you go to a game store you will find that the game pieces are very well stocked. The stores enter into a very well defined contract on what will be stocked and how much to be able to sell this stuff. To get an idea of the cost it is about $9.00 U.S. to buy a single 15mm tank for FOW. So for 12 plastic pieces for A&AM at 24.99 you are getting a bargain.

I can't really say it's a bargain as the $14.99 booster price may get you only one tank? Whereas in Flames of War (I don't play it but was looking at their display stand today, because I was thinking about the Axis & Allies press release) you know what you're getting. And surely infantry in FOW are cheaper than $9 apiece? The main difference for me is that A&A Minis will come painted. And the selling point will be a very good rules set that feels very "authentic."

2. Speaking of Mechwarrior... You can pretty much assume that this game will be very much like Mechwarrior since it is already a game with infantry, tanks, artillery, APC's, aircraft, etc...

I don't mind a simple elegant game but I can only hope that the depth of play of A&A minis is as good as MechWarrior, which I still play despite its collectibility. I do find myself buying more MW singles from 3rd-party retailers and fewer boosters.

Anyhow I'm sure most of us hope your expectations about A&A minis are met.

[questioneer]

One word about collectibles- (Edited) :mad:

[Yoper]

Gay as in happy?

Or gay as in homosexual?

You need to better explain yourself. That is if you wish to get you coffee mug back!;)

Craig

[Moderator Sinister]

The use of the the word GAY to describe something as dumb and/or stupid is against the code of conduct as it can be taken as offensive by some. Please refrain from using this word and please resume topic.

Thanks!

[Der Panzinator]

Most of these are WizKids games, no?


Well actually all of the games I had mentioned are Wizkids.
You know I always thought that Wizards of the Coast was the parent company of Wizkids... :rolleyes:
Guess I'll put away the hooka pipe now. ;)

Okay so disregard most everything I said...:eek:

[Da Black Gobo]

Collectible:A. Fools parted from thier money.,B. to money grub at the expensive of the gullable,C. to entice the weak willed.

[Mokona]

D&D Miniatures and Star Wars Miniatures are very similar squad (or smaller) level games. The Star Wars mini rules are much easier than those of Dungeon & Dragons minis. In my experience the quality (and variety) of both D&D and Star Wars figures have been getting progressively better with each new release. The two existing miniatures games by Wizards of the Coast use square grids for play so Axis & Allies Miniatures' hex-based play will be new.

When D&D figures were first announced there was a huge outcry against random miniatures because roleplaying gamers wanted to get "exactly" the figure they wanted. Two things happened after the D&D figures actually went on sale. 1) Ebay sellers provide every single figure a player could ever want in non-random fashion (prices vary widely). 2) Many people decided that random figures didn't bother them as much as they had speculated. Will this be the case for A&A...only time will tell. These complaints have come and gone before and as the song says, there is nothing new under the sun.

I play the D&D game a lot more than I play Star Wars so I can only guess about A&A based on my experience with WotC products. The bulk of the figures used in a skirmish (the term for a single "match" in D&D Miniatures) are not rares. Based on my history I doubt that he who spends the most will win the most often.

[TrimChris]

Collectible:A. Fools parted from thier money.,B. to money grub at the expensive of the gullable,C. to entice the weak willed.

Denies your kids an inheritance. Woot!

[Moderator Sinister]

Based on my history I doubt that he who spends the most will win the most often.

Welcome to the Boards!!! Hope you check every thing out!

I disagree on your comments. Maybe your games the difference isn't that much (in money spent) but when one person spend $500 on minis and one $40. That person, who spent $500, has a distinct advantage IMO. He has at his disposal more minis to sub in and out to give him the advantage from game to game. This is doubly true in the case of expansion collectibles which often negate or change rules from the previous edition. I found this to be true in MTG, in Overpower, in Star Wars minis, Mage Knight, Wildstorms Superhero card game, etc... The only collectible games I haven't found this to be true is rippers. Even in a level playing field game like warhammer it's possible to outspend opponet's and field units purposley meant to negate their abilities.

Granted it would take a noticable amount of money to create this disadvantage and many of the people I game with anymore, would never go spend 100s on a single game but I know people, whom I use to game with, who would do it on purpose just to win every single time they played. They really hated it when I quit playing and they were stuck with a 1000 dollar game and no one to play it with.

[Der Panzinator]

Well someone who spends $500-1000 dollars probably just deserves to win... :eek:

One thing to consider is that if you are friends with someone they should be willing to let you use their figures to play. If it is a tournament then I guess your screwed. :rolleyes:

[Canadian Pittbull]

At first I thought this to be a cool idea, but I am really against the whole randomized booster fad that seems to be the gimmick of the next following years. I would rather spend money on sets rather than spending money on random figures. Not sure I like this at all. I have sunk enough money into games made up of the booster kind and not very happy with the out come.

This game would be far more acessible if folks could spend 50 bucks on a Axis army set or 50 bucks on a Allies set. Or even sets based on different time periods within the WWII. But to randomize and then sink tons of cashola and not get what you are looking for is not great for the consumer. Maybe for the companies and corporations but not average joe on the street who has to deceide whether to make rent or pay a phone bill or blow 20 bucks and hopefully get that military piece he was looking for.

So not really interested in purchasing this if it is another random booster game. Companies who want to make money should make everything available to their target market. I'm sorry but if I had a choice in what I wanted for my armies at the time I purchase then I would be more inclined to part with my money.

This is a bad idea. Hope they rethink this....

[Sinister]

Well I don't think its a bad idea, I just wish we got to pick the units we wanted. This game should be popular and good for AH and I'm excited to see the minis and how game play works.

