Adler to Rich_Baker...Adler to Rich_Baker... [Archive]

Major Adler

06-03-2005, 11:48 AM

what is the word on the infantry???...

1)-is the infantry in scale to the tanks(15mm)...

2)-how many 15mm mini infantry men are on the base to represent a small group of infantry?...

3)-will there be different types of infantry per nationality(such as SS , Herr , Fallschrimjager , Volksturm , Afrika Korps for the Germans)...

Adler...out...............

Major Adler

06-03-2005, 12:02 PM

this is an issue that needs to cleared up ASAP...the group in my area will not be playing this game if one infantry figure represents a group of infantry...if the game is a minis game?...then the proper number of infantry should be present on the base(one for one)...our shop owner is asking us if he should carry this game...at this time we are saying to him...hold off...we have some questions that need to be answered...

Adler...out..........

Der Panzinator

06-03-2005, 01:35 PM

I don't know if Rich Baker checks these boards or not. I have never seen him post anything...
Would be nice if he did though.

I wouldn't worry too much about getting answers right away. It is still 3 months before the game is even launched.

Major Adler

06-03-2005, 04:17 PM

our shop owner would like to pre-order product...he is asking us if we are interested...we are...IF...

so until those questions about the infantry are answered...we are not comitting to the game...and he is not ordering...

If Rich Baker does not monitor this forum...that would be a bad indicator as well...certainly he should be interested in what we GAMERS are saying...

Adler...out...............

Moderator Sinister

06-03-2005, 04:59 PM

Let me say that rich is working on the game right now. I have no doubt he'll be in here some I talked with him privately some during the chat.

He did make it a point of comming to the chat so I'm think he'll be very involved. Rich of course works for wizards, I think full time, so he's most likely very very busy and the game is getting final touches as we speak.

I'm hoping for another chat with just him sometime closer to the release.

sherminator1

06-03-2005, 08:32 PM

fenyan

06-03-2005, 09:08 PM

From the chat log that Panzinator distilled a bit:

moderator_sinister: Rich, is infantry represented by 1 solider on a base?

Rich_Baker: It depends. For vehicles, you're definitely talking about 1 at a time. So the Tiger mini is one Tiger tank. Most infantry guys, we sort of assume that the mini represents a fire team... say, 3 or 4 guys. But it's not explicit, and to be honest, it's not real important in game play.

(still a little vague)

Major Adler

06-06-2005, 11:26 AM

why don't you send him an e-mail...ask him to look at my questions...and resolve all this in 5 minutes...end of story...

Adler...out.......................

RichardBaker

06-06-2005, 05:00 PM

I'm here. I spy on these boards every now and then, don't post much, as you've observed.

As far as infantry goes...

Most infantry figures are just 1 soldier on a base. Some, like the machine gun teams, have 2 soldiers on the base. But the exact number of people represented by the piece isn't terribly important in game play. You can assume that an infantry "piece" represents anywhere from 1 to 4 or 5 guys.

You will definitely get multiple varieties of infantry for each country. For example, you'll see the Wehrmacht rifleman and SS rifleman in the base set. In later sets we'll show you a SS stormtrooper, armed with a submachinegun instead of a rifle. And I expect we'll do Volksturm and Luftwaffe infantry too. I'd say Hitler Youth also, but that's kind of troubling, isn't it?

Moderator Sinister

06-06-2005, 05:19 PM

good to have you here!

StyxParadox

06-06-2005, 05:56 PM

Richard,

Thanks for taking the time to answer the question. I am looking forward to the game and I really don't care how many men are represented by the figure. If the figure has good detail and is well made (Starwars Minis but smaller) then I will be very happy. More importantly if the game is fun and well balanced then I will be playing. I have wanted a game like this for years now.

I have but one humble request. I enjoy comming to the boards and seeing new info. If you wold not mind posting each week a little spoiler about the game. Even something small like you just posted (Wehrmacht rifleman and SS rifleman in the base set. Very cool.)

Redcoat

06-06-2005, 06:08 PM

Well, if we are lucky the infantry will be scaled to 15mm as well. At least then we can "rebase" them and buy tons of extra soldiers to make up the difference. I would still make a considerable investment in these things if this was the case.

