Axis & Allies Minis - Missing the Target Audience?

[ArtBraune]

It seems to me that this game's primary target should be the Flames of War crowd, then it's secondary target should be the rest of the WWII mini gamers, and then it's tertiary target should be folks that do not fall into either of the first two categories.

It looks like it will not be hitting the first two targets squarely...

In order to capture the dollars of the folks in the first two categories Axis & Allies Minis would need to meet the following goals:

1. Multiple infantry units per base (at least 5)
As we have seen on another thread WizKids has already done this and this how the FoW minis and quite a few other minis games units are set up.

2. Individual AFV (Tanks, etc.) that do not cost more than $8-$12 on the secondary market
These people are already spending $8-$12 per AFV and then spending the time painting them and painting them in the scheme they desire - not a fixed paint scheme. The Dragon Can.Do 1/144 scale AFV's are $4 each and painted in a variety of schemes in a semi-collectible marketing scheme. These units must be cost effective to the gamer.

3. Historically accurate units
Even with the FoW crowd there is a degree of accuracy - Axis & Allies Minis must at least meet this level of accuracy to capture the first and second target audiences.

4. Provide basic rules
This must be done with the understanding that folks may use the basic rules, but are probably going to be using other rulesets if not initially perhaps later on down the road.

5. Present scale with miniature previews
Show us the target audiences what they are getting - it will help them in making up their minds if they are interested or not.

Please feel free to add any points I may have missed or expand on any point I have made - please keep it civil as I would like to see AH/Rich Bakers' response to this list.

Thanks!
Art

[Der Panzinator]

I think that this perfectly sums it all up. :D

I agree totally. Hopefully AH will still be able to alter its marketing strategy on this one. Although it is proabably too late. I would imagine with a release date set for less then 3 months that the pieces are already a done deal... :rolleyes:

[vogless]

Well said Art, and I thing Der Panzinator is probably right. I'm reallty excited to see this minis and I'm so happy that AH is putting these out.I'll finally be able to afford getting into WWII mini gaming! I just would like to see that corporate muscle behind the best possible product. I just can't believe that Wiz Kids can do it while AH can't. I've waited this long and I ould not mind waiting a bit more and paying a bit more for the extra infantry.

[RichardBaker]

Guys, I'd love to tell you what I think about the target market or give you my opinion on the relative value of various consumer segments, but here's the deal: I'm a game designer, not a brand manager or a marketer. It's not my place to explain our business plan. I'm happy to talk about the things I *can* talk about--rules, miniature selection, game play, and a little bit about production constraints that I run into--but that's really all I should do.

If you think the game isn't aimed at you, then I'll default to the thing I tell anyone who's asking hard questions about a game that hasn't seen the light of day yet: Wait until you see it, pick it up and shake it around in the store, and use your own best judgment to decide if it's for you or not. I don't want you to buy it if you won't be happy with it.

[Moderator Kayn]

No pressure, Rich.. I think its just good of you to take the time to tell us what you "can" tell. It's SO easy for us to be backseat drivers, so to speak. ;)

Mod Ka'yn

[elindo]

No pressure, Rich.. I think its just good of you to take the time to tell us what you "can" tell. It's SO easy for us to be backseat drivers, so to speak. ;)

Mod Ka'yn

And back seat painters, back seat rule makers, back seat miniature designers! Can't we all just wait and see what this is really going to be all about before we run around like Chicken Little?

[ArtBraune]

And back seat painters, back seat rule makers, back seat miniature designers! Can't we all just wait and see what this is really going to be all about before we run around like Chicken Little?

Elindo - I do not recall running around like "Chicken Little"?

I believe I expressed my concerns in a calm, orderly fashion...

Thanks for your input! :D
Art

[ArtBraune]

Guys, I'd love to tell you what I think about the target market or give you my opinion on the relative value of various consumer segments, but here's the deal: I'm a game designer, not a brand manager or a marketer. It's not my place to explain our business plan. I'm happy to talk about the things I *can* talk about--rules, miniature selection, game play, and a little bit about production constraints that I run into--but that's really all I should do.

If you think the game isn't aimed at you, then I'll default to the thing I tell anyone who's asking hard questions about a game that hasn't seen the light of day yet: Wait until you see it, pick it up and shake it around in the store, and use your own best judgment to decide if it's for you or not. I don't want you to buy it if you won't be happy with it.

Rich,

I am looking forward to just that - picking them up, looking them over, and trying the game. I tried to summarize my thoughts and concerns without having seen more than 4-5 figures of the set.

