This game is gonna suck

[series]

For the base set, anyway.

Why am I being so pessimistic?

Ok, let's look at this:

"Base Set, featuring 48 soldiers and vehicles from WWII plus detailed hex maps of terrain representing the battlefields of Europe"

Battlefields of Europe imply that there will be no Japanese. That means 4 armies, British, American, Russian, and German.

Assuming everyone has equal amount of forces, that would be 12 units per army (48/4=12). 12 units is NOT a lot to collect. Here's the big problem I see- with rare units, lets say each army has 4 rare units (4 types of tanks, for example). That means that the average armies of a nation will all have the same pieces! 8 non-rare units per army... not a lot if you ask me! Not only that, but assuming the game is German Vs. Allied Nation, Germany would be at a huge disadvantage, a roster of 12 units vs. a roster of 36???

Now, let's assume the Axis and the Allies each have equal forces. That's 24 German, 8 American, 8 Russian, and 8 British, or 12 Western Allied and 12 Russian. Either way, that's not a lot, and a roster of 8 vs a roster of 24 is also a huge disadvantage.

The only fair options would be:

Any units can work on the same side

or

Any two armies can clash

I see both of these as bad options. UK vs. USA? That's just crazy! Russians and Germans working together to kill Germans and Americans? That's also crazy! I think it will probably be Axis Vs. Allies...

which leads to another problem. What if you and your friend both get that uber rare Hitler piece (there isnt a hitler piece, but im just giving an example) and you both want to build a German army? You will probably need to make sure you and your friends buy different units, and I guess never play against anyone fighting with the same power as yours. Unless you use some sort of Marker to show designation, but that's unnecessary IMO.

I think this could be a fun game one day, but these flaws sound utterly horrible.

[admiral_yamoto]

yeah, youre right, these miniatures games have horrible game design. SWMs is just a over simplified RPG system, i dont know how A&AMs will be, but im expecting a SWMlike game with hexes

[qmp]

First off let me say, I really don't think I am going to purchase the game system. If I do, it will be from ebay, I don't like random. And only if the units can be blended in - usable - with my current WW2 miniatures.

As for series comments;

-No Japanense -> they have mentioned they will be Japanense.

-European Battlefields only -> to get a battlefield of a pacific island just outline a grid in blue. Everything else is dense jungle.

-48 pieces to collect -> I won't begin to guess what the ratio per country is. But I hazard a guess that there will be 1 rare tank per country (Tiger, SU122, Matilda etc) and 1 rare infantry unit per country (paras, SS, engineers, commandoes etc). I think you will get A LOT of basic infantry per box.

-Equal forces -> I highly doubt that in random boxes you will get an equal split. If you are collecting the whole set this maybe the way to go. But if you looking to collect your favorite country you are going to have A LOT of traders.

-Fair options 1&2 -> Crazy? Just use you imagination a little bit, because its a game afterall. Both sides used captured equipment especially in the desert. And though it was extremely rare, units did switch sides en masse.

-2 players collecting the same country -> yup, that would suck, perhaps someone getting into this with a friend should figure what country/side they want to be before they go splits on a box. Makes it easier to trade too. If you and whoever you are going to play the most don't collect the same army.

-could be fun one day -> I hope anybody who does purchase this has fun each time they play it.

[series]

-they have mentioned they will be Japanense.

In the Base Set? If so, this means approximately 9.6 units per army. If not, then it doesn't matter, because I only was talking about the base set. 9.6 units, however, has even less variaty.

-to get a battlefield of a pacific island just outline a grid in blue. Everything else is dense jungle.

I believe the game comes with a map, so I don't see why you should make your own just to play in the Pacific.

-I won't begin to guess what the ratio per country is. But I hazard a guess that there will be 1 rare tank per country (Tiger, SU122, Matilda etc) and 1 rare infantry unit per country (paras, SS, engineers, commandoes etc). I think you will get A LOT of basic infantry per box.

So spend $15 on 8 infantry and maybe a tank or something (only 9 units per booster, which isn't "A LOT")? Sounds a bit ridiculous to me. I could use my current A&A infantry for a much cheaper game in that case.

-I highly doubt that in random boxes you will get an equal split. If you are collecting the whole set this maybe the way to go. But if you looking to collect your favorite country you are going to have A LOT of traders.