[pellulo]

The questions begs to be asked?, will a good game flop, cause of it not having fancy expensive units/booster packs, or, will a lousey game shine, cause it has fancy units/booster packs.

I can see the gamming companies/players artifcially keeping those prices up, until the soap bubble burst (by then you'll see them at the dicount bin at Toys R Us, but, that's O.K. cause they'll always be a new bubble on the rise!).

I can also see games purchase, just for speculative reasons, for the value of the plastic/metalic painted or unpainted units, by people who will never play them, or, subsitute the orginal parts (so they do not damage the orginal). Thanks, pellulo

[MasterHawk]

I think that by... say... this time next year, this stuff will all be in the bargain bins!

[Da Black Gobo]

The questions begs to be asked?, will a good game flop, cause of it not having fancy expensive units/booster packs, or, will a lousey game shine, cause it has fancy units/booster packs.

I can see the gamming companies/players artifcially keeping those prices up, until the soap bubble burst (by then you'll see them at the dicount bin at Toys R Us, but, that's O.K. cause they'll always be a new bubble on the rise!).

I can also see games purchase, just for speculative reasons, for the value of the plastic/metalic painted or unpainted units, by people who will never play them, or, subsitute the orginal parts (so they do not damage the orginal). Thanks, pellulo

Pellulo, has it right. The whole idea behind the collectible market is nothing more than fools gold. Manufacturing, rarity is one of the most creative, yet wicked ideas of the last 20 years. The whole collection craze, started over rare items such as comic books. While old comics from the 50's and 60's have a high value if in a fine condition, people have bought into the idea that all comics are collectible, which is a myth. Same true with other things made today, to is a scheme made by manufactorers to sell more product.

WotC started the idea of collectiblity with MtG, and found a rich market full of gullible bored young persons with money to burn. They then continued to manufactor rartity and collectiblity to inflate the value of thier product. But, at the heart of it, it is nothing but a facade. With time product will deflate. Why, because if a game is not continued to be played and or supported, it loses all its value, and become what it should be just more toys for the gamer. I refuse to allow any family member to become exploted by a marketing scheme, built around a lie.

Shame on WotC to use AH to become the next gaming sell out.

Sean

[Redcoat]

While I agree that the "collectible" theme is not ideal, AH has a great opportunity to dominate this market. They could expand this almost endlessly inluding buildings and aircraft. Even make terraign "kits" to turn this into a proper wargame. Once people started to use them... they would keep expanding thier collections rather than swith to another model type that would be less "compatible".

I pray they choose a good set of rules that can be made easy for beginners or those not interested in "serious" games while allowing true wargammers to get involved with a more advanced set. The reality is if the figures and vehicles are of good quality, accurate, and a robust line is presetned all wargammers of 15mm could be inclined to purchase them.

The 'booster' pack theme could be effecive if it is narrow in scope i.e. "German Afrika Korps" etc. so that way someone wanting to play North Afrika doesnt have to get Japanese soldiers or other theatre specific etc. The "rare" figure is perhaps some super XP NCO or obscure scout vehicle rather than a key compnent like a squad leader... which would be essential to compete.

Either way I am very excited... as I have been painting minis for years and do enjoy it... I find myself painting more than playing. This would make it easy to jump right in and play. I have high hopes!!

Shawn

[Moderator Sinister]

MtG made wizards, and that saved D&D. AH can only benefit from this even if you don't like the concept.

Don't get me wrong I'm wish they would package minis differently but collectible games sell. It may not be your thing but if I'm running a game company you better beleive I would have a collectible line. I would package things in a different way but I'd still have a collectible line.

MTG is huge, Star Wars minis are huge.

Bottom Line...this is great for AH. I'm thinking maybe had the old AH lasted a bit longer and came up with this idea it may have saved them. No one is forcing anyone to purchase the game, it will be successful without forcing anyone to buy it.

[Der Panzinator]

I still think that those players who will spend a fortune on game pieces will do so. Even with Axis & Allies you have people who will buy thousands of extra sets of pieces. Or you have others who buy expensive lead miniatures and spend the time to paint them to enhance their gaming experience. How is this different from collecting a bunch of pre-painted pieces and building huge armies?

I really don't like the whole collectible trend of games lately but then what are we to do? As long as game companies are making money, and I'm sure they probably are, they will keep on producing these types of games.

Here is an example of what you can do to be able to build your own army with whatever you want. This is one of several sites where you can buy singles of nearly anything you want.
http://www.iconusa3.com/online/MW_singles.htm

This is just an example of Mechwarrior game. They also sell D&D, Star Wars, Heroclix, etc...
I'm sure that A&AM will be included soon after it is released. It's usually best to find some cheap boosters to build a base set and then fill in whatever you need from the singles websites.

[Da Black Gobo]

Today the world is bent on gambling, in a way collectible games are just the beginning of the gambling bent. I work for a gaming store for years and saw first hand, the MtG craze. People can buy into it, saying to themselves, what can we do? OR, tell the companies to stick it, and not give them money. I will do the latter.

To hell with collectible games and the companies that make them. Sure, they make money, but so does dealing drugs. One is legal the other is not, but both are immoral because they are based in getting persons hooked, one with chemical dependance, the other with greed.

AH has broken my faith completely, I'm through with them. Plenty of other great small game companies out there that will do the right thing.

GET A CLUE, SOMETIMES IT SHOULD NOT BE ABOUT THE MONEY.

[Sinister]

It may appear that I come down in the middle of this issue but yet we are all products of our own experiences.

