what is the word about the infantry...

[Major Adler]

have the folowing questions...1 - will the infantry be individual soldier pcs. or a small group of soldiers?(such as mortar team or , rifle team or MG team)...2 - will the infantry be in scale with the vehicles?...3 - will there be different types of infantry for each nationality(such as SS , Heer , Fallschrimjager , Volksturm , Afrika Korps for the Germans)...

Adler...out............

[admiral_yamoto]

i think the developer said that the infantry would be in small groups.

welcome to the boards :)

[Major Adler]

small groups or teams of infantry are fine with me...but I do hope that there will be different types of infantry for each nationality...after all what are the Germans without their Fallschrimjagers!...and the Russians without the Guards!...

Adler...out.........

[series]

I thought he said that the sculpt would be of one infantry, but that one guy would represent several...

[vogless]

That's the way I read it. I sculp representing a group, not squad.

[fenyan]

small groups or teams of infantry are fine with me...but I do hope that there will be different types of infantry for each nationality...after all what are the Germans without their Fallschrimjagers!...and the Russians without the Guards!...

Adler...out.........

I'd have to think so, after there are going to be bucketloads of "common" infantry figures, yes?

[Moderator Sinister]

I thought he said that the sculpt would be of one infantry, but that one guy would represent several...


series is correct. I asked Rich that question in the may 20th chat. one miniature will represent a squad.

[Der Panzinator]

I'm still not sure about the infantry. One 15mm infantry on a base is too small...
I would say they would need at least 3 or 4. Below is Rich's reply to sinister and I don't think the answer is entirely clear. He says that most infantry will represent a fire team of 3 or 4 guys. But he doesn't say that the miniatures themselves are 3 or 4 figures per base or that one figure per base represents the fire team.


moderator_sinister: Rich, is infantry represented by 1 solider on a base?

Rich_Baker: As far as units represented on a base...

Rich_Baker: It depends. For vehicles, you're definitely talking about 1 at a time. So the Tiger mini is one Tiger tank. Most infantry guys, we sort of assume that the mini represents a fire team... say, 3 or 4 guys. But it's not explicit, and to be honest, it's not real important in game play.



As a point of reference a current A&A infantry piece is in 1/76 scale which is equivilant to 20mm. So the new A&A infantry minis will be much smaller then the boardgame infantry pieces. Now take a 15mm tank, which basically will fit in the palm of your hand and then put a single 15mm infantry unit on a big base and it is just wrong...

My opinion is that we should expect 3 to 4 infantry figures per base.

[Der Panzinator]

Here is a good example of 15mm pieces with based infantry of 5 units and some tanks.

http://www.battlefront.co.nz/Images/Otherpics/BC-FOW-06.jpg

Now try to imagine 1 single infantry unit on a base and it just doesn't work.


For a ton of more 15mm images check out the Flames of War webpage:

http://www.battlefront.co.nz/

This is a very popular set of WWII 15mm miniatures rules and all infantry units are always based with several figures depending on the type of unit.

[Moderator Sinister]

I agree I was hoping for a bunch of guys on a base but the above makes it sound like "the mini" represents a fire team of 4 or 5.

Fo ease of play I expect this game to be really simple and just like A&A there will be alot of historical omissions for the sake of speed and play.

[Kaufschtick]

I'm still not sure about the infantry. One 15mm infantry on a base is too small...
I would say they would need at least 3 or 4. As a point of reference a current A&A infantry piece is in 1/76 scale which is equivilant to 20mm. So the new A&A infantry minis will be much smaller then the boardgame infantry pieces. Now take a 15mm tank, which basically will fit in the palm of your hand and then put a single 15mm infantry unit on a big base and it is just wrong...My opinion is that we should expect 3 to 4 infantry figures per base.

One 15mm figure on a base would be too small and "just wrong", agreed! Guess we'll have to wait and see. Hopefully this issue will be cleared up in the forthcoming "previews"...?

Herr Adler....Curt...? :confused:

[Major Adler]

if it is going to be ONE figure representing a small group of infantry...it will be a serious turn-off...

Adler...out.................

[vogless]

I would also REALLY like to see multiple infantry minis per base. How about some pics?

[Redcoat]

In regards to getting into the "wargamer" market I think it would be a huge mistake to have one figure represent an entire squad.. I personally hope this isnt the case. If they do this it will limit the use of these figures with other rules and terrain.

[qmp]

I thought I read somewhere 1 fig will equal a 3 or 4 man fire team. I'll put a link here when I find it again.

[TomJag3]

Yuck, the more I read about the game the less appetizing it sounds. It sounds like AH is trying to make Warhammer for WWII boardgames. I can't think of anything worse. I've tried the Flames of War miniatures rules for 15mm, so unhistorical feeling it makes me sick. It looks like AH is doing the same.

[Hedgehobbit]

I thought I read somewhere 1 fig will equal a 3 or 4 man fire team. I'll put a link here when I find it again.
I would suspect that the designers and play testers would be using proxies as the real minis wouldn't be available. They may not even know what the final minis are going to look like.

For now I'm giving hasbro the benefit of the doubt. Of course they are going for the Flames of War market. That game is the biggest selling historical* mini game I've ever seen so it only makes sense.

Aaron

*I'll allow it since it uses historical units even though the rules are very gamey; not surprising since they are almost exactly like 40k.

[TomJag3]

Aaron, I couldn't agree more. It looks like AH is going after the FOW market. I'd prefer something historical. I guess I'll have to quit AH games and play games from real historical game companies.

[qmp]

From the "Chat Log" Thread. Not edited, just cut and paste.

Rich_Baker: Some abilities are quite historical in nature and represent unit capabilities that things "should" have... Other unit specials are a little more, well, generous and creative, for good game play. But nothing is really wacky or out of character for a WW 2 game. So the simulation value is moderate, game play is high, collectability should be high.

moderator_sinister: Rich, is infantry represented by 1 solider on a base?

smo63: Rich, who is the designers of the AA minis?

Rich_Baker: Gah, you're burying me!

Larry Harris: Hello Danzigdagger. Rich is telling us about Mini A&A.

Rich_Baker: First off: I'm the lead designer on A&A minis. My team included Jonathan Tweet, Paul Barclay, Devin Low, and Aaron Forsythe.

italian_general listens.

Rich_Baker: We got great help from a bunch of other folks in Wizards R&D.

Rich_Baker: As far as units represented on a base...

smo63: Excellent...when we will get a peek regarding the new game?

Rich_Baker: It depends. For vehicles, you're definitely talking about 1 at a time. So the Tiger mini is one Tiger tank. Most infantry guys, we sort of assume that the mini represents a fire team... say, 3 or 4 guys. But it's not explicit, and to be honest, it's not real important in game play.

[series]

Rich_Baker: It depends. For vehicles, you're definitely talking about 1 at a time. So the Tiger mini is one Tiger tank. Most infantry guys, we sort of assume that the mini represents a fire team... say, 3 or 4 guys.

That makes me suspicious. He is saying that a vehicle sculpt will have 1 vehicle at a time, but it "depends" for the rest. Grr...

I'm gonna have to assume that AH is going with one infantry per sculpt, however, for several reasons.

[Anarch]

I sure hope that there is more than one figure on each base. If one is going to play miniature games then its for the look. 5 bases with 5 guys isnt going to look very inviting with 10 tanks supporting them.

[elindo]

My guess is it will be one figure representing a fire team of 4-5 men. This is based purely on the chat log about how "it really doesn't matter from a play standpoint". This however will really let down a lot of gamers and I'm going to further guess the infantry will be out of scale relative to the vehicles. Just call me pessimistic! What would be cool though would be if they at least had multiple infantry figures represent a squad like Memoir'44! I'm not aminiatures gamer,yet, but from what I can see of FOW,the 15mm figs are pretty darn small and would present a mass production issue if they tried to put 4 figs let alone one on a base. Sheesh, I still remember the problems of 1/35 scale soldier models from my youth, 000 paint brush flash-back!

[Major Adler]

well...

1)-it appears that one infantry figure will represent a team of infantry...

2)-that infantry figure MAY NOT be in 15mm scale to match the vehicles...

3)-it has not been clarified that there will be different types of infantry per nationality...

so if this holds true...it appears to me that AH is going for the board gamer market...these issues will be very unapealling for the WWII mini wargamer...points #1 and #2 will be a total turn off...I should have thought that AH with this game would not only want to profit from the board gamer market...but the mini gamers market as well...

too bad...this game had great potential...

Adler...out..................

[mhensley]

well...

1)-it appears that one infantry figure will represent a team of infantry...

2)-that infantry figure MAY NOT be in 15mm scale to match the vehicles...

3)-it has not been clarified that there will be different types of infantry per nationality...