I didn't say it would be an equal split, or at least I didn't intend to. I'm not quite sure why you thought this. But I do know that there probably will be some sort of mix. And I don't think your going to have to trade a lot, after all, only 9.6-12 pieces per nation...

-Crazy? Just use you imagination a little bit, because its a game afterall. Both sides used captured equipment especially in the desert. And though it was extremely rare, units did switch sides en masse.

I suppose that they used captured infantry, too? Either way, that's very historically inaccurate. Why not just make generic pieces if that is the goal?

-yup, that would suck, perhaps someone getting into this with a friend should figure what country/side they want to be before they go splits on a box. Makes it easier to trade too. If you and whoever you are going to play the most don't collect the same army.

"I'll trade you my German Infantry for your Eisenhower"

"B-b-but that's not fair!"

"Come on, you only have German units, why would you need an Eisenhower?"

"Well, I suppose your right..."

How would this work in tournaments, especially? "umm... the top two are both German... anyone got a coin to flip?"?

-I hope anybody who does purchase this has fun each time they play it.

I hope so to. But I have my doubts.

[qmp]

"I'll trade you my German Infantry for your Eisenhower"

Who would want Ike I'll give him to ya for free!?!? I'll take Sgt Fury or Sgt Rock, or anyone in Easy over him!

As for the rest, if they hand you lemons, make lemonade was all I was trying to say.

[Redcoat]

I think you guys make alot of assumtions. Clearly the "at release" options will be limited - but rather than go crazy and rightous just wait three more months for the next 48 piece release and things will begin to fill out. They have to start somewhere.

Also, since this is obviously a squad based game all the references to WWII figureheads and Chief of Staffs is hardly appropriate. I understand "drama" makes posts more amusing and perhaps helps you make your case but it could confuse those that are less informed as yourselves.

Lets just wait and see what AH creates for us. They want to make money so they will do it right.

[admiral_yamoto]

Lets just wait and see what AH creates for us. They want to make money so they will do it right.

lets not forgot stratego legends now

[series]

Who would want Ike I'll give him to ya for free!?!? I'll take Sgt Fury or Sgt Rock, or anyone in Easy over him!

As for the rest, if they hand you lemons, make lemonade was all I was trying to say.

I see, I thought you meant that they were giving us lemonade and I was only seeing lemon... or... some... thing...

I think you guys make alot of assumtions. Clearly the "at release" options will be limited - but rather than go crazy and rightous just wait three more months for the next 48 piece release and things will begin to fill out. They have to start somewhere.

Also, since this is obviously a squad based game all the references to WWII figureheads and Chief of Staffs is hardly appropriate. I understand "drama" makes posts more amusing and perhaps helps you make your case but it could confuse those that are less informed as yourselves.

Lets just wait and see what AH creates for us. They want to make money so they will do it right.

Hmm, Pokemon released like 80 cards right off the bat! I say, release it when it's ready, not when you think would be a good time to rush it out. After all, when I pay $40 for a game (one booster one starter), I expect to have an exciting game experience. After all, I could buy 4 Pokemon decks for that same amount... (sorry for the abundance of Pokemon references, but I believe many trading games want that success)

lets not forgot stratego legends now

Haha

[sherminator1]

Hmm, Pokemon released like 80 cards right off the bat!

how the (Edited) do you know that?

[2nd_Panzer]

All I will say, is be cautious. Sit back, wait for the other suckers to buy it first, then see if it is the game for you.

[Moderator Sinister]

Miniatures by nature cost more but I can give you a list of 50 games workshop minis that cost 45 dollars. At least 15 bucks is getting you a few minis.

When mage knight came out fantasy mini gamers thought they'd died and gone to heaven. The minis were dirt cheap by any standards. D&D then tapped into that market.

[series]

how the (Edited) do you know that?

I only own like, 10,000. I hope one day the demand comes back so I can make a pretty penny on e-bay.

Too bad I didn't cash in on my Charizards when they were going for $200 each...

[Blatz]

"I'll take Sgt Fury or Sgt Rock, or anyone in Easy over him!"

Hahaha, I used to read Sgt Rock too! It's good to know he's not forgotten.

[GFMRommel]

At the very least it should be a source for cheap minis.