I stopped playing collectible games because of two things; I didn't want to have to outspend my opponet to win and I didn't like random packaging. I love boardgames because when you open the box a level playing ground awaits (assuming both players have about the same skill level) and you know what you just purchased.

That said I LOVE magic 100 more times more now then when I played competitive tournaments. I don't spend 50 bucks a week I play in a group with about 4 or 5 people that use prepackaged them decks and it's people I can stand playing with. If someone wins the first 2 or 3 games they switch up decks and it's no longer about how bad I can beat you. The same goes for the warhammer crowd. I could never stand going into the store and playing with strangers. they would pull out some cheap white dwarf rules (a magazine) or some dumb house rules and be jerks about it because they needed to win. I built my own warhammer table and invited friends to play and we all except the rules "as written"

What I'm saying is that I too once worked in a gaming store and I too once thought that games companies were evil when some guy buys 10 boxes of boosters then goes into the game room, opens them all, let's out a groan cause he didn't get the card he wanted so he comes back and buys another 5 boxes of boosters. The truth is that guy doesn't have to do that, he can free himself if he chooses. He can learn to enjoy the game without the need to always win, without the need to spend 100s per week, and without the need to be a jerk. This person is suffering from self esteem issues if he needs to spend 500 per week to win at a card game. These people are the most frustrating people on the planet and a good reason why collectible games are hated and despised. Certainly turned me off competitve play.

Collectibles aren't nor were they ever the problem. The culture is the problem. There are many fine collectible games. People who have to win are the problem. Those that master a boardgame still have only the boardgame to purchase. We've all seen, or indeed, are these people that must win no matter what. Thus a collectible game the thirst to win is never quenched, where in a boardgame you can't gain an edge by purchasing an additional version (although if you could people would run out a do it in a heartbeat).

And now we get to the blame game. It's wizards fault because they want to make money? Honestly it's our fault and our own desires to need to win. Collectibles are compared to drugs? Well I compare them to the supersize macdonald's meals. Is macdonalds responsible for your health beause you choose to eat there? If you look closely you'll see its not Macdonald's fault or AH's.. its the culture. We want instant gratification and we feel entitled. One cheesburger at macdonalds a week won't kill you, 18 a week might. Show some restraint.

Recently a health craze has prompted the fast food industry to react. Arby's has produced market fresh sandwhiches (whole grain, lunch meat), more salads are popping up at each resturant. Kids meals are including things like peanut butter and jelly and juice. In essence the companies are reacting to a culture change. The best evidence of this is the complete success of the subway chain whose has a loyal following thanks to offering healthy or at least much more healthy choices than most. Thus the culture changes and the company reacts.

SO what's my point? Don't come down on collectibles because the culture can't handle it. There are many GREAT collectible games out there. The company isn't responsible for your own budget. Spend less, accept defeat, and enjoy the game OR buy another boardgame. But until the culture changes collectible games are here to stay. I know longer hold companies responsible for the purchasing habits of it's customers.

[Der Panzinator]

Well said Sinister.
I think it is time for everyone to take more responsibilty for their own actions and stop always trying to blame society and companies for their poor decisions.

That being said I think it is time for game companies to respond to the times and start providing booster packs that have set figures instead of random.
The popular game HeroScape has gone this route and its booster packs have new units but you know exactly what you are getting.

Avalon Hill, if you are listening then please offer set booster packs.
You can be a pioneer in offering a great product by having set booster packs and then maybe still offer random packs with unique units. Perhaps this would be the best of both worlds for both the company and the consumers.

[Sinister]

Well said Sinister.
I think it is time for everyone to take more responsibilty for their own actions and stop always trying to blame society and companies for their poor decisions.

That being said I think it is time for game companies to respond to the times and start providing booster packs that have set figures instead of random.
The popular game HeroScape has gone this route and its booster packs have new units but you know exactly what you are getting.

Avalon Hill, if you are listening then please offer set booster packs.
You can be a pioneer in offering a great product by having set booster packs and then maybe still offer random packs with unique units. Perhaps this would be the best of both worlds for both the company and the consumers.


Well said. I would LOVE unrandom packs!!!!! That would make me buy more.

[Da Black Gobo]

Companies should be held accountable for thier product. Sure, the consumer is at blame for being gullible enough to buy into the product, but the company is at fault for making it. Great example is the tobacco industry. So not to blame the company is misguided.

Truth is you stated that companies change based on the culture. You give a example of Subway. Well then, I will use that example, and stand up and say I will not buy WotC products or AH products, until they change. Change does not come about by complacency, but by action. If the founding fathers of this country had been complacent then there never would have been this country.

I for one will NOT be part of this culture.

[Sinister]

Hey Gobo I respect your decision.

We could go round and round about tobbaco companies and what they are and aren't responsible for but I'm glad you are going to take a stand at least in your view point to make things better.

Gamers should always make it know what they want from game companies.

[TrimChris]

Companies should be held accountable for thier product. Sure, the consumer is at blame for being gullible enough to buy into the product, but the company is at fault for making it. Great example is the tobacco industry. So not to blame the company is misguided.

Truth is you stated that companies change based on the culture. You give a example of Subway. Well then, I will use that example, and stand up and say I will not buy WotC products or AH products, until they change. Change does not come about by complacency, but by action. If the founding fathers of this country had been complacent then there never would have been this country.

I for one will NOT be part of this culture.

This country already tried Prohibition. It didn't go over too well. One of the great things about the USA is freedom of choice.

The tobacco industry is a bit different from others because their products contain nicotine which is physically addictive to the human body. Are collectibles mentally addictive to the human mind? Maybe. But its a tough argument because lots of hobbies can become addictive. Collectibles may give you less bang for your buck then other hobbies, but there are worse ways to go.