Thanks for taking the time to respond!!!
Art

[Redcoat]

No matter what, I will certainly try the game out. In the worst case scenario, at least we had a "big name" company give it a try (and maybe spark future prospects). Best case, we will see a surge in miniatures gaming and it can expand into other periods!

I truly hope AH will make a ton of money off of this line and we see these little plastic minis for many years to come.

[vogless]

I like you're thinking Redcoat. If I like this and go through the time of making terrain (I started 2 days after the big announcment), it would rock to have other time periods too! Also, an A&A naval game would be a sweet stand alone game.

[RichardBaker]

I'm a former naval officer and a big WW II naval buff. I've got a couple of WW II naval battle game "sketches" stuffed into notebooks at home, so I sure hope we do something like that too. The big problem is that ship minis have to be vastly out of scale with tank and plane minis. A 1/120th tank miniature is about 2 inches long, but a battleship at the same scale is about 80 inches long. (That's more than 6 feet!) So we'd have to go more like 1/2000 or 1/2400. Also, naval engagement ranges can be quite long. So it really is a very different game. But I'd sure love to do it.

[TrimChris]

Yeah, a 6 foot battleship "Mini" would be sweet.

[vogless]

I figured it would have to be a different game, actually that would be better. No rule saying you can't call it A&A Naval War or some such. It's cool to hear you've already given it some thought.

[SeattleGamer]

Richard . . . many thanks for all you have been able to share. I understand the difference between designer and product manager. You cannot possibly design anything that will be all things to all people. You've got a set of specs and I can only assume talented people are working as hard as they can to meet the specs and exceed customer expectations.

Please don't take our collective "back-seat driving" as a sign of disrespect. From the tone of the posts I've read, I think I speak for everyone when I say we want AH to release the best WWII minis game ever, that is so wildly popular, you can't crank out expansion packs and new supplements fast enough!

It's just that to many of us (and I confess to being totally new to WWII minis gaming), even a cursory glance at "the competition" or "the market" would have someone walking away with the impression that folks expect their tanks to be a single model regardless of scale (even 6mm minis are not released with multiple tanks on a single stand) and their infantry in a cluster with multiple figures on the base.

This was apparently not part of your spec for whatever reason, and that's fine, but many of us are groaning because it appears you came "this" close to grabbing a much larger audience. We're in the stands, pulling for you, rooting for our team, and we want you to win the gold (in terms of sales, which would spawn follow-up expansions, and bring more gamers into the fold, etc).

[RichardBaker]

Understood. I'd really like to spell out more about my take on the marketing, market share, and competition, but it's just not my place to do so.

[TomJag3]

A 1:2400 naval miniatures game would be great. Miniatures are already available for nearly anything that was afloat during WWI and WWII. Of course, there's several great WWII boardgames already out there. Avalanche Press does some excellent work.
http://www.avalanchepress.com/index.php

[gamesy]

[QUOTE=ArtBraune]It seems to me that this game's primary target should be the Flames of War crowd, then it's secondary target should be the rest of the WWII mini gamers, and then it's tertiary target should be folks that do not fall into either of the first two categories.


I totally disagree. A&A was never intended for the hardcore WWII board gamer, ala Flames of War. Let's face it, the regular A&A game has probably sold more copies in one good year than Flames of War probably has to date. A&A has always been for the casual gamer looking for a WWII war game that plays fast and is fun. F-U-N. No reading a 50-page rule book that is written on a college-level, no measuring tapes, no 20 sided dice.

That market has potentially more players, and more money than the hardcore gamer audience. You can't dis A&A for marketing every variant of their game to that crowd, because that's who they make their games for. At least the minis can be used for other 15mm scale games.

[GoblinSlayer]

[QUOTE=ArtBraune]It seems to me that this game's primary target should be the Flames of War crowd, then it's secondary target should be the rest of the WWII mini gamers, and then it's tertiary target should be folks that do not fall into either of the first two categories.


I totally disagree. A&A was never intended for the hardcore WWII board gamer, ala Flames of War. Let's face it, the regular A&A game has probably sold more copies in one good year than Flames of War probably has to date. A&A has always been for the casual gamer looking for a WWII war game that plays fast and is fun. F-U-N. No reading a 50-page rule book that is written on a college-level, no measuring tapes, no 20 sided dice.

That market has potentially more players, and more money than the hardcore gamer audience. You can't dis A&A for marketing every variant of their game to that crowd, because that's who they make their games for. At least the minis can be used for other 15mm scale games.

I agree this game isn't for hardcore gamers it's for the people who already play pre painted mini games and for people who haven't played minis yet.

