Attack mechanic

[Chairman7w]

I'm really looking forward to this game. I have every D&D mini set, now it looks like I'm gonna be on the hook here, too. Oh well, I don't really need food, do I?

Anyway, on to my question: I read that when you roll the D6s, a 4,5 or 6 is a hit.

What does that mean? Is something that is hit automatically destroyed? Are there a number of "hits" each unit can take?

Looking at the card, I can't quite figure that out. The speed and ranges are easy enough to figure out, but I can't quite get my arms around the attack mechanic.

Anybody in the know?

[Arnminster]

Per a previous post it was said that the full rules will be downloadable sometime in July

[XAos]

My current guess is you role dice equal to you attack factor.
Count up the hits (i.e. 4, 5 & 6's}
Deduct the targets armour.
And whats left is how much damage you cause.
So at range 2 an M13/40 would roll 8 dice against a T-34, probable score 4 hits & do no damage through the T-34's armour:5. The T-34 would roll 11 dice, average 5 or 6 hits, i.e. presumably 1 or 2 damage thru the M13's armour:4? which given the M13's inflamability will probably destroy it.
I would be interested to know more about the exact movement sequence, e.g. Is the turn broken down into "phases" where each player movea 2 figures or a squad, the way it is in D&D minis.?
My only guess on movement so far is that the M13's speed:3 is bad. e.g. if in the example above the T-34 moved to range 5 from the M13/40. Then the M13/40 would either want to get out of range or close to 1 hex to have some chance of damaging the T-34. With speed:3 it could do neither.

[elindo]

I would have to agree, the M13/40 looks to be purely an anti-infantry weapon at best. Possibly it could go toe to toe with an M3 Honey though.;) I wonder if there will be a"magic bullet" factor like rolling a 20 is always a hit in D&D rpg? Probably not but it could add to the playability of the historically based lower stats of lesser vehicles by going to the swarm strategy. Otherwise the Tigers/Panthers and other late war models on both sides will rule the game. I guess the evening factor is the point value system based on each units strength.

[GoblinSlayer]

What does that mean? Is something that is hit automatically destroyed? Are there a number of "hits" each unit can take?

Looking at the card, I can't quite figure that out. The speed and ranges are easy enough to figure out, but I can't quite get my arms around the attack mechanic.

Anybody in the know?

My guess is that each Tank can take the same amount of damage or hits. This way they don't have to print it on the card.

[Arnminster]

From looking at the card I would guess that the first number on the Defense rating is the number you have to roll (or better) to get a hit and the second number is the number of hits the unit can take.

The T34 is 5/5 so you would have to roll a 5 or better to do a hit and it can take 5 hits before being destroyed

The Humber 3/2 you would have to roll a 3 or better to hit and it can take 2 hits before being destroyed.

[StyxParadox]

I was thinking the 3/2 was front/side armor... But that might be too much for a minis game.

[Arnminster]

In D&D Minis and Star Wars Minis there is no facing. I am assuming that they will follow the same general principle for this game.

If they follow the same concept then the rules are being written to play a game in 1 hour and facing issues tend to cause problems with this. It also makes it easier because it does not matter which way you face the mini as long as its in a specific hex.

[Major Adler]

hmmm...

I was thinking that a 4 , 5 or 6 are a hit...the effectiveness of your weapon represented by the number of dice you roll at a particular range...

the first defensive number is the number of hit pts. you need to knock out the tank/unit with a head-on shot...the second defensive number is the number of hit pts. you need to take out the tank/unit with a side or rear shot...

it would be an all or nothing shot...in other words the number of die you roll and the number of 4s,5s or 6s you get...would equal the effectiveness of that particular shot...so you either you knock it out or you do not...if not you will have to take another shot...not damage points would be assigned...

it seems like a rather simple system...the playability/historic virtues relying on the reseach done to assign the weapons effectiveness(number of dice rolled) at various ranges vs. a tank/units defense factor...

the evaluation of the attack sequence as mentioned by XAos...is excellent as well...

Adler...out..................

[skeevo666]

it would be an all or nothing shot...in other words the number of die you roll and the number of 4s,5s or 6s you get...would equal the effectiveness of that particular shot...so you either you knock it out or you do not...if not you will have to take another shot...not damage points would be assigned...

Except the stat card for the M13/40 mentions "receiving a Damaged counter" :eek:


.

[Plagued]

it would be an all or nothing shot...in other words the number of die you roll and the number of 4s,5s or 6s you get...would equal the effectiveness of that particular shot...so you either you knock it out or you do not...if not you will have to take another shot...not damage points would be assigned...


I'm not sure exactly if the system you mentioned is what you "wish" were in the game, or what you expect to be in the game. So I'll only mention that if it's what you expect to be in the game, that there likely won't be an all-or-nothing shooting system.

One of the card previews mentions "Damaged Counters." Specifically the M13/40. So it appears that tanks can suffer multiple successful hits.

[Major Adler]

I do see that...so...

pehaps the first number is the number of hit points(4s,5s,6s rolled) you need to inflict a damage counter...and the number of damage counters/points required to destroy the vehicle is the second number...

Adler..out..................