DISCLAIMER - this is in no way an endoresement for the collectible hobby.

[RuHurt]

Doesn't anyone think they might be overreacting just a tad to this whole thing? I don't care for the collectable idea, and don't have the money to do anything with it, so this is just another game I'm not going to buy. But claiming that AH is evil because they're making an "addictive" game, and it's all just a plot to make more money, is total bull. And saying that it's a great idea that will rejuvenate the wargaming hobby is also bull; would you rather spend $45 on a game that has everything in it you need to play, or $45 for a "starter set," and another $15 to $20 for every "booster pack" you want? I don't know about y'all, but that's an easy decision for me.

People need to stop taking this issue so seriously; AH isn't "evil" for making a collectable game, but nor is it a great idea. It's just another game, for pete's sake.

[TrimChris]

Doesn't anyone think they might be overreacting just a tad to this whole thing? I don't care for the collectable idea, and don't have the money to do anything with it, so this is just another game I'm not going to buy. But claiming that AH is evil because they're making an "addictive" game, and it's all just a plot to make more money, is total bull. And saying that it's a great idea that will rejuvenate the wargaming hobby is also bull; would you rather spend $45 on a game that has everything in it you need to play, or $45 for a "starter set," and another $15 to $20 for every "booster pack" you want? I don't know about y'all, but that's an easy decision for me.

People need to stop taking this issue so seriously; AH isn't "evil" for making a collectable game, but nor is it a great idea. It's just another game, for pete's sake.

Amen! (Gosh I need ten characters to post).

[qmp]

I agree, AH is now a trendy company. They are making a trendy product. They are not evil.

Everyone has to face it. Sadly, AH is not the same AH we grew up with.

I don't like this product's random packaging. So I will not buy this product.

If someone does, I hope they enjoy it.

[Carlo]

If it's going to be like Magic, I will never buy this game. AH will have a chance of making me buy this only if they make it semi-random, like Germany boosters, japan boosters etc.

[vyshka]

Isn't half the point of miniatures games, the collecting and painting of
the miniatures themselves? All the people I have ever talked to that do miniatures that is a big part of the hobby for them, probably more than
actually playing the game.

Is this thing just going to be these prepainted plastic sets? It sounds like
WotC is trying to build an economy in miniatures like they did with the
cards for Magic.

[TrimChris]

Isn't half the point of miniatures games, the collecting and painting of
the miniatures themselves? All the people I have ever talked to that do miniatures that is a big part of the hobby for them, probably more than
actually playing the game.

Is this thing just going to be these prepainted plastic sets? It sounds like
WotC is trying to build an economy in miniatures like they did with the
cards for Magic.

These ain't ya granddaddy's minis. The SW minis are prepainted so I would think these will be too. I think they are tryng to market the product more broadly than for mini enthusiasts. We'll see how that works.

I wish they would take the Heroscape approach. Have a big base set that is a game in itself. Then have add-on packs with more non-random stuff.

[Sinister]

that's what I LOVE about the mage knight concept. Painting is not fun for everyone and anyone who plays warhammer can tell you what a pain it is to paint and entire army. So I'm GLAD they are prepainted.

I'm sick of painting!!

[pellulo]

Talk about minatures & war gamming, a good example, is the 1/72 figures & props made by the Russian Company Zeveda, you can see a good selection, on The Toy Company Website, H.O. section.

I got the Battle of Marathon set, basically some cardboard cutouts, a large & well illustrated guidebook (with typical Russian to English spelling errors), it covers from ancient times to about the early renassiance.

Also a set of Persian foot & Greek foot, eventually got some chariots & horse for the Persians & elephants also (yes I know the Persian horse did not partipate & there was no elephants at the battle, they were used as wildcards). Also a box extra of Persian & Greek foot soldiers.

Gave a die count for all orginal 10,000 Greeks & 25,000 Persians, so I had to inflate the number value of all the units, played it twice & it is quite enjoyable! It is as long as a Risk game, if you try some stategy & tactics (it helps if you study a little bit about the battle), and, easier than a basic A&A game.

Eventualy I e-bay some of the basic game, sent some to a friend who well eventually paint them as his hobby, and kept a varied selection for my self (to use with that discounted ancient fortress that is 70% off). Also with some future Alexander's Foot & Horse units (yeah I'm taking about the Great), use it for some future wargame and a diorama (using those Marx's desert bases).

If you have to paint, use one figure of each pose, to see what it looks like, and, keep them to mark your "Boneyard". Painted units do not suffer much handling for game purposes.

Also Zeveda probably makes just as much off their castle sets , catapults, ect., & people who just plain collects thier favoite ancient to early renaisance units. Here they have the best of both worlds, just plain collecting/dioramas, or, wargamming.

Your choice of use (yes they did pull a rare collectiable stunt, of in each package of new figures, they had one new not released figure from a 1500s Russian Holy Warriors Type Unit). Can see them on http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/PeriodList.html.

But no I woulden't have got the game, if booster packs were not available, or, the sets had total kaos in them of different units/poses. Can you see the hassel of geting that rare super version of a heavy greek infantryman, and, 43 fluitists!

Also a pack of let's say foot soldiers, cost me in NYC about eight dollars for 40+ figures. Zeveda is not trying to yank your chain in availabilty or price, so hopefully AH might go a bit towards this route (heck Zeveda probalby be glad to make the units for them), thanks, Pellulo

[xxstefanx]

As I am responsible about my actions and not the culture I have never bought and will never buy collectible games!