Like others have said, I care very little for the rules. I just want 15mm WWII miniatures that I dont have to paint. Collectable or not I dont care, they are still cheaper than lead and you dont have to paint them!

Der Panzinator

06-06-2005, 10:42 PM

As far as infantry goes...

Most infantry figures are just 1 soldier on a base.

NNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOO..... WHY OH WHY!!!!! :eek:

Just kidding... ;)

But seriously.

AAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!! Say its not so!!!

Okay, how about we try this again. You come back in and tell us "June fools... hahaha" or something, and then tell us how cool the infantry units are with fire teams of 4 to 5 figures per base and that they are the same 15mm scale that the tanks are. So all of us historical miniatures wargamers will be soooo happy to finally be able to get pre-painted inexpensive miniatures at last and you will be our hero!!! Yeah, I like that much better.

Oh well.
The one thing that we all need to know now is what will the scale of the infantry figures be in? Will they be 15mm like the tanks or will they be in a larger scale like 20 or 28 mm since there will only be one per base?

When it comes down to it I'm sure I'll buy at least some pieces to add to the never-ending collection of games anyway.

Regardless, welcome to the boards. :D

Drax Kramer

06-07-2005, 01:18 AM

What's the difference between regular and SS infantry units? I mean, historically, there were none, and serious boardgames got rid of the myth of SS uebermensch years ago.

Drax

Major Adler

06-07-2005, 09:24 AM

thanks for the answer to some of my questions...although it would have been nice if you had addressed the scale issue as well...will that single or two soldiers on a base be in 15mm?...makes no difference to me anyway at this point...

the single soldier representing a team of soldiers is a total turn off to us mini gamers....I will not be investing in the game...and my group will advise our local shop not to carry it...we really do not consider it a minis game...it is more of a CPPBG (COLLECTABLE PLAYING PIECE BOARD GAME) so to speak...

to bad...with a minimal amount of effort...you could have brought in the huge minis gamers market as well...

best wishes to all...goodbye...

Adler...out..........................

elindo

06-07-2005, 10:13 AM

best wishes to all...goodbye...

Adler...out..........................

Lets hope this is your final sign-off.................but I would have to guess you'll be back................ hopefully my guess is wrong.....................

RichardBaker

06-07-2005, 11:29 AM

The infantry figures are 15mm, same as the tanks. Our little guys are about 60% as tall as a tank that would be 10 feet tall in real life. We considered the idea of going with "oversized" infantry but discarded it pretty early on. I sort of favored an 18mm scale for the infantry to go with a 15mm scale for the tanks, but we decided that you guys would pillory us for it.

RE: multiple figures on a single base, it's all about the cost of goods. More figures on a single base means more "deco ops" (or painting steps) for that miniature. I would have liked to have 2 or 3 guys on a base myself, even for standard rifle squads, but this is the way we have to do it if we want to hit our numbers. You'll get a few 2-figure pieces in the commons, like machine gun crews.

NNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOO..... WHY OH WHY!!!!! :eek:

Just kidding... ;)

But seriously.

AAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!! Say its not so!!!

Okay, how about we try this again. You come back in and tell us "June fools... hahaha" or something, and then tell us how cool the infantry units are with fire teams of 4 to 5 figures per base and that they are the same 15mm scale that the tanks are. So all of us historical miniatures wargamers will be soooo happy to finally be able to get pre-painted inexpensive miniatures at last and you will be our hero!!! Yeah, I like that much better.

Oh well.
The one thing that we all need to know now is what will the scale of the infantry figures be in? Will they be 15mm like the tanks or will they be in a larger scale like 20 or 28 mm since there will only be one per base?

When it comes down to it I'm sure I'll buy at least some pieces to add to the never-ending collection of games anyway.

Regardless, welcome to the boards. :D

Der Panzinator

06-07-2005, 12:29 PM

Thanks for the reply Richard.
At least everyone will know what to expect now.

Are the bases plain or do they have unit stats on them?
I'm thinking we should be able to take a couple of infantry pieces and put them together on one base.

mhensley

06-07-2005, 01:40 PM

RE: multiple figures on a single base, it's all about the cost of goods. More figures on a single base means more "deco ops" (or painting steps) for that miniature. I would have liked to have 2 or 3 guys on a base myself, even for standard rifle squads, but this is the way we have to do it if we want to hit our numbers. You'll get a few 2-figure pieces in the commons, like machine gun crews.