[TheFoeHammer]

In D&D Minis and Star Wars Minis there is no facing. I am assuming that they will follow the same general principle for this game.


But this is a hex game, as opposed to D&D and Star Wars which are squares. Hex games tend to lend themselves to facing rules. Also Front/Side armor is a major factor in any armor related game.

As far as the rules go, from the chat log I gathered that you have to get a number of hits equal or greater to the targets defense to damage and certain lighter tanks are immediately killed when damaged. I think we'll have to wait until we see more rules to be sure though.

Personally I hope front/side armor is represented.

[Hedgehobbit]

As far as the rules go, from the chat log I gathered that you have to get a number of hits equal or greater to the targets defense to damage and certain lighter tanks are immediately killed when damaged. I think we'll have to wait until we see more rules to be sure though.
From the T-34 special rule, we know that normally if you score higher than the number listed you score two points of damage. The T-34 special rule moves that up to 2 higher.

Personally I hope front/side armor is represented.
I don't think it will be. Notice that the card doesn't specify if the weapons are in a turret or not. That's pretty important if you are using facing.


Aaron

[RichardBaker]

Here's the quick synopsis:

1. Roll a number of D6 equal to your attack value for the range.

2. Count up the number of 4+ results.

3. Compare this total to the target's armor rating. For soldiers, it doesn't matter which way they were facing. But vehicles have front armor and rear armor, and those numbers may be very different.

4. If the number of hits = the target's armor, you'll disrupt it. If the number of hits exceeds the target's armor, you'll damage it (a vehicle already damaged is destroyed by a second damage result). If the number of hits = twice the target's armor, you destroy it all in one go. Soldiers can't be damaged--they're either disrupted or dead.

5. Assuming you don't get hit again next turn, you'll shake off your disrupted result. But damage lasts forever, at least in the context of our game.

Hope that helps.

[Arnminster]

Thanks Richard


That clarification makes the card stats much more understandable.

The only additional question I have now is: Does facing affect weapon arcs for vehicles?

[TheFoeHammer]

Thanks Richard,

Can you explain how that relates to the Special Text for "Heavy Armor 2" on the T34/76?

[GoblinSlayer]

Thanks a bunch Rich!
and welcome to the boards Foe!

[Redleg]

I posted this originally on another forum...but it probably belongs here...

So let's take this one step further and apply what we know...

T34 Tank:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?...le/ah200506107b

Versus Armor (The Tank symbol, and I'll assume this applies to any vehicle)
At Short Range (0-1 Hex): 13
At Medi Range (2-4 Hex): 11
At Long Range (5-8 Hex): 10
Defense 5/5 (Still uncertain what the difference between the first and second number: Front/Rear? Front/Side?)
Superior Armor 2: An attack must defeat this unit's armor by two in order to score two hits against it.

Carro/Armato M13 Tank:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?...cle/ah20050610a

Versus Armor
At Short Range (0-1 Hex): 10
At Medi Range (2-4 Hex): 8
At Long Range (5-8 Hex): 6
Defense 4/3
Highly Flammable: When this unit receives a damage counter, roll a die. On a 3 or higher, it is destroyed immediately

So if a T34 is shooting at an M13 at 2 Hexes, does it roll 11 dice to resolve one attack? That seems like a lot of dice rolling (anybody remember the Shadowrun or White Wolf RPGs?)

Anyways...the T34 rolls potentially all 11 dice and scores 6 rolls of 4 or more (6 hits). 6 hits versus 4 armor is equal to a damage counter. The M13 rolls it's "special ability" and is potentially destroyed immediately.

Interesting. It seems like a lot of dice to resolve Armor on Armor but...who knows. Funny that the starter only comes with 8 6 sided dice.

Here's something else, the text for the T34 specifies "must exceed by 2 or more" in order to score 2 hits. How does someone score "2 hits" and what's it mean?

As a side note...the Scout car has an Attack rating of 2 against all types of armor...so the thing couldn't even touch a tank. I like that...Armor really means Invulnerability against certain troop types...just like it should.

I'm not 100% sold on the game yet...I don't want to be slinging 100 plus dice per turn for my Armor Company to attack...but it is an interesting concept.

Let's see how artillery plays into it all.

[skeevo666]

Here's something else, the text for the T34 specifies "must exceed by 2 or more" in order to score 2 hits. How does someone score "2 hits" and what's it mean?

I think that's 2 hits as in "2nd hit that would destroy tank"

from RichardBaker's post:
If the number of hits exceeds the target's armor, you'll damage it (a vehicle already damaged is destroyed by a second damage result).

I take this to mean if you've already scored one hit on a T34, the second hit must beat the armor by 2 (not just the normal 1) to get another hit (and thus destroy it.)

[XAos]

Thanks for the explanation of attacks Richard;
I suspect if I had seen an infantry card, before you wrote that. I would have guessed the single defense value was "Hiits" with the infantries armour being wholly determined by the terrain it is in :confused: We might have "deduced" an entirly different rules set by the time the game was published ;)

I hope the rulebook has an appendix to clarify the T-34's "superior armour". Because the card is very poorly worded :confused:
If it means what skeev0666 guessed it would have been much clearer to write "2nd hit" than "2 hits" on the card. :confused:

[Mierow]

When I read the ability:

Defense 5/5
Superior Armor 2: An attack must defeat this unit's armor by two in order to score two hits against it.

Here's what I took it to mean. Instead of just getting 5 rolls of 4+ to hit and cause "disruption" as I believe Richard put it, you would need 7 rolls of 4+.

I'd still like to know what and how distruption plays into it, and his comment on how you shake it off at the end of the round. Does it cut movement or attack values down? Anywho.

Just my 2 cents.

[SeattleGamer]

I'm guessing "Disruption" means going to ground/bailing out depending on the unit type. Causes no damage, but you are, in effect, "pinned" and thus unable to do anything.

So, I nail your forward infantry and/or anti-tank units with artillery, get them to hunker down, and advance my tanks and infantry. In your turn, those units pinned cannot shoot at me (to busy taking cover).

When I arrive for the assault, you will get to defend yourselves however. This would be a classic combined-arms example, and something they are trying to accomplish in the rules I believe. But I'm only guessing.

[skeevo666]

Let's see how artillery plays into it all.


Well how do you like this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=ah/article/ah20050624a), bunky? :D

Specifically-

Bombardment: This unit's attacks ignore cover :eek:

[Redleg]

Well how do you like this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=ah/article/ah20050624a), bunky? :D

Specifically-

Bombardment: This unit's attacks ignore cover :eek:

Pretty sweet.

It doesn't sound like they're taking the call for fire, time of flight, or predictive targeting into account for artillery. Not as accurate...but simple for miniature gaming.

My only complaint is that if the sIG 33 has a range of 4700 meters while the T34 can "effectively engage enemy up to 1800 meters," then the artillery should not have the same range factors as the tank.

If the tank can shoot 8 hexes at long range, the artillery long range should be more than 8 hexes.

At least they got bombardment right.

I wonder if massing fires will have a better effect in game play.

[Platoon Crusher]

If the tank can shoot 8 hexes at long range, the artillery long range should be more than 8 hexes.

They seem to be putting an artificial range cap on units for playability sake. I assume the range values on the cards are for your information only and not meaning much as far as the game goes.... :rolleyes:

Sounds like a beer and pretzles game and I like those too :D

[Plagued]

There may be a mechanic in the game for indirect fire. The card seems to suggest a blast area or template, it's entirely plausible that there's a seperate combat type for artillery.

If not, it's certainly not difficult to use a house rule that says "double range on all artillery."

[RichardBaker]

I took a bit of a shortcut in my explanation. Basically... if someone scores hits = to your defense, you get a hit marker; the first hit marker you get is a disrupted marker. If someone scores hits > your defense, you get two hit markers: a disrupted and a damaged marker (tanks do, anyway; infantry just die). If you receive hits >= twice your defense, you get a destroyed marker too. In the Casualty step, these markers go into effect.

Worth noting: multiple hits roll up the effect. So, somebody who's disrupted twice in the same round of fire will be damaged too; somebody who's damaged twice will be destroyed.

So, what the T-34's good armor does is this: If you score hits = its defense, it's disrupted. If you score hits = its defense +1, it's disrupted. If you score hits = its defense +2, it's disrupted and damaged. It's got 2 numbers at which it can be disrupted. That sounds like a liability, but remember, another tank with the same defense rating would be damaged by hits = its defense +1, and the T-34 is merely disrupted by that shot.



When I read the ability:

Defense 5/5
Superior Armor 2: An attack must defeat this unit's armor by two in order to score two hits against it.

Here's what I took it to mean. Instead of just getting 5 rolls of 4+ to hit and cause "disruption" as I believe Richard put it, you would need 7 rolls of 4+.

I'd still like to know what and how distruption plays into it, and his comment on how you shake it off at the end of the round. Does it cut movement or attack values down? Anywho.

Just my 2 cents.

[Shrapnelsmile]

Thanks for the feedback Richard. Since I know you're invested in this thread, I'll drop a request:

The preview today was helpful, and the sculpt is nice. As you know, we are curious as all heck about the infantry fundamentals, special abilities, appearance, etc. Despite the headache it will be for you to read through our impulsive reactions, hostile assumptions, criticisms, cheers and jeers and insomnia analysis from impatient gamers the country over, I ask you this:

can you find the strength within to preview an infantry unit next week?

I checked my email at work five times this morning, more excited than a Japanese schoolgirl at a Linkin' Park concert, hoping to see one hit the screen. I can't believe I just admitted that. :p

[skeevo666]

I checked my email at work five times this morning, more excited than a Japanese schoolgirl at a Linkin' Park concert, hoping to see one hit the screen. I can't believe I just admitted that. :p

Me either :eek:

[Shrapnelsmile]

This thread was so damn good until I jumped in. Let's get it back on track ha ha.


Any speculation on "formation fire" similar to Mechwarrior? As infantry can be present more than one to a hex, and the squad issue is up in the air but we seem to understand where they are going with casualty removal, etc., I'm curious as to the power ratio of infantry and their pros/cons vs. the obvious benefit of heavy armor.