If any of this is true, they have lost my business for this game.

[Major Adler]

you are correct there...looks like it will in fact be a CPPBG...a - collectable playing piece board game...

Adler...out..............

[Groggy Nard]

If any of this is true, they have lost my business for this game.

Absolutely; it sounded promising until that little detail came out. Too bad, so sad -- there goes my $200 worth of preorders.

Au revoir, gentlemen ...

[Groggy Nard]

I'll just say this before leaving in a big fat disgusted huff: if AH/WOTC wants this project to have a prayer of succeeding, they'll cater closely to the historical gaming market ... the boardgamers/fantasy gamers aren't going to care that much about buying a bunch of toy soldiers, and the history gamers won't like the half-baked "historical" approach. They're going to end up satisfying neither market, and there will be (mark my words) a major fire sale of little plastic tanks and soldiers in 2006.

If the minis were historically accurate and scaled properly with the infantry, the rules could still be simplified for the board/fantasy crowd -- most historical gamers will buy the minis and throw out the rules anyway -- but to have kiddie rules and kiddie armies isn't going to satisfy anyone. Cheap, historically accurate prepainted WWII plastic minis are a major potential market.

AH/WOTC have probably missed the boat and the ocean on this one.

[Der Panzinator]

Jeez what a though crowd. :eek:

Looks like this game has been tried and convicted before it's even launched based on flimsy evidence and hersey.... :confused:

I will never understand why people feel they must publically express their negative opinions about something without ever seeing the final product.
I'm sure the people who have designed and developed the game have put a lot of time and effort into making something enjoyable for people to play. And to have that effort snubbed at before it is even seen is just uncalled for.

If you don't like it when it comes out, don't buy it!

Its just that easy... ;)

[vogless]

I'm just hoping that if it is 1 mini/ group or squad, they listen to the feedback, and change it. Honestly, I really don't know how interested I will be if this is the case. I'm looking for pre painted WWII minis. This is a great oppertunity for me to get a large amount of figures at a reasonable price and saves me the time of painting them. I'm willing to overlook ANYTHING with the rules that come with the game. I'm also willing to overlook minor things that aren't dead on accurate like paint jobs. I'm not interested in buying a single soldier at 15mm on a base, and won't even consider buying if the infantry is a larger scale than the vehicles. My opinion. From what I've seen of the vehicles though, I'm really excited and think this CAN be a big hit if they can get the infantry sorted out. C'mon AH, let's see some infantry!!

[Gspot1]

I have to agree with the above. I can hardly find any info anywhere on what figures or rule sets are going to be like. There are very few pics available and those are vehicles only and I have to say they don't look all that bad. Now I'm an old guy and have been playing Axis and Allies since the mid 80's while serving in the Army and through the 90's also. Just the thought of a AA mini game has me excited. I will wait and hold my gripes to a minimum untill I learn and see some more and then I will still buy it because I love AA.
I know there are alot of people who are passsionate about games but good gravy I don't see how there can be so much complaining at such a short time after announcing the game. I guess some people are not happy unless their flaming something on an internet forum. :)

G

[Major Adler]

Der Panzinator - my opinion is that the guys that are critical of the game at this time...because of the infantry issues...are mini wargamers that were looking forward to this game...and I would have thought that AH would have wanted to expand AA appeal to that maket while retaining the loyal board gamers...

so I guess that AH's market share studies have indicated that just having the former AA board gamers buy into the game will make it a success...or they did not properly investigate what would bring mini gamers to AA...

because if what has been said here about the infantry is true...this game is going nowhere with regards to mini gamers...

Adler...out................

[Major Adler]

a simple solution would be for AH to show an infantry piece...and if it is one soldier on a base representing a group of soldiers...AND/OR...if the infanrty are not in scale with the tanks...guess what...all of us mini gamers that were excieted about the game...will be out of here...

Adler...out..................

[Hedgehobbit]

because if what has been said here about the infantry is true...this game is going nowhere with regards to mini gamers...
If the infantry is off-scale, I sure hope they are 28mm. I'd buy them then.


Aaron

[Moderator Sinister]

I've listened to alot of comments here and I think if your looking for the die hard WWII tactical miniatures game that answers all questions of combat you may be disappointed. The A&A boardgames have many things that "don't make sense" tactically or historically in order to make things simple and quick.

I think the minis game isn't going for real life WWII combat. I think A&A minis is the game for the guy looking to crack open a blister box and be playing in 5 minutes. I'm predicting the game will be much lighter and faster than other WWII mini games. It won't be an extremely detailed game but it will play quick and be enough about WWII to be greatly interesting.

[StyxParadox]

I'm predicting the game will be much lighter and faster than other WWII mini games. It won't be an extremely detailed game but it will play quick and be enough about WWII to be greatly interesting.

If it follows other Miniture games then it will be easy to play but hard to master. It will seem almost childish to the untrained eye but as you play it will have much more depth and replay value then most board games.

I am not supprise with the inital reaction to the game and I believe many will not play but I believe this game will bring many people into war games that would not of otherwise looked at the game.

[Gspot1]

Well I'm definately not a hardcore mini wargamer but I want to be. So I'm hoping this will be a good introductory game to the genre. With its low cost I won't to invest much to see where my interest lie. Maybe if the minis are nice enough they can be used with other game rule sets.


G

[fenyan]

The press release said "15mm scale, pre-painted plastic miniatures" and "Axis & Allies Miniatures will meet and exceed our customers expectations". OK, maybe I won't fully buy into the second part but I do want to believe the first part.

What little I've seen of the game mechanics, I like (e.g. the three range bands for weapons). Also, Rich Baker's chat log comment about the unit abilities is reassuring: "But nothing is really wacky or out of character for a WW 2 game." This is good, because I don't think history needs to be sacrificed for simple/fun/playable. I think DETAIL needs to be axed, obviously. But the really good game designs will find the right balance.

[Der Panzinator]

a simple solution would be for AH to show an infantry piece...and if it is one soldier on a base representing a group of soldiers...AND/OR...if the infanrty are not in scale with the tanks...guess what...all of us mini gamers that were excieted about the game...will be out of here...

Adler...out..................

Well about 5 minutes after you posted this Adler there was a post on the other thread from Richard Baker. Unfortunately your concern about a single infantry figure per base was correct... :(

Maybe I was just in denial or something... :confused:
I really thought that AH would have enough foresight to make the infantry based with several figures so that they would be compatible with almost EVERY miniatures wargame that exists.... :mad:

I've been playing a lot of miniatures but my stuff is all 6mm scale. I don't even like 15mm but I was willing to convert to have inexpensive pre-painted figures. Oh well... It was nice to dream..... :rolleyes:

[mhensley]

Wizkids Mechwarrior game is to scale, has multiple figures per infantry base, is better painted, and is easy to play. From what I have seen and heard about this new game so far makes me think that AH is blowing it. And I am their target customer or at least I should be. I have no problem with collectable games and own several. I have several hundred dollars worth of the collectable D&D minis and I would happily buy heavily into this game too, but it doesn't look like it will be worth it.

[vogless]

I'm sure you are right on the rules Sinister. I would think that the best way to package these would be to keep the rules fun and simple and the maps that will come with the starter are BRILLIANT! I love that you can mark on them with dry-erase. Perfect for the 1st time and very casual gamers out there. The more serious gamers are going to use the rule set they prefer anyway. I would rather see the game delayed and have the infantry issue fixed then have them miss a major portion of the market for such a minor issue. If Wiz Kids can do it, so can Hasbro/AH/WoTC, whoever.

[Mokona]

Why not just create your own fire team with the infantry provided by Axis & Allies miniatures? WotC has proven they can do scale miniatures with D&D and Star Wars. I mean look at the Huge figures they've done for D&D that are twice as big as my fist compared to a little tiny guy like an imp. :eek:

[Hedgehobbit]

Why not just create your own fire team with the infantry provided by Axis & Allies miniatures?
The problems is that if each inf base countains just one 15mm mini, then it would cost over $6 per half squad*. For the cost of a squad and a half of A&AM figures you could get an entire platoon of FoW minis.


Aaron

*at 12 minis per box, $16 per box.

[Major Adler]

well...we now have part of the answer...one or two figures per base to represent a team of 4 or 5...are they 15mm?...oh well...I am out'a here...
if AH was smart...they would get with it fast to come out with a proper infantry expansion and have proper infantry in future expansions...then you might see me back...

AH you droped the ball on this one...

last transmission...

Adler...out...................

[Moderator Sinister]

I'm only going to say this...