Hmmm.... wizkids does it and it seems to be profitable for them-

http://covalto.com/tienda/images/wizkids/mwfireforeffect/1EliteInfantryGreen.gif
http://www.isa.pl/mechwarrior/pic/Elite-Infantry.jpg
http://www.isa.pl/mechwarrior/pic/Mortar-Squad.jpg

There really is no excuse for this. You want me to pay as much for a 15mm figure as I do presently for 30mm D&D figures. I don't think so. :(

RichardBaker

06-08-2005, 10:49 AM

The top and sides of the base are plain. Most unit stats (attack, defense, specials) appear on a separate "stat card," much like we do with D&D miniatures. On the bottom of the base, you get some information much like the base-bottom info for a D&D miniature: name, set, rarity, point cost, and copyright.

Thanks for the reply Richard.
At least everyone will know what to expect now.

Are the bases plain or do they have unit stats on them?
I'm thinking we should be able to take a couple of infantry pieces and put them together on one base.

Der Panzinator

06-08-2005, 11:06 AM

Okay,

Thanks again Richard.
So for those of us who want to mod our infantry units by taking several figures and re-gluing them to one base should be able too. I suspect that there will be a majority of pieces in a pack will be infantry so it may cost maybe a buck or two more to get what we want but will probably still be a lot cheaper then buying lead figures and then the extra expense and time of painting.

When will we get to see some pics of the infantry figures???

JasonR1

06-12-2005, 04:11 AM

Hello,

This is my second post, which is an expansion from my first in another thread. In sum, I wanted to voice my concern over this "1-figure to represent a squad," idea.

Miniatures, more than other games are often played due to their aesthetic appeal, not just game play. In addition, miniatures have somewhat of a relation to what the player sees in a basic scale that is not necessarily evident in a larger “world-map” type view.

There are visual cues that are represented in mini-games and these become even further reinforced when you place a player at this scale. A basic visual cue at this level is that more than one = multiple, even if does not necessarily have every represented thing on the table.

This aesthetic aspect and scale relation play a big part in their appeal. To ignore something as significant as not having multiple guys (at least 3) per base to represent a squad, or fire team is a big mistake, even if the scale is somewhat off.

Add to that the historical or “real-world” association that the consumer will have with a historically based mini's game, and you are really asking for trouble.

Again, I think even this board is indicative of the cross-section of the consumer base that are not really miniature gamers as many of them have admitted, who have an issue with this single man per base, off-scale choice.

Keep the game at scale, reinforce the illusion of playing with multiple units at the squad level, and you keep the general consumer/buyer immersed, whether or not the rules are historically accurate.

Finally, I think they are voicing their concerns over this issue on the board in hopes that someone at AH will hear them and correct the mistake.

Thanks and sorry for the cross post.

-Jason

panzer_attack

06-12-2005, 04:28 PM

What's the difference between regular and SS infantry units? I mean, historically, there were none, and serious boardgames got rid of the myth of SS uebermensch years ago.

Drax

I think the real difference is that the SS units got preferential treatment - they got all the best equipment.

Drax Kramer

06-13-2005, 04:39 AM

I think the real difference is that the SS units got preferential treatment - they got all the best equipment.

Not infantry grunts. The infantry weapons carried by regular and Waffen SS men were same. In fact, in first half of the war SS had worse weapons than Wehrmacht.

Drax

XAos

06-16-2005, 06:38 AM

Not infantry grunts. The infantry weapons carried by regular and Waffen SS men were same. In fact, in first half of the war SS had worse weapons than Wehrmacht.

Drax
But in the early stages of the war the few SS units were all volenteers. Which does give a morale advantage over the mostly conscript wehrmacht.
And by the late war (kursk onwards) the SS armoured divions got the lions share of the heaviest artillery. And higher priority for food & ammo.
Conversly, with a couple of exceptions they got divisional commanders that were appointed for political reasons rather than operational competence.

Drax Kramer

06-17-2005, 02:50 AM

But in the early stages of the war the few SS units were all volenteers. Which does give a morale advantage over the mostly conscript wehrmacht.

If you check the actual history of early war SS participation you will not be overly impressed. The guys who first ran away from British Matildas at Arras 1940 were SS infantrymen from Totenkopf division. They behaved no differently than Italian soldiers in Lybia later same year.