Cheers, Black Gobo!

xxstefanx

[questioneer]

Gay as in happy?

Or ...................?

You need to better explain yourself. That is if you wish to get you coffee mug back!;)

Craig

Both. Keep the mug. ;)

[JoelMcBride]

GET A CLUE, SOMETIMES IT SHOULD NOT BE ABOUT THE MONEY.

What then, let us implore WotC to create a miniature wargame by seeking donations? What's so wrong with a company making a profit? Profit is good. If you have a greed problem, then repent of it and get on with life, don't blame a company for selling something you drool over.

[Da Black Gobo]

What then, let us implore WotC to create a miniature wargame by seeking donations? What's so wrong with a company making a profit? Profit is good. If you have a greed problem, then repent of it and get on with life, don't blame a company for selling something you drool over.

I'm not buying nor drooling over it. Read my words, not into them. NOT all profit is good, if it was then I would go out and sell drugs on the street corner.

Each person is accountable for thier own actions, and companies are accountable for thiers.

[sherminator1]

i'm actually sort of looking forward to it. I don't plan to actually buy the booster packs, but i will buy the really cheap singles. Thats what i do with all collectible games. I try and make a sweet army out of the cheap units.

[elbowsanchez]

i am taking the wait and see approach...my feeling is the price is too high...will see what AH / WOTC does with its MAGIC approach...not sure it will work, but still interesting in seeing the 15mm?? pretty small...i kind have all the customs i need for gaming...interested to see what a large production shop does...wonder how many different "things" there are, last thing i want to do is pay 2 grand to get the golden V2 rocket..

-cheers

[Redcoat]

Who is John Galt?

[boylermaker]

If it brings money for boardgames, I'm for it.
If it doesn't affect boardgames, I don't care.
If it funnels money from wargames, I'm against it.

Wait and see, I guess. I'd hesitate to use the word "*****" right now, but if it takes $$$ away from my boardgames, amen, Rev. Gobo!

[Moderator Sinister]

i am taking the wait and see approach...my feeling is the price is too high...will see what AH / WOTC does with its MAGIC approach...not sure it will work, but still interesting in seeing the 15mm?? pretty small...i kind have all the customs i need for gaming...interested to see what a large production shop does...wonder how many different "things" there are, last thing i want to do is pay 2 grand to get the golden V2 rocket..

-cheers

You should try warhammer. Some figures are 45 dollars and two or three single soliders are often 11 or 12 bucks. Talk about high price. Nowadays it takes about 800-1500 dollars for an army.

[TrimChris]

Who is John Galt?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[Der Panzinator]

Well depending on what exactly you get in the starter and booster packs the price seems pretty reasonable.
If you get 12 units in the starter for $24.99 then that makes each piece around $2.00 and the booster packs are around $1.75
Now if you buy a single 15mm Flames of war tank it will cost about $9.00 and I'm not sure right off about infantry.
If you were to buy a single GHQ 6mm tank it will cost about $2.00.
If you buy a single Minifig 12mm tank it will cost about $4.00.

Not knowing how many pieces of each unit are in a pack it's hard to know for sure how the price will stack up to other miniatures. If there is only one tank or vehicle per booster pack then I think the price is too high and a bit of a rip-off. Hopefully at least half of the pieces are vehicles or something similar.

[vogless]

I'm wondering how useable these minis will be with Flames of War. I'm also considering using Heroscape Terrain, seeing as I don't have $1000 laying around for terrain.

[Der Panzinator]

The game is supposed to come with 2 large double-sided hex maps. I'm sure that these will be just for anyone new to the hobby. I hope that the rules allow for the game to be played on a terrain table.

[elbowsanchez]

You should try warhammer. Some figures are 45 dollars and two or three single soliders are often 11 or 12 bucks. Talk about high price. Nowadays it takes about 800-1500 dollars for an army.

yes, warhammer is not for me...though im completely impressed how people paint them...more into traditional miniature wargamming, mostly napoleonics using a non complicated system of play...

-cheers

[Da Black Gobo]

GW, and other major miniature companies, do have staying power and worth. This can't be said of 99 percent of collectible games. What I mean is you get what you paided for with high quality miniatures. A well painted model from GW will hold it's value over the years, and with time you will have a large number of miniatures you can take pride of. Not true of collectible plastic models. They only hold thier value untill the next wave hits or for a short number of years. The paint jobs are lackluster at best. As many know with time most will see the bargain bins. A collection of GW minis or other companies minis will keep it's value due to the fine paint jobs and high quality game piece, even if the game is not played. So, do you want quality, and something that will stand up and be worthy of your time, or do you just want a quick fix, and throw your money at it, then after a couple of years look back and count the cost in terms of wasted income and time?

It's your choice

[JoelMcBride]

When you mention that collectible games and the companies who make them are immoral because they are based in getting people hooked with greed, I certainly read that as blaming a company for a product you drool over. Not much else to read 'into' that, in my opinion. And, if a person has a greed problem then THEY need to deal with it, not a company selling products which they are drooling over to buy with all their greed.

When you refer to the fact that companies are accountable for their actions, I'm unclear as to exactly WHAT actions is AH (in this case) accountable for in the creation of this WWII collectible game?

I'm not buying nor drooling over it. Read my words, not into them. NOT all profit is good, if it was then I would go out and sell drugs on the street corner.

Each person is accountable for thier own actions, and companies are accountable for thiers.

(previous post):
Today the world is bent on gambling, in a way collectible games are just the beginning of the gambling bent. I work for a gaming store for years and saw first hand, the MtG craze. People can buy into it, saying to themselves, what can we do? OR, tell the companies to stick it, and not give them money. I will do the latter.