If I judged a game by the way its presented I would have never played cheap ass games, flat top, most of the old AH wargames, or 100s of other games. I'll wait to pass judgement. There are many miniature games where the number of infantry don't seem to add up. In fact I'd venture to say, in any miniature game, the number of infantry models vs. the "historic" number for the battle would be off. If you are going to recreate d-day miniature battle game are you going to Purchase 73,000 allied Infantry? or even 24,000 3 base figures? Likely not. And even if you did we would all hear how expensive it is to recreate d-day. I know I would be complaining about that!!!!

LOL


This game is going to be HUGE and you can quote me on it!

[admiral_yamoto]

lol :D sinister complaining about AH....

anyhow, how many figures per booster, for star wars it was 7, and for D&D its 8

[SeattleGamer]

I've listened to alot of comments here and I think if your looking for the die hard WWII tactical miniatures game that answers all questions of combat you may be disappointed. The A&A boardgames have many things that "don't make sense" tactically or historically in order to make things simple and quick.

I think the minis game isn't going for real life WWII combat. I think A&A minis is the game for the guy looking to crack open a blister box and be playing in 5 minutes. I'm predicting the game will be much lighter and faster than other WWII mini games. It won't be an extremely detailed game but it will play quick and be enough about WWII to be greatly interesting.

Well, this is my first post, and I'm going to weigh in against you Sinister for one reason. I haven't seen a single post here yet that had anything to do with rules. In fact, I've read posts that said they couldn't care less about the rules. This entire thread has been about the minis themselves.

I understand the business end, and obviously as an outside, my opinion counts for nothing. I'm one of millions of possible consumers, and for that you will likely be polite. But it never ceases to amaze me how something so minor will probably cost you HALF the business you would have received.

I don't know how deep and full the coffers are at AH, but if somebody told me I could release a product and make 10 million or tweak it only slightly and earn 20 million, I'd opt for the larger profit. Call me crazy.

In my case, I'm totally new to WWII minis gaming. I decided about two weeks ago that this was a new direction for me, and I've done hours of research. I've checked out rules and hundreds of photos, and read probably a thousand posts already. And I've gotta say, a handful of tanks (always single models) surrounded by a cluster of infantry units (with 3-5 figures per base) just "looks" right. It doesn't matter if the tank represents a single vehicle or a squad of tanks, or the infantry is a half squad or a full platoon of 50 guys. It looks right.

Having one lone infantry figure on a stand the size of a penny is just going to look wrong. With your rules, I'm sure it doesn't matter. If a "unit" takes a hit and is removed, it won't matter if it had 4 infantry figures or 1, it was a "unit" and it's removed. And A&A players won't care that it only had one figure. So that market segment you were targeting is going to be happy.

But the other HALF of the market, who would have purchased your minis by the truckload and then used them in a game of Flames of War, Battlefront, Blitzkrieg Commander or any one of the other rules sets . . . those folks are going to look at your infantry and say "What is that thing?"

So for all your market research, it looks to some of us like you (AH) totally missed a huge segment of your potential customer base, simply because you decided that infantry would be one smidge of plastic on a base. This isn't to say that your game won't be "light" and fun. It's just that the door to a huge market was intentially left closed because you ignored how the infantry figures would "look" when standing next to a tank.

I have yet to commit to a single WWII Minis ruleset, but was leaning towards any set that supported 15mm figures specifically because you were going to be coming out with figures soon. I was hoping to spare myself the expense of some of the other minis lines by using your figures. That apparently is no longer an option for me. Sad really, because I have a long history with Avalon Hill, and would dearly love to spend my hobby dollars on your products.

If your starter sets were all going to have the same contents, I'd have picked up 4 just to start, and then a good two dozen of your fist expansion sets, probably twice that number. Not for the rules, but for the minis.

[dirtshredder]

I also have recently choosen to start wargaming WWII. I have been looking at various rule sets and at the different metal mini manufacturers, and then I heard about A&AM.
I am very excited about some low cost painted miniatures that I will use with other rule sets. I am sure I will check out the rules that come with the figures also. In my serches for minatures I noticed somthing.
All of the infantry I have seen always comes one to a base, even BattleFront ( Flames of War) has single infantry units, but they are glued to a larger base in groups of 3 or 4, the base being included in the pack of infantry. AH is not breaking from the pack as far as infantry basing is concerned. The real excitement is the low cost and prepainted nature of the miniaturs.
I'm glad they are putting them out and from what I see so far, it is a very good thing. As details and pictures come out I will be better able to form a solid opinion on them.

[Der Panzinator]

SeattleGamer makes some excellent points.
I'm in a similar position myself as being fairly new to the miniatures wargaming scene. I already started using 6mm microarmour but I never have enough time with work and kids to really get them painted good.
I too was very excited about the prospect of getting some pre-painted miniatures that I could use for the new A&A minis game, plus some other games that I play or would like to try. (btw, SeattleGamer you should really try Blitzkrieg Commander. A great set of simple rules with a great feel for command and control. Plus it has tremendous support from Pete the designer on their website.)

The main point is that there are a lot of people already coming out to let AH know that they are interested in the figures themselves. I know that AH wants to launch a successful game but I don't understand why they wouldn't want to take the opportunity to make a killing on the people who would most likely buy a TON of this stuff. It just makes no sense to me... :confused:

I played Axis & Allies since about 1986 and have probably played hundreds of times. During all that time if there was a "collectible" game launched I would have never spent a bunch of money building armies and collecting special pieces. Now, however, I am hooked on the whole miniatures games and would love to build a huge army and push the pieces around my kitchen table in blissful happiness...

My point is that the typical boardgamer has no interest in spending over $100 for ANY game since they can get 2 or 3 boardgames with nearly a thousand plastic pieces. And $100 is actually cheap in the miniatures world for a lot of people.
I just don't follow the marketing strategy here. Where are you getting your research from Avalon Hill/WoTC??? It seems like the "target" audience was missed by a mile on this one based on preliminary feedback of customers at this forum. Maybe we can hear from someone on this board who has never played any miniatures games and find out if they intend to buy a hundred or more dollars of these game packs? If you would have asked me about 2 years ago I would have said hell no... At the time I was strictly into playing boardgames and about 80% of the time that game was Axis & Allies. At that time I would have been your target audience and I would not have been interested in buying a bunch of these pieces. I might have tried out the starter pack and maybe one or two boosters since it would still be on par with a typical boardgame though. But that doesn't come close to the HUGE buying power that the avid miniatures wargamers would sink into this stuff.

Man, let me drive the ship for a couple of months and give me a cut of the profits!!! I just can't believe that so much potential will likely be squandered away because some "bean-counters" at WoTC said "Oh no!!! Based on our calculations of profit to cost analysis you can only put one unit of plastic on a base to match our tight-ass marketing goals..."
Sheesh!!! Who put them in charge of making decisions anyway???

I think that people are passionate about this right now because they see this as an opportunity to turn the ship to a new course before it reaches its destination. This is our one and only chance to make a plea to change something that is obviously very important to many of us. It may be too late and the pieces may already be assembled at the factory though... :(

I'm sure someone will probably think that I'm *****ing and whining but their wrong. I will still decide whether or not to buy this product when it comes out. And I might decide that a single figure per base is fine for the rules as they will be written. But I damn sure won't be buying them to build my primary collection of WWII wargame miniatures. And that is the main point that everyone that is *****ing is trying to make. And that will be where WoTC has missed the opportunity to really make this whole game series penetrate the gaming market like it has the potential to do.

[pellulo]

For me when it comes to buying that rare one of a kind mini, much less a few units to build up that Panzar Army, I rather spend the money on a new board game ( I already got all the minis I need in H.O. scale, if I ever got to built that Airfix D-Day H.O. Kit, I could saturate my Axis & Allies D-Day Game with minis, much less any board game with H.O. parts, at a good selection, much less cheaper, than having to buy the official parts), thanks, Pellulo

[Sinister]

certainly you should tell AH what you want. They do listen!

I'm just saying try the game first. If your only gripe is the infantry thing that's not the end of the world and, yes, maybe AH will release expansion packs with more men. Perhaps this whole thing is to keep the mini cost low until AH sees how it sells?

Frankly I'm a little worried by Rich saying that adding more infantry would raise the cost of the mini. Some of you may have tons o cash laying around but I don't and sense its not life scale anyway why would I care how many are on the base? Also I'm not real sure how minis are so "interchangable" as alot of people are indicating. I don't own world war II minis but I own thousands of fantasy minis, and even in the same scale mage knight is not interchangable with Warhammer or Reaper minis.

So the compliant I'm seeing most here is "I want to buy cheap models to play flames of war" but if the add infantry it raises the cost of the minis, also just how interchangable are the minis? Are flames of war models on round bases?