[skeevo666]

All I will say, is be cautious. Sit back, wait for the other suckers to buy it first, then see if it is the game for you.

And then trade through the nose for the figs from the 1st set you missed out on :p

[StyxParadox]

And then trade through the nose for the figs from the 1st set you missed out on :p

Yes, the trick is to figure out quickly which peace will play well and is rare and try and get it (them) early. After that you can wait and see how the games does before investing too much into boosters.

[Anarch]

And so it begins... the one thing that kills games, random collectibility and speculators.

[StyxParadox]

Yep, that really has killed Magic the Gathering. Actually, you are kind of right in that for some it will kill it. For others like myself it will make game even more attractive.

[TomJag3]

You're right, Anarch. I hate random collectibility.

I wonder if it'll be possible to get the cards and use BattleFront 15 mm miniatures. Then you don't have to worry about getting a bunch of Brits when you're trying to put together Russians.

[skeevo666]

Then you don't have to worry about getting a bunch of Brits when you're trying to put together Russians.

Actually, that's already taken care of.

As this (http://www.wargamer.com/articles/on_board_specialedition/Default.asp) review/preview shows, the boosters will actually theatre-specific :D

[Smith568]

when I pay $40 for a game (one booster one starter)

Nobody who's going to seriously get into this game is going to buy two boxes at the MSRP. Honestly, the best way to do it is to fork out a little more for a case at a deep discount from an online resource and then trade or EBAY away the stuff you don't want for the stuff you do. Supporting your local game shop is GREAT - if you've got one - but you really don't need to feel that pinned down by it.

Based on my experience with the D&D Minis line, I think the Axis & Allies line is going to surprise a lot of us. You might want to avoid it at first - fair enough - but once you start seeing it around, you'll either have to develope a deep grudge or give in to the fact that it might just actually interest you.

Within the first year of this game's release, we'll see the first set augmented by at least two - probably three - maybe even four expansions. By the time this thing hits the 4th expansion after the original, there will be something like 240 different models out there - PLENTY to choose from and to recreate the scenarios that you enjoy most. By that time - some of us might just then be coming around to the conclusion that this thing just might be the beast to breath new life into table top gaming.

Thanks for the discussion - you guys make some good points, but I think I'm into this one!

[gamesy]

I disagree with all the naysaying going on here. Sounds like most of it is from guys who like to play war games with starter rule books the size of history text books and which takes hours and hours to complete. Well, A&A has never been for youse guys, A&A has always been for the casual board gamer, to a greater or lesser extent. If you hardcore guys don't like the game it's because the game was not designed for you, it was designed for teenagers and adults who like an easy to play WWII themed game.

And there's more of those people, and more money, potentially in that market.

I dislike randomly placed minis in boosters. But as usual, I'll buy the starter and a few boosters and then get what I want off eBay.

All of my wargamer pals I e-mailed the info on A&A minis on are totally psyched about the game, including the paint jobs and the scale (if you're used to the monochromatic color scheme of the regular A&A games these are great). Whatever rules we don't like will invaribly be adjusted/changed with house rules in any event.

[GoblinSlayer]

Hey gamesy thanks for being so optimistic about the game.
I think your right this game is for teenagers-adults who want a quick WWII game. And thats exactly who I am and I think this game looks great.

[VFults]

The little information I've gleaned so far indicates A&AM will be very similar to the D&D and Star Wars minis games; it will be rules-lite and quick to play. It is a game for people just wanting to have fun with toy soldiers and tanks. This is a good thing; any game that introduces people to miniatures gaming should be welcomed.


Regards,

V

[TheFoeHammer]

On the original complaint/subject about not having enough initial variety I disagree. Even if we only have 8 sculpts per nationality in the base set that is more than enough for an adequate game.

Imagine this for the US. (Total speculation, I have no information.)

3 Tanks - M4A3E8, M10 Tank Destroyer, M3 or M5A1 Stuart (or maybe an M8 Scout Car or Half-track)
1 Gun - Possibly a 3 Inch AT
4 Infantry - Possibly Infantry, Bazooka, Mortar and SMG

I can think of a lot of varied battle groups and scenarios to build around that.

And I would imagine that just like in D&D and Star Wars, WOTC and AH don't want you buying one set and stopping, so they have to leave some desirable items for future sets. Its just the nature of a collectible miniatures game.