And by the late war (kursk onwards) the SS armoured divions got the lions share of the heaviest artillery. And higher priority for food & ammo.
Conversly, with a couple of exceptions they got divisional commanders that were appointed for political reasons rather than operational competence.

Sure, but that has little to do with introducing separate unit (with different abilities) for Waffen SS infantry squad. It's a lip service to decades old myth about superior Waffen SS uebersoldier.

Drax

JasonR1

06-17-2005, 05:17 AM

If you check the actual history of early war SS participation you will not be overly impressed. The guys who first ran away from British Matildas at Arras 1940 were SS infantrymen from Totenkopf division.Drax

I think that anyone would have at that point; those things were a shock at the time and there was nothing to stop them at first. Anyway, The Death's Head guys were known for not being the best soldiers, but more were like Butchers than anyting else. (prison guards, thugs from the SA etc..). That is why that unit spent a lot of its time in anti-partisan roles during the war.

They behaved no differently than Italian soldiers in Lybia later same year.Drax

Those were the facist Black Shirts. (ITalians.)

Sure, but that has little to do with introducing separate unit (with different abilities) for Waffen SS infantry squad. It's a lip service to decades old myth about superior Waffen SS uebersoldier.Drax

They were a bit "nuttier" at times. Having said that, if the game gives the SS any special ability, I would think it would come in two forms: 1) restrictions, ie-can't take prisoners, or can't be commanded by regular German army officers etc... 2) perhaps some bonus for being nuts like not surrendering until the very last or something like that.

The last thing I can think of would be just in the basic unit organization so that they get a higher proportion of equipment in the scenarios, as they were often favored for political reasons when it came down to divining up the military resources.

Aside from those oddities, I agree that any extra “bonus” for the SS would be unhistorical and out of place in the game.

-Jason

XAos

06-17-2005, 05:33 AM

Sure, but that has little to do with introducing separate unit (with different abilities) for Waffen SS infantry squad. It's a lip service to decades old myth about superior Waffen SS uebersoldier.
Drax
Main reasons for A/H doing seperate figures are;
1) Different combat uniform, wehrmacht uniform was fieldgrey. SS uniform has a camoflage smock. With 15mm figures the uniforms are a significant reason to have different figures. Otherwise all the infantry could be the same figure with different stat cards to use it for the 6 nationalities. :( I would expect some figures in "afrika-corps sand" colours, though possably in a later expansion.
2) Some of A/H customers want them. Bord games with white on black carboard counters for SS and Red counters for Russion guards/commisars sell better. If they make different figures they will probably have "marginally" different stats. It's lip service back to that myth, that the stats for the SS will necessarily be "ubermensch".

... I would think it would come in two forms: 1) restrictions, ie-can't take prisoners, or can't be commanded by regular German army officers etc... 2) perhaps some bonus for being nuts like not surrendering until the very last or something like that.

The last thing I can think of would be just in the basic unit organization so that they get a higher proportion of equipment in the scenarios, as they were often favored for political reasons when it came down to divining up the military resources.

Aside from those oddities, I agree that any extra “bonus” for the SS would be unhistorical and out of place in the game.

-Jason
Thats eactly the sort of minor difference I was considering, can only be commanded by SS officers (who would usually be below-average commanders because of lack of training & political appointees.)
Or won't surrender (the Russian commisars & Partisans in particular seemed to dislike SS prisoners :D

polish_horsy

06-27-2007, 03:34 PM

Uncle_Joe

06-27-2007, 03:44 PM

Wow, talk about thread necromancy! :p

It took me a few minutes to realize that this was from June 2005!! :)

Lotus

06-27-2007, 03:53 PM

Major Adler

06-28-2007, 11:32 AM

forgot about that...

Der Panzinator

06-28-2007, 10:46 PM

Well I ended up building some large armies of Flames of War stuff and bailed out after the first set of AAM.... :o
I use my 15mm FOW stuff for several different miniatures games and they work quite well.
I still like the AAM game but I just never really cared for the scale or the quality of the figures. I still use just what I had from the first set and still enjoy playing games on occasion. I guess I'll be interested in seeing what they do to finally fix the scale inconsitency. :rolleyes:

That was quite the blast from the past though. :cool: