OMG - what a bunch of cry babies

[Mierow]

I apologize in advance. This is not meant to be directed at any one person, but I've seen this on a couple of boards now and I just need to rant. I don't know if it's just been a crappy day at work or what, but here I go.

I can't believe the total lack of *****ing and moaning that has been going on by several people about the A&A minis. "If it's not this then you've lost my $", "AH missed the boat if figures aren't all xx scale or only 1 figure per base." Grow up and quit your crying. At least there's a company that is willing to invest some time and money into creating such matierials. Some people complain about not wanting to paint pewter/lead minis, other complain that they cost too much and that there's a "huge" market for such minis. If you're really looking for WWII "accurate" mini's, then get some patience and save your allowance and get the mini's you want. Besides, how "huge" is the market really? Yes, there are a number of people that love WWII, but that doesn't mean AH/Wizards is going to make millions becuase of this. Based on the success of the Sare Wars minis, I would say that they're hoping to draw in some of that crowd, but this will still not be one of their top money makers (although I am praying that it becomes one).

I'm very excited about these mini's because 1) I love A&A, and 2) I love WWII. I could care less about if they're all to scale, or what the paint schemes are on the specific tanks. Give me the pieces and I'll have fun with it. Until I actually get to see some of the pieces I'll hold onto my credit card, but I'm sure there will be the day when it gets charged to the hilt.

[StyxParadox]

Yes, I agree with your message. I don't think I would say it as blunt, but like you, I am looking forward to this game and I just don't understand the problems that some have with the game.

[mhensley]

If you don't care about scale or painting, you are probably better off with Memoir '44 than this. It will definitely cost you a lot less.

[Groggy Nard]

At least there's a company that is willing to invest some time and money into creating such matierials.

I'm very excited about these mini's because 1) I love A&A, and 2) I love WWII. I could care less about if they're all to scale, or what the paint schemes are on the specific tanks.

1. It's nice that AH/WOTC are willing to invest the time and money, but when they're investing the time and money to make stuff that will ultimately satisfy no one, they're wasting both.

2. If you don't care about scale/historical accuracy, why not just make up a new tactical game rulebook and mapboard using the pieces from A&A? You (and AH/WOTC) could save a lot of money.

I guess I don't see the point in a A&A-complexity level game with historically styled collectible miniatures ... are any of AH/WOTC's markets being served by an odd hybrid like this? I seriously doubt it.

[Sinister]

I think it serves a great deal of people.

A&A often the complaint for the wargamers "oh it's not a wargame it's not complex enough"

and the complaint from the casual boardgamers

"Its too complex"

But the fact is that its HUGELY popular because its a gap bridging game. I can play it with my wife and I can play with my wargamer buddies. It get's played alot at my house because its a game that satisfies both groups of people DESPITE their complaining.

I think this what the miniatures are going to do. Mage knight isn't warhammer. I would never considered it to be "the end all of tatcial fantasy battles" like I would warhammer. On the other hand it takes about 1/4 the time to set up and play, about 1/4 the cost to buy, and manages to be a game that appeals to many people. I think A&A Minis will be that kinda game.

[Smith568]

Hmmm - Three shots, three misses: I think I can storm this position!

1. ... stuff that will ultimately satisfy no one...

These thinks are going to be pretty successful. The first time I saw a box of the WOTC D&D Minis line, I actually laughed. At this point - I find that I've become totally addicted to them myself and so have hundreds (thousands?) of others (check out www.maxminis.com & see for yourself). On the D&D side, the tournaments, trading sites, and EBAY action is huge. There has of course been tons of whining about the cost and the details, but overall people are clearly VERY satisfied with them - and I see no reason for A&A to be any different.

2. ...why not just make up a new tactical game rulebook and mapboard using the pieces from A&A?...

I've been doing that sort of monkeybusiness for the last 20 years, and frankly it's starting to become a drag. While I totally enjoy that as a separate side of the hobby in it's own right, it's not really a good use of my time - and what's worse, it's kind of a drag because who the heck else cares about what kind of home brew you or I come up with in our own homes when there COULD (and will) be an actual community of reenergized tabletop gamers out their using a broad line up of what will soon be hundreds of mutually consistant miniatures that are still worth something in trade or as resale, and not just a bunch of plastic toys sitting in the closet.

I guess I don't see the point in a A&A-complexity level game with historically styled collectible miniatures ... are any of AH/WOTC's markets being served by an odd hybrid like this?

This is your weakest point. Toss the rules if you want to - these are tools that can be used with numerous tabletop systems to whatever level of complexity or detail you like. The important point is that they could serve as a great bridge for new players to get into the hobby, and that's GREAT news for WOTC, our local game shops, and everyone who plays. I've already seen the impact on the D&D RPG from the kids who crossed over from Magic CCG via the minis and it's a great thing: All kinds of interesting and challenging players are going to find themselves craving more because of this bridge.

Anyway - I appreciate the discussion, and I'll be looking for any reply with an open mind. You *might* be right about this, but I'm pretty sure I've got you beat!

Cheers!

[skeevo666]

These thinks are going to be pretty successful. The first time I saw a box of the WOTC D&D Minis line, I actually laughed. At this point - I find that I've become totally addicted to them myself and so have hundreds (thousands?) of others (check out www.maxminis.com & see for yourself). On the D&D side, the tournaments, trading sites, and EBAY action is huge. There has of course been tons of whining about the cost and the details, but overall people are clearly VERY satisfied with them - and I see no reason for A&A to be any different.

You can substitute the words "Star Wars" for D&D in the above section and get the same results (well, except for the laughing at a box of them part; the art has been top-notch on all three sets so far :D )

[SeattleGamer]

I think this game will be a success. The whining (at least most of it anyway) has not been that the game itself would be horrible. The rules are stupid, the artwork used on the boards was drawn by a kid with two crayons, etc.

No, the complaining has been that they will likely have a successful game/minis line for their original intended audience, but they came "this" close to providing proper miniatures for true minis/tabletop gamers. Fix the infantry, and they would double the popularity of the game.

Think about it. They could have used any scale for their minis, how about 9mm? How about 17mm? It would have worked just fine for a boardgame. But to drive sales to a secondary market (potentially even larger than their intended first market) they needed to do the following:

Use a commoin scale for tabletop minis. The current rage is 15mm. They did that.
Scale the infantry properly with the vehicles. They did that.
Offer up a wide variety of nations, not just Germans vrs Russians. They did that.
Paint the minis in some fashion beyond their base plastic color. They did that.
Base a number of infantry on a stand to equal a section/squad/whatever. Nope!

So it's like someone told the product manager that if they did all these thing,s they would not only sell lots of boxes to their intended audience, but existing tabletop gamers would buy these by the truckload to play in actual tabletop games, and the guy said "Well, let's do the first four, but skip that last one. That should do the trick."

So they are getting the "Close, but no cigar" award from the tabletop gamers. The game will likely be very successful and make them lots of money. People are not whining about that. They are saying "So close . . ., so close . . .".

Me, I'm not whining. I will buy half a dozen starters and see what this game is all about. But I can tell you if the infantry had been properly done "for tabletop", I'd have likely dropped ten times the dollars.

[Major Adler]

with the error in not capturing the mini gamer market...this game will be belly up in 2006...I guess the one good thing for us mini gamers that do not like to paint...is that there will be a lot of vehicles on the secondary market cheap...and we will just have to paint up our infantry...

Adler...out..................

[Gspot1]

To start I will agree on the infantry topic. 4 or more troops on a stand would have made this game more attractive. On the second topic I will have to say that the small group of people here griping :( about how bad this game is going to suck because of topic 1 are in for a suprise. For every 1 person I here whine I here 2 or 3 who just don't care and will buy the crap out of this stuff.
I for one will buy enough for 2 to 4 good size armies. I hope this game will go the distance because of its appeal to people who love AA and have little time for painting and a book bag for of rule books and dice.

G :)

[Der Panzinator]

Thats alright. The people *****ing will buy a bunch of stuff too once it is available. It is just human nature to *****... Why else would we have a government??? ;)

I find that most of the people that are supposed to be *****ing are actually just expressing their opinions with a lot of passion. :D
I think that it is a good sign that there is such a level of discussion going on. Seems to me that this indicates the game will be very successful. Better a lot of loud voices then silence. That would concern me.