Also I completely disagree that flames of war is the target auidence here. Flames of War is a hard core minatures tactical battle system. Why would AH want to compete with a game that just came out and is doing well? Like everything else AH these days the market is much lighter. The WANT to bring in, not the die hards who already play, but the people who would be interested in a less intimidating game. Like A&A its meant to be that bridging game between party/strategy games and the hard core wargames. The game will be cheap (in this regard better than flames of war), it'll be quick and easy to learn (better than flames of war). Ok it's not going to be as detailed but I'll take that over being another expensive and complex game.

[SeattleGamer]

First, thanks for the tip Panzinator. I have done a bit of research of late, and have narrowed down my rules-set choice to a few, including Blitzkrieg Commander. In fact, I'll likely get it plus one other set. BKC because it has NO other expansions or supplements, and then perhaps something either a bit more detailed, or a bit less, just for the contrast. Probably less (given that it's harder to find the time to play longer games).

Sinister . . . to answer your question, all of the games I've researched, and by all I mean every single "squad" or "platoon" or "company" level game shows infantry on stands with typically 3-4 figures on it. This includes some very popular games:
Battlefront WWII
Blitzkrieg Commander
Command Decision III
Crossfire
Flames of War
Mein Panzer
Rapid Fire
Spearhead
WWII Micro Armor

Machine gun and command units are often just a pair of figures. And it doesn't matter if the game in question uses three bases of 3-4 figures each to actually equal 9-12 guys, or if it uses two sections to equal 12, or one section to equal an entire squad or platoon, the base itself, the lowest common denominator has 3-4 infantry figures on it.

When you cluster three or four such bases by a tank, it just looks right. It's an AFV providing covering fire and support to a squad. Forget that the single tank is supposed to be 3 tanks, and the stands each a platoon, visually, it just looks right.

So if AH releases infantry on bases with 1 figure on a base just to make it easy to pick it up when it's killed in action, it's fine for game mechanics, but it will look wrong. Heck, even in Memoir '44 they use 4 infantry figures to equal a unit!

If the infantry are going to be on their own tiny footprint, such that a person could glue 3-4 on their own bases and make a proper section, then fine. But I'm guessing they would tip over too easy, so they will be molded on to something the size of a penny. Which means lots of hacking to cut them off and then try and glue them to a proper stand.

And I think you are wrong about AH not competing with FOW. My research indicates that Flames of War is a fast playing beer and pretzels game, which looks good, it's fun to play, and it's not all that historical with regard to mimicing WWII tactics or outcomes. People love it, but it's way more a game, with no real pretense at being a simulation. My guess is that A&AM is exactly competing with FOW. A "light" game.

And I think Der Panzinator is right on with his estimate of how much gamers are willing to pay for a game, compared to miniatures wargamers. When a board game reaches $75-$100 it better be the best thing since sliced bread or people turn away. They want everything needed to play for that much. Whereas I'm going to drop $100 easy on a set of WWII minis rules alone (thinking BKC plus FOW and a few supplements). Then I'll drop another $200 x 2 to pick up the 8th Army British and German Afrika Korps company boxes so I can get in a few games. I'll be $500 in before I've played one time, and I'll go into it knowing that I'll need to fork over double that in the next year to add more variety to both sides. And that's JUST for North Afrika. If it's really fun, and my buddies like it, there's always the Eastern Front, or the Italian front, or the Western Front, etc.

So A&AM could be looking at getting $1000 of my hard-earned dollars in the next 12 months, if the MINIS are good. If the rules are good, it's icing on the cake. But it's the MINIS that will make me a customer. And I suspect there are thousands of us out there who feel the same way.

I really, really hope that AH will release something that TONS of EXISTING WWII minis games want to have. It will drive sales through the roof, and lead to more expansions. You make tones of money, we get a huge variety of well sculpted, pre-painted minis. That's a win-win in my book.

[vogless]

Well said!

[Anarch]

And I think you are wrong about AH not competing with FOW. My research indicates that Flames of War is a fast playing beer and pretzels game, which looks good, it's fun to play, and it's not all that historical with regard to mimicing WWII tactics or outcomes. People love it, but it's way more a game, with no real pretense at being a simulation. My guess is that A&AM is exactly competing with FOW. A "light" game.

A brief introduction I feel is appropriate at this time: I am a lifetime wargamer of both table and board games. I am a History teacher at the High School level and am currently working on my masters degree in Military History: WWII Studies. To say that I have played several WWII mini games is a vast understatement. So where is all of this going you ask?
I have been playing FoW for about a year. And the assumption that its just a light "beer & pretzel" game with little regard to WWII strategy or tactics is a myth that has been perpetuated by the grognards who refuse to give up their volumes of rules, their 100 or so charts which detail each and every thing that could possibly come up in a battle, and their desire to finish a game in less than 12+ hours. The game is detailed enough for 90% of the market and allows one to play a large game in just 2-4 hours. The outcomes are the same as if you had been playing one of the "dinosaur" games which the grognards relish.
This brings me to my point (I know many of you are glad this rant is almost over). People play miniature games for the look. Plain and simple. I have been playing A & A for most of my life and when I heard they were doing this game there was never a doubt that I would get some. Will I use the minis in my other 15mm games? Probably if I want to try out an army before purchasing (I enjoy painting my own). But the main usage of the figures outside of the actual A&ACMG is to put small forces together to allow others to play miniature games.
We (the gaming industry and those who support it) have to do something to attract more mature youth to the hobby. We are not going to do this with wargames, on little pieces of cardboard, which take months to read the rules and days to play. We are going to attract the next generation of gamers with miniatures, either painted by the gamer or prepainted. For this I applaud FoW, A&A, and any other game which allows people to play wargames and enjoy their selves at the same time!

[Der Panzinator]

Well said!

ditto! :D

[TomJag3]

ditto! :D

Agreed, excellent analysis.

Anarch, I've played FOW. I hate it because it doesn't provide the right feel for WWII tactics. The very worst thing that I hate about it is armor To Hit. There is very little difference in accuracy between a 75 L24 and a 75 L70. A Tiger tank was expected to get a first round hit out to 1200m. I do like their penetration system but the game involves rolling too many dice. I've played rule sets back in the mid '70's that were quick, easy to play, and had a feel for the era(WRG rules). FOW is a beer and pretzels game for people who enjoy rolling dice and looking at miniatures. It's Warhammer 40K set in WWII. It's fine for getting young people interested in WWII and gaming, but it's not for anyone who's a serious student of how and why decisions were made on the battlefields of WWII.

FOW will be a direct competitor with A&A Minis. Neither game is particularly historically accurate. A&A will appeal to those who don't have terrain or a large board to play on.

I don't like the randomness of your purchases. If I want to put together a PzIIIj tank platoon, I don't want to get a bunch of Marders.

[Redcoat]

Fabulous post Seatle Gamer!

[SeattleGamer]

Anarch

I base my comments regarding FoW not on actual game play, but on the many posts I recently read on the subject. And I agree with you, those posts may be coming from die-hard, multi-table look-up gamers, and thus I'm getting the wrong picture. It may very well be that FoW is a fast-playing yet surprisingly accurate simulation of combined arms operations in WWII. Nothing would make me happier, truely.

I have played many games that took all day long to complete, and many more that could be played to a successful conclusion in 2-4 hours. But as I age, and my kids grow up, I find I have less time to study new rules, and less time to employ them. I tend to go for easier to understand, faster play with "some" attempt at historical accuracy, and shy away from the more complex games that require a longer commitment of time to play.

I chose Blitzkrieg Commander because it sounded, all things considered, to be precisely what I was looking for. My runner up is FoW. If BKC had required a half-dozen sourcebooks to go with the main rules, I would have called it quits at BKC. But since the latter is a single book, the former are now on my "to buy" list. Everything about them fits my requirements; easy-to-learn and fast play. If it turns out that they are ALSO a good historical play, then so much the better.

After re-reading your post, I don't see where you disagreed with me that A&AM is likely going right up against FoW in the market though. Your only disagreement appears to be that you believe it is more of a simulation and accurate representation of WWII combat than others. In the end, we all have our own scale by which we judge such things, but I hope you're right.

Good luck on your masters. Man, if it had ever occured to me that I could get a degree in something like WWII Military History I'd have never dropped out! I wonder if U-Dub has a program in military history?

[Der Panzinator]

SeattleGamer,


Check out the BlitzkriegCommander forum and Pete just said he will start offering battlegroup packs! Basically it will just be a set of figures from probably Minifigs and some bases along with a small painting guide. Nice addition though for anyone starting out.

[Anarch]

After re-reading your post, I don't see where you disagreed with me that A&AM is likely going right up against FoW in the market though. Your only disagreement appears to be that you believe it is more of a simulation and accurate representation of WWII combat than others. In the end, we all have our own scale by which we judge such things, but I hope you're right.

Good luck on your masters. Man, if it had ever occured to me that I could get a degree in something like WWII Military History I'd have never dropped out! I wonder if U-Dub has a program in military history?