To hell with collectible games and the companies that make them. Sure, they make money, but so does dealing drugs. One is legal the other is not, but both are immoral because they are based in getting persons hooked, one with chemical dependance, the other with greed.

AH has broken my faith completely, I'm through with them. Plenty of other great small game companies out there that will do the right thing.

GET A CLUE, SOMETIMES IT SHOULD NOT BE ABOUT THE MONEY.

[Da Black Gobo]

Again, this is the last time I will say it, making something that entices persons to buy into it, knowing that what will drive the sales is the idea that they are gaining something of value, and or praying on a person gulliblility and greed factor is immoral pure and simple, and nothing you can say will prove it otherwise. Go hide behind the mask of civility if you wish, but I call it like it is.

AH is not the alone in it's practice, nor I doubt will be the last. Even this goverment is at fault for the practice of the Lottery. While, both they and you can be apart of it if you wish, it don't make it right or moral.

'nuff said

[series]

Your the man, Da Black Gobo...

[TrimChris]

Again, this is the last time I will say it, making something that entices persons to buy into it, knowing that what will drive the sales is the idea that they are gaining something of value, and or praying on a person gulliblility and greed factor is immoral pure and simple, and nothing you can say will prove it otherwise. Go hide behind the mask of civility if you wish, but I call it like it is.

AH is not the alone in it's practice, nor I doubt will be the last. Even this goverment is at fault for the practice of the Lottery. While, both they and you can be apart of it if you wish, it don't make it right or moral.

'nuff said

ooh! ooh! Time to wax philisophical.

What's moral really is different for different people, despite the fact that many think their morals are absolute. This argument has gone on for centuries, and there is still no answer that satisfies everyone today.

The question here is where do you draw the line? The value of any entertainement product or experience is entirely subjective. After you've spent 10 millions dollars for a ride into space, you only have the memories and experience to show for it. So is it worth it? I think that depends on the individual. 10 millions dollars could pay for a lot of adventures, but to some it wouldn't matter becuase the space trip is what they want. You are arguing that the act of selling the 10 million dollar space trip is immoral.

$200 dollars on a collectible game could buy tons of board games that will hold their value over time, but some would still prefer the collectible. It's all about choices.

[Moderator Sinister]

Um...I'm not going to say anything nice about games workshop as a company.

As a game warhammer is one of the finest games ever made. I can't tolerate the practice of games workshop as a consumer.

1. they constantly raise prices. The cost of a reaper miniature is 3 times less on average than the cost of a wahammer miniature. Same size, same material, and games workshop produces much much more. Why then is the cost of a warhammer mini 150% more?

2. They require full paint jobs to participate in tournaments. Oh did I forget to mention they sell paint, primer, and glue?

3. They issued a brand new rules system almost 6 years ago and still have yet to release all the army books for that system (I've been waiting that long on the wood elf book) That's pretty inexcusible in my book to make my army unofficial for 6 years! Buy the time they do make this book they will reissue the rules so what's they point?

4. They purposley lowered the point costs on all units to force you to field more units and thus make you purchase more models.

5. Their minatures are very prone to breaking into the assembled bits despite the amount of glue used. I'm used to constantly have to repair the minis.

6. They force retailers to order huge amounts of their product in order to get any sort of retailer discount.

7. Two years ago they forbade any online retailers from offering any minature beyond a 20% discount. A year and half ago they changed that to 10%, and a year ago they stopped online retailers in general from offering their products for online purchase. (Yes there are ways around this but that's not the point).

There is NO other game company that's greedier than GW, don't try to argue this with me, it won't work. Also their painted minature only hold value as a collectible. The new edition ELIMINATED many many special characters that now sit on my shelf collecting dust.

[Da Black Gobo]

I will not argue the facts you mentioned. I used them as a example only because it was a well know gaming company. A better choice would have been the fine historical minis made by other companies. My ancient collection is worth more each year even though the minis themselves are quite old.

On another note, I really am warming up to the new kid on the block of miniature gaming. Mongoose. The Starship Trooper base game is a great value with 20 large warrior bugs and 16 powersuit trooper to combat them. The rule book includes the full army list for both races, and other than a measuring tape, everything you need to play a game is included. I wish other companies would do the same. BTW, the rules themselves are the best Sci-fi rules I have come across and could be adapted for 40K and other games.

Sean

[TrimChris]

I will not argue the facts you mentioned. I used them as a example only because it was a well know gaming company. A better choice would have been the fine historical minis made by other companies. My ancient collection is worth more each year even though the minis themselves are quite old.

On another note, I really am warming up to the new kid on the block of miniature gaming. Mongoose. The Starship Trooper base game is a great value with 20 large warrior bugs and 16 powersuit trooper to combat them. The rule book includes the full army list for both races, and other than a measuring tape, everything you need to play a game is included. I wish other companies would do the same. BTW, the rules themselves are the best Sci-fi rules I have come across and could be adapted for 40K and other games.

Sean

Yeah the Starship Troopers product is intriguing but I haven't investigated too much yet. A gamer friend mentioned to me that the rules designer typically produces pretty good stuff.

So is it a noncollectible minis game?

[Da Black Gobo]

I wrote a Review of the system at www.boardgamegeek.com You get 20 large warrior bugs and 16 MIs to fight them. Which is enough for a good skirmish game. You can buy additional bugs and troopers in box sets, but I found the base set might be a much better bargain. You can get the base game for about 60 to 70 dollars. The additional box sets contain 8 troopers or 6 bugs for about 17 to 20 bucks. So if you had to buy the minis alone in the base set it would cost close to a hundred dollars! What I really want is a HUGE tanker bug that will come in a future box set. This fellow is tremendous, but cost about 30 bucks. Not cheap, but it really is a large model, as big or bigger than the armored tanks in 40K. Take a look at the Review to get a idea on how the game works. This is the first game made from the ground up by former GW member, Andy Chambers.

Sean

[Da Black Gobo]

While I can't agrue the prices of GW and other minis are high priced. I can state with confidence on one of the reasons for much of the price. The good old Goverment screwing things up with their good attentions.

Remember when you could get cheap lead minis? Remember the lead laws that were passed to protect children from lead paint? Well that law included toys and the goverment in the wisdom (I think those two word should never be used together), covered gaming miniatures in that law which led to the use of pewter instead. Since pewter is a much more costly material, the prices of miniatures doubled overnight!

Man that really bites, and is still biting me in the wallet!

[TrimChris]

Write your congressman today to get their support for.... lead minis? :D

[JoelMcBride]

We are all enticed by marketing. We humans are so easily persuaded.
You simply disagree with a marketing model but do so as if it was a slippery slope of moral values that people get trapped in.

These companies do not hide the fact that they are selling collectibles. The 'user' knows, in practice, what is being purchased. Sure, the excitement/possibility of gaining that extra rare piece is enticing (like gambling - just ONE more bet will pay off big!) - I see where you are trying to draw that analogy - but I think to state that these companies are actually acting immorally is a stretch. And I can not see how that can be construed as hiding behind a mask of civility.

If I choose to 'be a part of it', then it is MY choice - and I fear NOT that I am fueling any corporate practice (dare we use the word 'conspiracy') to entice gullible and/or greedy people in parting with their money in hopes they are gaining something of value.

Again, this is the last time I will say it, making something that entices persons to buy into it, knowing that what will drive the sales is the idea that they are gaining something of value, and or praying on a person gulliblility and greed factor is immoral pure and simple, and nothing you can say will prove it otherwise. Go hide behind the mask of civility if you wish, but I call it like it is.

AH is not the alone in it's practice, nor I doubt will be the last. Even this goverment is at fault for the practice of the Lottery. While, both they and you can be apart of it if you wish, it don't make it right or moral.

'nuff said

[series]

Write your congressman today to get their support for.... lead minis? :D

I'd totally do that.

[Moderator Sinister]

While I can't agrue the prices of GW and other minis are high priced. I can state with confidence on one of the reasons for much of the price. The good old Goverment screwing things up with their good attentions.

Remember when you could get cheap lead minis? Remember the lead laws that were passed to protect children from lead paint? Well that law included toys and the goverment in the wisdom (I think those two word should never be used together), covered gaming miniatures in that law which led to the use of pewter instead. Since pewter is a much more costly material, the prices of miniatures doubled overnight!

Man that really bites, and is still biting me in the wallet!


Yeah but does that mean reaper is using petwer or lead? Because I was under the impression petwer and yet reaper is much cheaper than GW

[Da Black Gobo]

I'm just saying if the Goverment had not screwed it up we would be paying about 1/2 of what we pay now for all metal minis across the board. GW, keeps their price higher as you well know by the racket they use to market both to stores, and to the public. I do, however think thier smart tactic of not dealing direct to distributors was a good move. It kept stores from being undercut by on line mail order shops. This in turn kept the store owner protected. I only wished they would give the store owner a great discount. I do though understand thier reasoning why they didn't. Really GW inflates thier minis by about 25 to 30 percent, and they could lower the cost in that regard.

Sean

[series]

I think it is stupid for someone to say that lead should be legalized for minis, even if kids die from it.

100th post!

[Da Black Gobo]

I think it is stupid for someone to say that lead should be legalized for minis, even if kids die from it.

100th post!

The lead laws came about from lead that was in the paint used on houses. Children would eat paint chips and then get lead poisoning. The law cover everything including miniatures, which are not for children, nor were there any cases involving children that I know of.

Sean

[series]

The lead laws came about from lead that was in the paint used on houses. Children would eat paint chips and then get lead poisoning. The law cover everything including miniatures, which are not for children, nor were there any cases involving children that I know of.

Sean

Let's say daddy plays boardgames and his little kid tries stuffing them in his mouth. I guess the kid would die anyway...

[Da Black Gobo]

The fault lies with the parent. Parents much child proof thier homes. If the father has lead minis as his hobby, he must keep them out of reach and or in a locked room of a house. I understand the law as to prevent products that were made as toys for children and paint products on walls. The letter of the law as alway overreaches the intent.

Sean

[Der Panzinator]

Lead is still being used today in miniatures...
CinC uses lead for their stuff.


C in C products are cast in T-35 alloy which is 38% tin with the balance being lead. It is safe to handle and you cannot get lead off with skin contact. NY state at one point considered putting all lead based products out of use, and in testing, they showed that C in C products were safe. The owner has used, hand cast and production cast in T-35 for over 35 years with no negative effects and C in C has not had any worker claims as well. We stand behind the safety of our product.



I have a 2 and 4 year old and I am very careful about leaving these miniatures around. Luckily my kids don't usually put things in their mouths but I like to be extra careful anyway. I'm actually more concerned about choking hazard more then lead poisoning. These things are about the perfect choking size and then the barrel sticking out would surely lodge in the throat.
The only other thing is the tiny spurs and such that are cut off or fall off when you get them. There is usually quite a bit of this stuff from manufacturing and it is all very small flakes.

[Der Panzinator]

I should also mention that CinC is a lot cheaper then other manufacturers.
One tank from CinC may cost around $1.25 and the same tank from GHQ will cost almost $2.00.
The main difference is that GHQ uses pewter instead of lead. And I believe they have a bit more overhead at GHQ. There is only a couple of guys who work at CinC. They make some great stuff at good prices though.

They also have an Axis & Allies special right now on 50 tanks which include 10 tanks from each country for $30.00. That is 60 cents a tank! :eek:
http://www.pfc-cinc.com/page/page/721915.htm

You do have to clean, glue, and paint them though. :rolleyes:

[joahdave]

We've gotten a little of topic here.Back to A&A mini's,I want to hear more from anyone else who was in on play-testing.Thanks.

[Der Panzinator]

Steve (Y2Uask) said that he has played some beta-test games.
Not sure if he can divulge anything specific though...
Can you??? :D

Inquiring minds want to know. :rolleyes:

[admiral_yamoto]

ok, here is my response. COLLECABLE MINIATURES SUCK! i used to collect star wars minis, and after spending 300+ dollars, i still dont have any "very rares".

warhammer is cool cause it will actually survive, but sinister is right they could lower the prices a bit.....

also sinister, dont fret, the wood elves army book will come this summer!!! :)

also i think that you get a little sense of pride when you paint your own army...

[MysticKatDaddy]

Wow man, you suck. Spending 300 and getting no VR? If you buy 3 Cases which cost 100 each, you're sure to get 14 VR automatically and have enough to trade for the rest of the set and all of the minis you'd want to play with. I buy 2 cases and get enough extra to trade for all of the minis I need to play with.

[admiral_yamoto]

yeah i know, lol, i think the trouble was that i bought boosters not cases, but still. does someone have to spend 150$ to get himself some VRs?

[Moderator Sinister]

also sinister, dont fret, the wood elves army book will come this summer!!! :)

.


yeah 6 years too late in my opinion. I'll bet they'll annouce a new rules revision within the next two years.

[admiral_yamoto]

oh well, i tried..........

[Da Black Gobo]

I just finished my first batch of bugs for Starship Troopers. I'm quite please with them. So, if someone like myself with poor eyesite can paint them, just about anyone can.

Can't wait for that huge tanker bug to come out in a month or so. Should have all 40 warriors done by then.

Sean

[sherminator1]

Wow man, you suck. Spending 300 and getting no VR? If you buy 3 Cases which cost 100 each, you're sure to get 14 VR automatically and have enough to trade for the rest of the set and all of the minis you'd want to play with. I buy 2 cases and get enough extra to trade for all of the minis I need to play with.
You realize that by insulting his way of buying miniatures and explaining how you buy 100$ of minis at a time your actually making yourself look stupid, right?

[series]

Either that or he has to get some priorities in place...

[Anzio]

Don't worry about playing against the guy who spent 500 bucks on his A&A minis - I am certain there will be a "point system" of some kind, just like in SW Minis.

This will level the battlefield with ease. The guy who wants to fight with his 100 point Hunting Tiger tank will have to get through your 100 1-point Angry Guy With Grenade figs!

I plan to buy a ton of this stuff - for display in my WWII showcase if nothing else.

Strafing Run Games will be launching about a billion decals for it as well!

Steve
Strafing Run

[Moderator Sinister]

Steve,

It's good to hear from you. As to the points system it will level the field some although I don't always agree with the designers on the point costs of particular minatures. Often I find the the designers own personal favorites get discounted and sometimes it's too many points for some units.

[RuHurt]

I still don't know; I would be interesting in playing this, but the start package does sound like a rip-off, as do the booster pack's prices. A good idea, I think, but too little thought went into it (IMHO).

[Caractacus]

Personally, I don't think my friends and I would care about the points values. We'd create fun scenarios and decide who plays which. We play for fun and always have - if I have the 'three German squads and the StuG at the bridge' and you have the 'three Russian companies and three T-34s' for an unbalanced but fun scenario this week, then I'll have the Eighth army versus the italians next week. It's about entertainment for us rather than winning...

[Moderator Keldar]

Personally, I don't think my friends and I would care about the points values. We'd create fun scenarios and decide who plays which. We play for fun and always have - if I have the 'three German squads and the StuG at the bridge' and you have the 'three Russian companies and three T-34s' for an unbalanced but fun scenario this week, then I'll have the Eighth army versus the italians next week. It's about entertainment for us rather than winning...

Good idea. You can be very flexible with minis and a basic rule set. User created maps will also be a great by-product of this game and the unlimited imaginations of players. :)

[VFults]

I would LOVE unrandom packs!!!!! That would make me buy more.

The random vs. non-random debate has played out on both the D&D minis board and the SW minis board.

It all boils down to Merrick's Law of Miniatures:
Non-Random Packaging, Cheap Prices, A Large Range of Figures:
Choose two.

Random packaging isn't ideal but it will allow for a wide variety of miniatures at a reasonable price.

Regards,

V

[skeevo666]

The random vs. non-random debate has played out on both the D&D minis board and the SW minis board.

It all boils down to Merrick's Law of Miniatures:
Non-Random Packaging, Cheap Prices, A Large Range of Figures:
Choose two.

Random packaging isn't ideal but it will allow for a wide variety of miniatures at a reasonable price.

Regards,V

Ahh, I knew I had read about this law somewhere (and spent about an hour reting to find it via Google a couple weeks ago!) Specifically to enlighten certain unhappy members here. :cool:

[CaptainHans]

Brains! and scale change! These guys had no idea what was going to happen with this game.

[Richter von Manthofen]

You are a Necromancer - you raised a long dead thread :D