[SeattleGamer]

Der Panzer . . . well said, and I totally agree. It's passion about one's hobby that drives the commentary, not hatred for the company. I'm certainly not predicting their stock will tumble or the game will go belly up in a year. It's going to be a success, probably not wildly so, but a solid success none the less. I think will could have been more successful, but so be it.

I just preordered a six pack of starters and a case of boosters. That should give me enough to play the "board" with my friends. I don't need enough minis to field a division on a 4' x 8' table, so that's probably enough. When the expansion comes out in December, I'll probably pick up a case of those as well.

Now, contrast that to the "What if..." the infantry minis were properly based for tabletop games. I'd have doubled or trebled the booster case order without a second thought. I'd know I needed enough of <pick a nation here> troops to play <pick a tabletop minis game here> properly.

For the "board" game, a regular german infantry unit will suffice. But for the tabletop, I might actually take some of the regular units and paint over them to make them Afrika Korps, for that deseret war scenario I've got going. So I'd actually want plenty of infantry, so some could be "touched up" to be other theaters. Suddenly, the fact that infantry are common and thus you will get them by the truckload makes sense. Even if AH doesn't paint them differently (why would they if their stats are the same), I certainly could.

Which naturally gets me thinking, there could be infantry cards for each segment of the way. I'm know the TO& E changed throughout the war. So when you field a Desert War German infantry it's stats are "X" and when you field him in 1943 Russian Front his stats are "Y" and again, in 1944 against the advancing invasion forces, his stats are "Z". Just a change to the card, no new minis needed, and you have a more varied selection of troops.

Ah well, I'm off on a tangent now.

Can't wait for my minis to grace my door. Might have to figure out a way for someone to buy me a box or two at GenCon.

[Major Adler]

SeattleGamer - I get the impression from your last post...that there will NOT be different types of infantry per nationality...

such as...8th Army , Para , NW Europe , Commando & Burma infantry for the Bits...did you hear something that I have not...I thought there WOULD be different types of infantry per nationality...

Adler...out........................

[vogless]

I know that the SS, and Red Devils were named. I think I read somewhere about a Commisar???

[kniterangr]

I think in the interview with Richard he said there would not be any specific commanders like Paton or Rommell but there would be Commisars, at least not yet for the individuals. There seems to be alot of things on their minds but not definite plans yet, like with planes and ships.

[Major Adler]

vogless - that is good to hear...I thought that was the case...and the Germans in WWII are nothing with out their Fallschrimjagers...

as for leadership figures I hope they keep it generic...like a Soviet Commisar...U.S. Infantry Captain...German Sergeant...etc. etc.

I guess they could give them a Generic surname...like Captain Smith for a U.S. Infantry Captain...Sergeant Krause for a German infantry sergeant...

Adler...out...............

[Beast1313131]

Well said Mierow, I agree with you 100%!

[Der Panzinator]

This is from Richard Baker during the chat log

No individual people yet like Rommel or Patton, but we have more generic commanders, like "SS Captain" and "Red Devil Captain." Or the Russian Komissar, who can shoot his own guys to motivate the rest.

[SeattleGamer]

Major . . . I have no information one way or another about variations of infantry for a given nationality. If you asked me to place a $100 bet right now, I'd say:

Each nation will definately have a "basic" infantry, most probably an "elite" infantry, and then possibly a "special" variety. The first would be your basic troopers, the second could simply be battle-hardened veterans, or shock troops of some sort, and the third might be paratroopers, commands, rangers, etc. With only 48 minis in the initial go, I would be surprised if ANY "special" troops were initially included. Adding paratroopers and commandos really cry out (from a marketing perspective) to be included in a supplement, where you get to add a few new rules to the base game, possibly a new board or two to go along with those rules.

More specifically to your question, I would bet you that $100 right now that while there will be a basic German trooper, there will probably be just one. From a production line perspective, if the game stats would be the same between a 1942 DAK soldier and a 1944 Normandy Defender, then why go to the extra expense of sculpting an Afrika Korps minis, having a new paint scheme, etc?

So I don't expect to see a German infantry figure wearing shorts and a soft hat in DAK color scheme . . . ever. The best I expect to be able to do is paint over a regular German soldier if I really want to game Africa. Same for the Brits. I'm guessing they will be in Western Front gear and colors.

It would be nice to be wrong about this though.