[ArtBraune]

I totally disagree. A&A was never intended for the hardcore WWII board gamer, ala Flames of War. Let's face it, the regular A&A game has probably sold more copies in one good year than Flames of War probably has to date. A&A has always been for the casual gamer looking for a WWII war game that plays fast and is fun. F-U-N. No reading a 50-page rule book that is written on a college-level, no measuring tapes, no 20 sided dice.

That market has potentially more players, and more money than the hardcore gamer audience. You can't dis A&A for marketing every variant of their game to that crowd, because that's who they make their games for. At least the minis can be used for other 15mm scale games.

I guess we are agreeing to disagree...

I do not take WH, 40K, and FoW folks to be "hardcore" wargamers. The FoW rules do not require a college reading level. They do require using a measuring tape (not much more complicated than counting hexes), they do use six-sided dice (same dice type as A&A Minis), and the FoW rules are FAST and FUN.

I DID NOT disrespect WotC/AH in their marketing of the A&A Minis. I did make recommendations to TPTB to try and garner more of the FoW market share. I believe there is an untapped market that will buy these minis to play not only with the basic A&A Minis game rules, but also more advanced sets of rules. Keep in mind this is my OPINION.

I do agree that A&A has probably sold way more games than FoW. This is for a variety of reasons...

Have no doubts - I WILL be buying these figs.

Ciao!
Art

[ArtBraune]

I agree this game isn't for hardcore gamers it's for the people who already play pre painted mini games and for people who haven't played minis yet.

Again - the A&A Minis rules are more basic, but the pre-painted vehicles and infantry open this product up to folks that never had the time, inclination, or skills to paint minis for use with other game rules.

I have no doubt that quite a few "Grognards" will be buying these minis. I know I will, as I want to be able to play these types of games with my young son - and I really don't want to see him drop a resin/metal custom painted Tiger tank on the floor.

Ciao!
Art

[JasonR1]

I am not looking for an overly complicated game either. However, I do hope that the game at least “feels” right, and seems to make some sense.

Remember, that because of the historical setting and the scale (something that a person can more readily identify his reality with), you will need at least some things in the system that give the impression of making “real” world sense.

-Jason

[TheFoeHammer]

I will settle for representative realism. An example would be the luck factor being built into the number of 4s,5s, and 6s, you roll. With that mechanic you can still make it impossible for a Stuart to punch a hole in a Tiger.

[MEX10MM]

I personally think the order of the target audience for this games is:
primary target; folks that are NOT MINIS WARGAMERS.
secondary target;WWII mini wargamers.
And last or tertiary target; the Flames of War crowd.
Why would A&A Miniatures try to make a simple WWII game to target the crowd of a "Complex" WWII game?
I think Avalon Hill is trying to make figures for Axis & Allies Miniatures game not trying to make cheap miniatures for other games.
The main target will be all the people that wish to play a "basic" wargame with a WWII theme and dont have the time or ability to paint a lot of miniatures.
I am sure this game will be a great blast and will bring a lot of people (specially young ones) into wargames and then, they can jump or not to a more "complex" game.

[whiteorca]

I agree with this... I am one of those who has neither the time or disposition to go through many painting sessions (and I've been there and done that), and have precious little time for a friendly game... but like wargames. I hope this system measures up with my last great gaming experience... I actually think it will

So let's all keep and open and optimistic mind on it :-)

[AAGeneral]

I see the primary target is for miniature collection (both A&A and non-A&A gamers). The second target is as standard board game (hopes at least get all A&A gamers).

[XAos]

I am not looking for an overly complicated game either. However, I do hope that the game at least “feels” right, and seems to make some sense.

Remember, that because of the historical setting and the scale (something that a person can more readily identify his reality with), you will need at least some things in the system that give the impression of making “real” world sense.
-Jason
I remember compleatly loosing interest in ASL, when a battle showed that a Sherman could beat a Tiger in a 1-on-1 fight about 80% of the time.
(assuming the Sherman kept moving)
I expect shermans to match Tigers at equal points value. It "feels" compleatly wrong when the Sherman wins a 1-on-1 battle. :eek:

[Kaufschtick]

I guess we are agreeing to disagree...

I do not take WH, 40K, and FoW folks to be "hardcore" wargamers. The FoW rules do not require a college reading level. They do require using a measuring tape (not much more complicated than counting hexes), they do use six-sided dice (same dice type as A&A Minis), and the FoW rules are FAST and FUN.