I didnt say it was a simulation... but the outcome is pretty accurate.
This is a quote from a friend of mine that pretty much sums up our feelings on the accuracy of the rules:
"What I do want from a historical game is a fun experience in which I can reasonably expect a historical result. If things come out as one would expect they would have happened if the forces in the game met under the conditions of portrayed on the table top, then the game is fairly successful in mimicking history, which is all ANY game can hope for.
My point is this: In FOW heavy tanks are nasty and hard to defeat, light tanks and armored cars are fast, annoying, and die easily. Infantry in the open dies, infantry dug in is very hard to root out. Concealed AT guns ruin your day, Artillery and Airplanes are deadly, although said aircraft are not always available when needed.
In every book I have ever read about WWII those things are true, so what is so unhistorical about a game in which they are also true? "

As far as A&AM directly going up against FoW. It very well may... but I dont think it will on two points.
1. Play Wise: I dont think that A&AM are going to have any shape or form of an organization list or chart. So its going to be more of a pick and play exactly what you want game. Now is this a bad thing? No...but were straying from that "Historical accuracy" point even more. Will I play A&AM... more than likely yes. It will be a good game to play with my kids, especially my youngest, a 13 year old daughter who I am about to teach to paint whereas to embarrass some of these kids who think they can paint just because they get the paint somewhat close to a mini and the other ppl who say how good they are hoping to get a compliment back in return for their substandardly (dont know if thats a word but it is now) painting.
2. Mini wise:Yes the A&A minis look nice and they are painted and I will end up buying probably way too many and end up in a divorce since the wife has already said that 20 WWII games are more than enough (how she came up with the idea that 20 is enough is beyond me). But I will more than likely buy them to:
a. play the A&A game of course, but more importantly
b. I will buy them where I can play small games with or against armies that I either dont want to paint or havent gotten painted yet.

But IMO Battlefront makes the BEST looking WWII figures in 15mm that I have ever seen. Whether I get fed up with the "grognards" *****ing and complaining and eventually move to a set of rules that no one has ever heard of or continue to play FoW...I will continue to buy the BF minis. The only comparison on this subject is that they are both minis. One would not compare the Plastic D&D figs with Rackham Confrontation figures would they?

My scale for judging the A&A game will wait until September 16th. But for now I will continue playing FoW and my set of 25mm WWII skirmish rules (which have yet to be published, dont know if I want to with all the critics out there waiting like wolfs to tear them apart) :rolleyes:

[JasonR1]

Hello,

First post here, but reading this, I had to speak up.


Miniatures, more than other games are often played due to their aesthetic appeal, not just game play.

This aesthetic aspect plays a big part in their appeal. To ignore something as significant as not having multiple guys (at least 3) per base to represent a squad, or fire team is a big mistake, even if the scale is off.

Add to that the historical or “real-world” association that the consumer will have with a historically based minis game, and you are really asking for trouble.

I think even this board is indicative of the cross-section of the consumer base that are not really miniature gamers as many of them have admitted, who have an issue with this single man per base, off-scale choice.

Keep the game at scale, reinforce the illusion of playing with multiple units at the squad level, and you keep the general consumer/buyer immersed, whether or not the rules are historically accurate.

Finally, I think folks are voicing their concerns over this issue on the board in hopes that someone at AH will hear them and correct the mistake.

-Jason

[SeattleGamer]

Der Panzer . . . thanks for the info! I'll be heading there post-haste to check it out. My guess is though, that it will be available in the UK, so unless/until a US distributor is found, I'll be left assembling my own packs of figs.

Anarch . . . I suspect you and I would get along famously. I agree with everything you said except the bit about A&AM not competing with FOW. And it's probably not something we'll really ever get to know the "true" answer to. My take is, forget just about all the variables and boil a game down to it's few, basic elements.

#1 - Subject (in this case WWII)
#2 - Treatment (in this case, miniatures)
#3 - Complexity (in this case, they probably differ, one being "Easy" one "Moderate")
#4 - Scale (in this case, individual tanks and sections of infantry)
#5 - Cost (how much goes out of pocket to play, how much more to expand options).

I think in four out of five they are very close, thus, I think they are competitors.

Think of it like they do TV shows competing for an audience. If you are trying to grab the 18-25 male crowd in your timeslot, and I am as well, you may go with a comedy featuring a bikini making factory and the models that work there, and I may go with an hour-long drama of space cadets fighting off invading aliens. People could argue that we are totally different (comedy versus drama, etc), but in the end, the "business end" we are going toe-to-toe.

So A&AM is, in my opinion, climbing into the ring with FOW. And if they had opted to base their figures anything close to just about every other minis game out there, they could have not ONLY targeted their initial core audience, but probably doubled their sales by tapping into a much larger audience who would have used their minis for other games.

And Jason . . . That is precisely why I'm here posting comments. Not blasting the game itself (don't even know the rules, only have a glimpse or two of a few minis, and those do look very nice). It's probably fuin to play and all, which means the designers and developers and publishers and sculptors and writers and artists can all pat themselves on the back and be proud. They should be. I would be.

But this ONE decision out of many - to base one infantry on a stand - will be the key to turning away a second vast audience of customers. And that's a pity.

[vogless]

I hope we will get a glimps of the infantry soon. Maybe they won't look bad, maybe they will. Either way, I'm VERY interested to actually see them.

[admiral_yamoto]

so i guess its a minaitures war:

D&DM- Warhammer fantasy

SWM- Warhammer 40k

A&AM- Flams of War

[Anarch]

I agree about wanting to see the infantry... I would think that out of a box probably half will be infantry... buy lots of boxes and they will add up quickly.

I suppose you are right Seattlegamer... They are competting for the same $$$... the miniature $$. I dont think that many FoW players will suddenly stop playing FoW to play A&AM. But I do think that many FoW players, along with most other WWII 15mm wargame players, will pick up a few packs to see the quality of the figures and that may put a crimp in BF's business. But i would suspect that it would really impact the sales of some of the other 15mm maniufacturers whose product is not up to the detail of BF's.
I cant wait to get some. Since suffering from a recent series of small strokes, my sight has diminished and one eye is legally blind, so although I still paint, it takes much longer to do so. Thus I am concentrating on my primary army and not the other 3 (growing almost every day) when it comes to painting. This will allow me to set up some smaller forces of stuff for demo purposes while I get more units painted.

[Major Adler]

1)-not a bad paint job...

2)-a bit too large when compared to the M18 he is posed with...maybe 18mm?...

3)-holding his rifle with one hand at the trigger...YIKES!...looks like he is deer hunting...a terrible combat pose...

as some have already posted...AH should take a look at the Battle Front figures...and learn...or you are not going to capture the minis market that is out there already...

the gamers that are going to buy into this game with the tanks/figures as is...would still have done so if the infantry had been in scale and mounted 4 or 5 to a base...the mini gamers are not going to buy into this game for those said reasons...

those out there that are going to buy into the game are saying...so what!...it is called market share and profit and $...this game would have had a much longer life had AH done the research and embraced the huge mini gamer market that is already out there...

will I purchase any of these AH minis?...yes I probably will pick up some of the VEHICLES on the secondary market...or trade Star Wars minis for vehicles I want...but buy boosters?...because of the number of infantry per base and scale- NO WAY!!!...

AH...fix the number of infantry per base problem...and keep everything in scale...AND...you will have a very very long run with this game...capture two huge gaming markets...and make a lot of $...

Adler...out......................

[Der Panzinator]

Where did you find a picture of an infantry figure???

A link would be nice. :cool:

[Major Adler]

I did not see it on-line...it is in Scrye Magazine...

Adler...out...............

[vogless]

could you scan it in?

[Major Adler]

I do not have the ability to scan pics...

Adler...out...................

[Kaufschtick]

as some have already posted...AH should take a look at the Battle Front figures...and learn...or you are not going to capture the minis market that is out there already...

the gamers that are going to buy into this game with the tanks/figures as is...would still have done so if the infantry had been in scale and mounted 4 or 5 to a base...the mini gamers are not going to buy into this game for those said reasons...

those out there that are going to buy into the game are saying...so what!...it is called market share and profit and $...this game would have had a much longer life had AH done the research and embraced the huge mini gamer market that is already out there...

will I purchase any of these AH minis?...yes I probably will pick up some of the VEHICLES on the secondary market...or trade Star Wars minis for vehicles I want...but buy boosters?...because of the number of infantry per base and scale- NO WAY!!!...

AH...fix the number of infantry per base problem...and keep everything in scale...AND...you will have a very very long run with this game...capture two huge gaming markets...and make a lot of $...

Adler...out......................

I agree 100% with this post.

[Shrapnelsmile]

Greetings all, I'm new around here. Been miniature gaming since I could ditch school and get away with it.

First, I'm disappointed about the infantry sitatuation as well; as I mentioned on MW Realms, the first thing I thought of after reading the announcement was opening a booster and pulling small bases of figs w/clusters of infantry each. Considering how good the paint job looks in Scrye, I would of been in Heaven. Seriously.

But the fact of the matter is Rich and the crew have read our posts, and they have most likely had THE meeting, with only two real possible outcomes for now:

"we screwed up. Let's check into it later, but forward march"

or, more likely,

"we did what we needed/wanted to do for reasons X & Y, so forward march."

Seriously, do you guys demanding they rectify immediately think they're not in production already and they can just scrap years of work?

It said is Scrye that you can have multiple (at least two anyway) infantry squads per Hex. Although we all are are at least a bit bummed, isn't it possible because of good mechanics and rules we all could just enjoy the game for what it will be? It very well may be an absolute blast.

Just a thought, not a criticism gentlemen. Because remember: other game designers are reading these forums.

[ArtBraune]

I do not have the ability to scan pics...

Adler...out...................

Adler,

What is the issue # of Scrye the article is in?

I can go pick it up and scan the article tomorrow...

Ciao!
Art

[Shrapnelsmile]

Darn Art, I'm not sure. I'm surprised no one has scanned it already. I checked it out at Barnes & Noble; it is the current issue. If there is a B&N near you grab it there; all the mag merch is on planagrams and every store in the country should have only the right one displayed.

Note: It does not say anything about the game on the cover. There's Green in the lettering I think. Nothing about Angelina Jolie or how to keep a woman satisfied in bed.

If you want to wait until tomorrow, I can try and let you know the number then from work. Because a random Scrye is $5 you will never, ever get back in your life.

[JasonR1]

Shrapnel.

You bring up a good point about production and what the probable awareness/response may be from the company. It may seem like a small thing, but I think it will in fact impact negatively on sales and could hurt future marketing.

However, I think the hope was/is that due to the fact that none of the infantry figures have been seen as of yet, that there may still be some time to correct the mistake. Of course if they are done and in the warehouse, well that may be that.

Having said that, wouldn’t it be a true sign of customer dedication and marketing strength if Avalon Hill delayed the production in a public effort to meet their consumer’s expectations? That in of itself would be a public-relations bonanza; particularly as other game companies have been chided for their lack of concern. Such a move in of itself would be well worth the small delay and associated cost. Especially if they plan a long-term run of this game.

-Jason

[Shrapnelsmile]

Jason I think it would be huge for them. But it would require someone very, very high up, someone extremely far removed from the love of gaming we share, to sign those papers and toss that investment of time and money. I'd love to see it happen, but my boss is pretty far removed from what I do, and he looks at me askance for taking a 15 minute break.

It's fun to debate, but from a business standpoint, the chances I'd bet are less than 1%

What they may do is make a run and ride the gravy train with what they have in mind thru 2006, and then swing around with a revision core set, like Mage Knight or Mechwarrior, and do it right.

Keep in mind they can't exactly change their plans for the terrain/board either. 2" hexes. How cool would it be if the infantry squads in later sets came on exactly a 2" hex base...only one squad per movement area, but honestly that is precisely what I first envisioned. Any thoughts on that one?

[Major Adler]

Mage Knight and Mechwarrior...those words releated to any game are a kiss of death...

what AH should do is make the following announcement...*the December expansion WILL feature infantry mounted 4 to a base*...

EVERYONE will be happy...AH will double the market share captured by this game...and tripple the longevity of this game...

that all equals boosters sold out , a big fat profit and lots of $ for AH...

Adler...out.....................

[Shrapnelsmile]

Infantry pic is in Scrye # 85

[Anarch]

Adler...out.....................

I thought you left a long time ago???

[skeevo666]

Its seems a little odd that for more than 25 years fans of A&A who have been content that one Infantry piece represents 1,000's of soldiers are now bent out of shape by one Infantry piece representing 4 or 5 . . . .

[elindo]

I thought you left a long time ago???

He's already making plans to play in Tournaments! Looks like we'll never be rid of the "Adler...out" ***** and moan sessions.

[JasonR1]

Its seems a little odd that for more than 25 years fans of A&A who have been content that one Infantry piece represents 1,000's of soldiers are now bent out of shape by one Infantry piece representing 4 or 5 . . . .


Wow, that is a big mistake at this scale. You can’t compare them at all.

In a squad level game there is a basic convention of visual cues that are important for not only player immersion but also to keep things straight on the game table. That convention is that One per base = One, more than one per base = multiple. The reason is related not only to the scale but also the “real-world” association that the player has at this level. Any game at this scale, is attempting reinforce the illusion of playing with multiple units at the squad level, and you keep the general consumer/buyer immersed by doing so, due to the basic visual cues that he sees.

In a grand strategic game such as Axis and Allies, with the map of the World in front you as the backdrop, you begin with a totally different set of presumptions, that are so far removed, that I can't even begin to take the time to lay them out. In any event that difference should be rather clear.

-Jason

[Anarch]

He's already making plans to play in Tournaments! Looks like we'll never be rid of the "Adler...out" gripe and moan sessions.
Imagine that! I would have never thought that he would have wanted to make this into a competitive tourney game instead of a fun wargame.

[Anarch]

Its seems a little odd that for more than 25 years fans of A&A who have been content that one Infantry piece represents 1,000's of soldiers are now bent out of shape by one Infantry piece representing 4 or 5 . . . .
Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. This is not a board game like A&A, this is not a miniatures representing brigades or entire regiments as in Battle Cry or Memoire are. This is a MINIATURE WARGAME! And if they want to get into the miniature wargame business they need to appeal to first, MINIATURE WARGAMERS! I do not know what your gaming background is, but in my 25 years of serious wargaming I do know this: the thing that sets miniature wargamers apart from other gamers is how it looks on the table. Not trying to be an elitist here or nothing but we dont spend hours painting & modelling minis and terrain to not care how they look.
Now this is not as big a selling point to me as other factors which have been discussed here but let us not forget that this is a collectable miniature game and as such should be treated as one.

[XAos]

Not trying to be an elitist here or nothing but we dont spend hours painting & modelling minis and terrain to not care how they look. Now this is not as big a selling point to me as other factors which have been discussed here but let us not forget that this is a collectable miniature game and as such should be treated as one.
I think you stated the flaw in your own logic. With the phrase I underlined above. With A&A minis we won't "spend hours painting & modelling minis" thats the whole point :cool:

I don't think there is a "defined" dividing line between minis games & boardgames. Fo me it has always been in the use of a "map-board" instead of a tabletop. With minis games you use a ruler to measure movement & ranges. With board games you count squares, hexagons or areas.
So with a board game you never, ever get arguments of the form; "You can't charge because your 6.01 inches away and your charge speed is only 6in." :eek:
A & A minis sits both sides of that definition. Since the starter clearly includes hex maps. While a lot of customers will obviously consider using the minis for their favorite tabletop rules system (e.g. FoW)

[bsantucci]

This is going to be a great way to get new younger people involved. :p

[TomJag3]

XAos, you're missing the point that Anarch is driving at. That point is the scale of the game. With the minis, AH is using 1 vehicle representing 1 vehicle. When you're getting to that scale, using 1 infantryman to represent a squad just doesn't look right. It just feels wrong to have one piece of equipment representing 1 piece of equipment and 1 guy representing a squad/fireteam.

Even Squad Leader had more than one guy drawn on the squad counters to represent that the counter stood for more than one individual. Leader counters had one person and their name to represent that leader.

[Major Adler]

for a company releasing a minis game...

an IN SCALE minis game = $$$$$$$$$$$$...

an OUT OF SCALE minis game = layoffs...

Adler...out...........................

[XAos]

[QUOTE=TomJag3]XAos, you're missing the point that Anarch is driving at. QUOTE]

I see the point, I just don't see a problem.
Most infantry will be commons, so you'll inevitably get more than you need. (You always do in collectable games)
Just glue 3 rifleman on a base & add some railway-flock for scenary.
Or not, if you don't want to waste time on assembly.

As to the visual aesthetic's of the game. I can't begin to guess at those until I see a mapboard with a typical "in-game" setup. It may be that these individual infantry figures end up being stacked so closely together in actual play that it looks like fireteams anyway.

[Arnminster]

If this game plays the same as D&D Minis/Star Wars Minis then you most likely will not want your figures adjacent to each other because of Blast Effects that can take out multiple units at the same time though at the same time you want your units close enough together that they function as a team.

[vogless]

I saw the Scry picture today. The infantryman seemed to be the right scale. The pose was rather odd, but the paint job wasn't half bad for the size. Awsome if you consider the time it would take to do yourself. I guess I could use the infantry as is, but I still want to see the expansions go to more men/base.

[JasonR1]

I have been a big proponent of the multi-guy per base thing, but early today it occurred to me that there may be a game reason for the one-per base. Recall that it was stated that they would represent 3 to 4 men. The squads may still require 3 single independently based figures which would = 9 to 12 men. (although Russian squads tended to be larger.). However, there is an upside and that is flexibility and hit tracking.

So you have three independently based figures that when they take hits, they are simply removed and therefore affect firepower etc... It could be an easy way for AH to create flexibility (ie you could incorporate an extra MG or a vetern fire-team etc..) and track casualties without a lot of bookkeeping. Now this is just speculation, but that may be in fact what our game. It may in fact be a clean way of tracking casualties and incorporating flexible squad management, instead of putting a coin or little plastic “hats” on the infantry to show hits.

-Jason

[TomJag3]

The downside is when you figure the cost of the plastic figs compared to metal, when you're getting a pack of pieces site unseen, it's no bargain. You have to figure that there will have to be a lot of infantry figs in those packs, if 3 figs equal one squad. Trying to fill out specific types of units will be tough.

Starter Pack: 12 figs for $25. 9 Infantry and 3 vehicles/guns? Not that bad of a price until you consider that you don't know what you'll be getting. I don't want a jagdpanther if I'm trying to set up some Stalingrad scenarios.

I can buy a dozen 15mm painted metal infantry for $15.
Painted artillery is $7, armor/vehicles are $15.

The advantage is that I can pick the equipment or type of troops that I want. If I'm wanting to fill out a Russian heavy machine gun section, I don't have to keep spending $25 until I get lucky.

If I paint my own, the price is halved. I can paint a platoon of tanks in a couple of hours, with the camouflage schemes. I can do 50 infantry on a Saturday. The neat thing is that I can put together the formations for the time period that I want to play.

[ArtBraune]

The downside is when you figure the cost of the plastic figs compared to metal, when you're getting a pack of pieces site unseen, it's no bargain. You have to figure that there will have to be a lot of infantry figs in those packs, if 3 figs equal one squad. Trying to fill out specific types of units will be tough.

Starter Pack: 12 figs for $25. 9 Infantry and 3 vehicles/guns? Not that bad of a price until you consider that you don't know what you'll be getting. I don't want a jagdpanther if I'm trying to set up some Stalingrad scenarios.

I can buy a dozen 15mm painted metal infantry for $15.
Painted artillery is $7, armor/vehicles are $15.

The advantage is that I can pick the equipment or type of troops that I want. If I'm wanting to fill out a Russian heavy machine gun section, I don't have to keep spending $25 until I get lucky.

If I paint my own, the price is halved. I can paint a platoon of tanks in a couple of hours, with the camouflage schemes. I can do 50 infantry on a Saturday. The neat thing is that I can put together the formations for the time period that I want to play.

Tom,

If my three and a half year old son drops a Battlefront/FoW Tiger on the ground - I might need a defibrilator, with these - not so much.

Ciao!
Art

[XAos]

The downside is when you figure the cost of the plastic figs compared to metal, when you're getting a pack of pieces site unseen, it's no bargain. You have to figure that there will have to be a lot of infantry figs in those packs, if 3 figs equal one squad. Trying to fill out specific types of units will be tough.

Starter Pack: 12 figs for $25. 9 Infantry and 3 vehicles/guns? Not that bad of a price until you consider that you don't know what you'll be getting. I don't want a jagdpanther if I'm trying to set up some Stalingrad scenarios.

I can buy a dozen 15mm painted metal infantry for $15.
Painted artillery is $7, armor/vehicles are $15.

The advantage is that I can pick the equipment or type of troops that I want. If I'm wanting to fill out a Russian heavy machine gun section, I don't have to keep spending $25 until I get lucky.


With SWM & D&Dminis you can easily buy the specific figures you want on ebay. I presume the same will be true of A&A minis. So if you only want to own figures for 1 theatre of war (russian front) or 1 time-period (stalingrad) it will be cheaper to buy them as singles. The main "plus" on plastic minis is the massive reduction in "cost of ownership" in terms of your spare(gaming) time.
With 15mm metal minis, it takes a couple of weeks to paint 1 battlegroup. and each game I play wastes another 10 to 15 mins, just packing the figures up so I can transport them without destroying that "expensive" paint work. With A&A minis it will take me about 20 mins to open & sort a case of figures. At which point I own half a dozen battlegroups. And the minis are sufficiently light & tough that I will pack them for transport in about 2 mins (at least thats true of the D&D minis). The total timed saved becomes impressive, particularly those last 10mins of gaming just before your FLGS/games club closes for the evening.

[TomJag3]

I guess I'd rather paint than spend my time watching E-Bay, hunting for something I want, then bidding on it and monitoring the bidding. Painting the minis gives me an opportunity to look at them at times when I'm not gaming. Because we play at the home of a distributor, I can pick up the minis that I want, when I want them.

I don't have a problem transporting the minis, I've got desk organizer trays that stack in a plastic box, 5 trays per box. I can get a battlegroup in a tray.

[ArtBraune]

I guess I'd rather paint than spend my time watching E-Bay, hunting for something I want, then bidding on it and monitoring the bidding. Painting the minis gives me an opportunity to look at them at times when I'm not gaming. Because we play at the home of a distributor, I can pick up the minis that I want, when I want them.

I don't have a problem transporting the minis, I've got desk organizer trays that stack in a plastic box, 5 trays per box. I can get a battlegroup in a tray.

Tom,

Could you snap a pic of this setup? Curious to see how this works...

Thanks!
Art

[XAos]

I guess I'd rather paint than spend my time watching E-Bay, hunting for something I want, then bidding on it and monitoring the bidding.
As you have spotted the "bid & wait" method is not a time (or money) effecient way to use ebay for getting single minis.
What I do is hunt for a supllier with lots of buy-it-now stuff at reasonable prices and order everything I want in one go. That seriously reduces S&H charges & takes about as long (or rather short) as ordering an equivalent selection of lead minis.
i.e. I find the efficient way to use ebay is to ignore all the potential frustration of failed bids. And just use it as a search engine & online ordering tool.

I don't have a problem transporting the minis, I've got desk organizer trays that stack in a plastic box, 5 trays per box. I can get a battlegroup in a tray.
But how long does it take you to pack a battlegroup carefully back into those trays after a game.?
With plastic D&D minis I just scoop up handfulls of minis & (literally) drop them into a carrying case. If I did the same thing with lead minis I would expect the paint to get scraped off & some of the minis to break. The D&D minis & paint survives this treatment intact. Some of these things are as invulnerable as the proverbial cockroach. ;) :cool:

[Arnminster]

I think 1 figure to a base is great. The minis are to scale so if I decided to run a squad leader type battle then the figures are already 1 to a base. If you want more than one on a base then you can "Merge" a bunch. You should be able to find them for a quarter each in bulk on ebay. I've bought many DDM minis in bulk for about that price.

[dirtshredder]

I look forward to checking out the new game, but also I plan on using the figures for my Face of Battle skirmish rules which are true 1 to 1 scale rules: One man represents one man.
Out of curiousity born of the compliants of single figure bases, has anyone seen 15 mm miniatures that have multiple figures based? Battlefront/FOW had me fooled for a while, but they are really separate men that are glued to a common base. I haven't found any miniatures that are based with mutliple men.

regards

[SeattleGamer]

Just about every scale of mini I've seen has infantry as individual models. It is up to you to mount them to a stand per the rules you are using.

Taking Flames of War as an example, you are supposed to mount 5 infantry figures to a 32mm x 50mm base. You get the minis separately, it's up to you where you put them on a base. Because you can stagger the figures any way you want, when you see a whole bunch of infantry stands together they look more like a mob, not a straight line of figures. And lots of people get rather fancy with their bases, which further serves to make them look more random and not all-in-a-row. Plus, as an individual figure, they are easier to paint!

You can certainly use the FoW rules, and play with A&AM figures, based exactly as they are, with your buddies and such. But visually, it's jut not going to look as cool having two lone guys on individual bases standing next to a tank representing a squad. Now, 10 guys one two section bases standing next to the tank . . . that has the right visual. And let's face it, tabletop minis gamers, the folks with hills and rivers and buildings and trees and such, play for the visuals.

A board game that happens to use minis is a totally different experience.

[skeevo666]

One of the abilities of the T-34 (shown on it's stat card in the preview) is the ability to carry infantry. Maybe that's why they're only doing one fig on a base - to allow you to physically put it on top of a tank without obscuring the tank's details :confused:

[JasonR1]

One of the abilities of the T-34 (shown on it's stat card in the preview) is the ability to carry infantry. Maybe that's why they're only doing one fig on a base - to allow you to physically put it on top of a tank without obscuring the tank's details :confused:

That could be another reason, however I think that there is more than one.

I mentioned earlier that I think the reason for the single man-base is that the squads may still require 3 single independently based figures which would = 9 to 12 men, but that this gives you flexibility and hit tracking (i.e remove a guy when you take a hit etc..). It may be a clean way of tracking casualties, Fire-Power and incorporating flexible squad management, instead of putting a coin or little plastic markers on the map next to the men.

[Moderator Keldar]

I mentioned earlier that I think the reason for the single man-base is that the squads may still require 3 single independently based figures which would = 9 to 12 men, but that this gives you flexibility and hit tracking (i.e remove a guy when you take a hit etc..). It may be a clean way of tracking casualties, Fire-Power and incorporating flexible squad management, instead of putting a coin or little plastic markers on the map next to the men.

I'm not privy to any inside info, but I think you have a very good point here. That would be consistent with the likes of D&D Minis.

[Shrapnelsmile]

I agree wish Jason as well,

Considering hexes will house at least 2 and perhaps 3 infantry figs each, in addition to the fact that the boards are not at all very large, it seems to make sense. When facing tanks I would want numerous strategic possibilities, such as grunts shielding mortar squads and various hard hitting squads coupled with commanders.

[Plagued]

It seems extremely unlikely that infantry would be singularly based as one complete unit. (aka: Single Figure = 6-12 soldiers)
Some reasons:

1.)They are apparently scaled to 15mm, or at the very least a size close to that. It's too small to justify the cost that comes with it. If there are only fourty something different units, buying a pack of nine and getting two vehicles and then seven individual soldiers in 15mm scale is outrageous and would rapidly turn off buyers

2.)Single Figures = No Damage Scale. Sure, you can use the SW system and pile markers on their unit cards, but it seems silly to have a hugely inconsistant figure scale. Having six tanks on a field and then four individual troops just looks terrible as well.

3.)No collectors value. People will have buckets of common infantry that never get used. If all you need is say...three or four individual troop figures to represent an entire infantry company than you'll never need more than that.

Ideally the infantry will come in pre-packaged squad bags, with 2-5 infantry each. The cards will ideally allow players to add-on infantry at an increased points cost, to encourage buying more packs and to encourage usage of the miniatures.

Most importantly you won't be giving people the feeling that they are getting ripped off when they essentially pay the same for a tank that they do for a half-sized individually based man.

[Major Adler]

let us see an infantry preview...infantry with a card...

Adler...out..................

[Plagued]

In case anyone is interested, I did a google search and found this quick Q&A Posted on "The Time Waster's Guide Forums" I know nothing about it's legitimacy, and it is dated for early May. So take with a grain of salt:


I had several questions, and Toby (Wizards PR guru extraordinaire) had answers.

Fell: Why 15mm? Seems small.

Toby: The line is very vehicle-oriented, with vehicles accounting for almost half of the base set. If we used a larger scale the vehicles would have to be rare (as in the Giants of Legend D&D set, which has one large figure per booster). 15mm is an ideal scale because the vehicles are small enough to be common, and the infantry is still large enough be hand-painted and historically authentic.

Fell: Does it use the same basic rules as D&D minis and SW minis?

Toby: The basic concepts are the same, such as stat cards, but the maps will be hex-grid instead of box-grid and there are other slight variations that will bring it more into line with traditional wargames. Also, instead of 20-sided dice the game will use groups of 6-sided dice.

Fell. Hex maps, huh? What scale are we talking about--will a single map be an entire battlefield, or just a little area for a skirmish? Do figures represent individuals, squads, or divisions?

Toby: This is a highly tactical game on a microscopic level. Figures represent individual infantrymen and vehicles. A map might be a single bridge over a river, a city block full of ruined buildings, or a stretch of road (perfect for a rolling ambush with the M18 Tank Destroyer). Players can construct a squad or fire team of about 4-10 units for action on a very "in your face" scale.

Fell: What nations are represented in the initial set, and which are planned for the future? Will the game encompass all major theaters of the war?

Toby: The Base Set will have a heavy European focus. Subsequent expansions may have a geographical theme such as the Pacific Theatre or North Africa, but nothing is set in stone yet. Germany, US, UK, USSR and Italy will all be in the Base Set.

Fell: Sounds awesome. Thanks, Toby

[JasonR1]

I think that Toby may have some things right but I thought that I read on this board from someone at Avalon Hill that the intent was that one infantry figure equals 3 to 4 men; not one man = one man. This 3 to 4 man per figure makes a lot more sense in terms of scale and realism when it somes to squads at this level.

-Jason

[MEX10MM]

[/QUOTE]Ideally the infantry will come in pre-packaged squad bags, with 2-5 infantry each. The cards will ideally allow players to add-on infantry at an increased points cost, to encourage buying more packs and to encourage usage of the miniatures. Most importantly you won't be giving people the feeling that they are getting ripped off when they essentially pay the same for a tank that they do for a half-sized individually based man.[/QUOTE]

Individually based Infantry is OK with me, but I hope Plagued is right about this, and there are more than one 15mm miniature for each infantry unit. :o

[vogless]

IF there are multiple, single based minis in each bag, that would actually be better. You'd have the multiple fig/squad covered and be able to represent losses. Plus, I would feel better about getting 3 tiny guys for the price of 1 D&D mini.

[BradyLS]

IF both the vehicles and infantry are 15mm in scale, that would be a great start. Things begin looking better if:

1. Nationalities in a booster are not mixed-- or at least contain contemporary foes.

2. Infantry figures in a booster are bagged to form a team: such as 3 infantry plus one leader = infantry squad. 1 mortar plus 1-2 infantry = mortar team.

3. Vehicles are tha same nationality as the infantry.

Say, for example:

1 Sherman
3 US infantrymen
1 US infanrtyman with Brownling LMG
1 US leader (sergeant or lieutenant)
1 German Half track
2 German panzergrenadiers with SMGs
1 German panzergrenadier w/ panzerfaust/schreck
1 German leader (sergeant or lieutenant)

...all in 15mm. That would ROCK!

...But if everything is a hodge, such as a booster containing a loose mix of:

1 German opel blitz truck
1 Japanese Chi-Ha tank
1 US marine
1 US infnatryman w/bazooka
1 French infantryman with mortar
1 Italian infantryman
1 Russian infantryman w/ LMG
1 Russian naval infantryman
1 German pioneer
1 German fallschirmjager sargeant w/SMG
1 British leader with binoculars

...that might be cool for someone else, but not for me.

[Kaufschtick]

IF both the vehicles and infantry are 15mm in scale, that would be a great start. Things begin looking better if:

1. Nationalities in a booster are not mixed-- or at least contain contemporary foes.

2. Infantry figures in a booster are bagged to form a team: such as 3 infantry plus one leader = infantry squad. 1 mortar plus 1-2 infantry = mortar team.

3. Vehicles are tha same nationality as the infantry.

Say, for example:

1 Sherman
3 US infantrymen
1 US infanrtyman with Brownling LMG
1 US leader (sergeant or lieutenant)
1 German Half track
2 German panzergrenadiers with SMGs
1 German panzergrenadier w/ panzerfaust/schreck
1 German leader (sergeant or lieutenant)

...all in 15mm. That would ROCK!

...But if everything is a hodge, such as a booster containing a loose mix of:

1 German opel blitz truck
1 Japanese Chi-Ha tank
1 US marine
1 US infnatryman w/bazooka
1 French infantryman with mortar
1 Italian infantryman
1 Russian infantryman w/ LMG
1 Russian naval infantryman
1 German pioneer
1 German fallschirmjager sargeant w/SMG
1 British leader with binoculars

...that might be cool for someone else, but not for me.

Agreed! I'm with you 100%!

[Kaufschtick]

I mentioned earlier that I think the reason for the single man-base is that the squads may still require 3 single independently based figures which would = 9 to 12 men, but that this gives you flexibility and hit tracking (i.e remove a guy when you take a hit etc..). It may be a clean way of tracking casualties, Fire-Power and incorporating flexible squad management, instead of putting a coin or little plastic markers on the map next to the men.

Now that would be cool, kinda like the ways hits are taken in Battle Cry. Good point, I too would agree that you may be on to something here.... :)

[SeattleGamer]

Yes, I think Jason has it right. I believe it takes multiple infantry bases in a hex to represent a squad, with each figure representing more than 1 figure. I believe Richard mentioned that while the figures were 1 to a base, they actually represented 3-4 soliders. Given the size of the hexes and the scale of the troops, then it's very much like Memoir '44 in that a group of figures is a unit, and you take loses by removing one of the men in that unit.