I DID NOT disrespect WotC/AH in their marketing of the A&A Minis. I did make recommendations to TPTB to try and garner more of the FoW market share. I believe there is an untapped market that will buy these minis to play not only with the basic A&A Minis game rules, but also more advanced sets of rules. Keep in mind this is my OPINION.

I do agree that A&A has probably sold way more games than FoW. This is for a variety of reasons...



Have no doubts - I WILL be buying these figs.

Ciao!
Art

I'm with you here, Art. I totally get what you are saying. Watch out :eek: though, there are some very skittish souls on here who seem to be easily spooked at the thought of a "hardcore" game! I think it must be the measuring tape part that gets them! :D

I agree with you though. I'm happy :) to see this type of game being released and will be "on board" with it as well. I also feel that there is a potentially large market out there of people who would buy WWII pre-painted miniatures based on the number of unpainted miniatures that are, and have been for a long time, available. I, personally, can't wait to see the pieces! I have no doubt that they will rock!

I realize that the game designers are interested in making this project the best that they possibly can, and need to be focused on that task, however, all I'm saying is, that they could do both. Sell this game and sell the miniatures as a stand alone product. Wiz Kidz sells prepainted figures for almost everything except WWII! I have long thought that when Wiz Kidz gets around to it, that they would make a killing when they start putting out historical figures!

I'm glad to see someone beat them to the punch! I know alot of people who game, and alot who collect. The gamer folks tend to be using a wide variety of rules, and if one does the miniatures in such a way, one might be able to sell the miniatures to all gamers and to the collectors as well. We'll see how these work out, I have a good feeling that these will be much better than people may think ;) !

[vogless]

We have NO doubt Art! :)

[PANZERBUNNY]

"It seems to me that this game's primary target should be the Flames of War crowd"

I dont think the models for this game will be able to touch the quality/detail when it comes down to it.
The only FOW players that may look to this as an alternative are the ones who either cant spend the money to get into the game or the ones that are cheap and wont spend the money to get into the game.
Then it comes down to actually trying to convince others in your gaming group to play you with your wee plastic tanks.

The majority of the FOW player base seems to be a mature 25+ crowd(mostly alot older then that) that dont mind forking over the $ for metal/resin minis.

From the looks of things it seems like this game isn't being targetted at an older range at all, but the younger crowds. NO problem with that all as it will hopefully wind up as an introduction to the genre and when they want more of a challenge they will go a looking.

Will this game have platoon organisation?
I think that would be the mian issue with me as seeing "historically accurate" models wander around a table map piecemeal in no unit org. kinda defeats the purpose of calling it historically accurate at all.

ah well.

[JasonR1]

"It seems to me that this game's primary target should be the Flames of War crowd"

I dont think the models for this game will be able to touch the quality/detail when it comes down to it.
The only FOW players that may look to this as an alternative are the ones who either cant spend the money to get into the game or the ones that are cheap and wont spend the money to get into the game.
Then it comes down to actually trying to convince others in your gaming group to play you with your wee plastic tanks.



Although it may be true that the target is younger, I think that this statement about “affordability” is way off base.

The main problem I have and I think many folks have as well, is the fact that you have to actually PAINT and actually mount those things. I just do not want to sit there and paint and mount etc, just so I can play. I was hoping that this would be a nice alternative, but for me and I know many others, it has nothing to do with affordability.

-Jason

[PANZERBUNNY]

okay...I'll conceed that it DOES take a long time to get a REALLY good painted army(if u have even some skills at it), but in the end I honestly think its worth it. Took me about a good 2 months of on/off painting to get my 1500 point german force done. They look pretty damn good I must say
Since I actually enjoy doing it though...its not so bad.

I honestly blame it on our surroundings/society and how EVERYTHING must be instant gratification. No one has time for anything.
The younger kinds that are into minis games that need painting dont even bother anymore. I see the 40k kids down at the local shop and they all have metal armies or primed armies. Its depressing really.

Some people just dont have time and I can respect that.
I think I could play this game, but I couldn't take it seriously over other games with a more accurate feel to their system. It may be a fun afternoon, but past that...*shrugs*

[VFults]

The main problem I have and I think many folks have as well, is the fact that you have to actually PAINT and actually mount those things. I just do not want to sit there and paint and mount etc, just so I can play. I was hoping that this would be a nice alternative, but for me and I know many others, it has nothing to do with affordability.

After spending hundreds of man-hours painting Warhammer 40K minis, I'm sick of looking at a paint brush. I am attracted to A&AM because it is a ready to play game with no painting involved. If I feel like it, I'll do some touch-ups on the models, but my time is too limited these days to spend hours painting toy soldiers.

Regards,

V