Miniatures mis-conceptions

[Der Panzinator]

I keep running into this underlying conflict between people who play miniatures wargames and those that don't. Seems that both sides are a bit stubborn in their views and I'm not sure why the conflicts arise at all. After all this is just a game and it's not even out yet. Seems a lot of speculation has already set people in their ways...

The one thing that needs to be cleared up is the mis-conception that ALL miniatures wargames are 50 page rulebooks that require a mathematics degree to play. :eek:

This is simply not true these days! In fact most new rulesets are fast play, fairly simple games. Most of them actually take much less time to play then A&A!
I can play a game of A&A that goes for 8 to 10 hours or more. I don't think I've ever played a miniatures game that lasted more then a couple of hours.
By nature they are set piece battles that once one sides forces are depleted the game is over. The one exception was a modern MicroArmour game that was played with over 1,000 pieces on a 8'x12' terrain table...

A great example of a easy to play WWII minatures game is Blitzkrieg Commander. In this game you basically move your pieces or fire. You use a tape measure to check move distance and range. (Anyone that has used a tape measure must surely understand that the operation of a tape measure is not an advanced concept that requires a college degree.)
The attack procedure is roll a number of six-sided dice based on the type of unit. Rolls of 4,5, and 6 hit if the target is in open terrain. 5,6 if in cover. The target unit may make armour save rolls if it is a tank. Any hits not saved are totalled and if there is more hits then the units hit points the unit is destroyed. Hits are cumulative for all attacking units per turn.
It's actually very simple and moves along very quickly. I have found that we come up with much less delay in rules lawyering with this game then we ever do playing A&A. So any arguments about miniatures games being too complicated is bogus. Yes, there are plenty of games from the 70's and 80's that are only enjoyable by total die-hard grognards. But there is fair share of great rulesets out there as well.

As a A&A gamer since 1985 I can say that I think the approach that AH is taking is probably the best way to break into their already established market. By keeping things simple and still based on a game board this will be a great gateway game to ease people into miniatures gaming. It's obvious that this is the current fad with the Star Wars, D&D, Mechwarrior, etc... It's big money! And they want an in to another lucrative crowd.

I think that we will see this game branch out in many different directions based on what different people want from this game. Seems like everyone wants it to be "only" what they think is best. Lets let this thing ease in and mature on its own. I'm excited to see where it takes us all!

We can all speculate on units, rules, maps, etc... The constant back and forth about what AH should be doing is completely pointless. WoTC is a BIG company that can probably take care of its own business and I'm sure they already know everything that is being discussed. For whatever reasons they have made the game the way they did so it is our jobs to enjoy it as much as we can! Arguing about why it should or should not be like other miniatures games is rather pointless. :cool:

[Plagued]

Not to drastically de-rail this into off-topic land. (I agree with you wholeheartedly, btw.) However, how are those new Blitzkrieg Commander rules when it comes to 6mm? I'm hearing a lot of good things about the book, but none of them regarding how well it does multi-scaling.

[Moderator Sinister]

MY comments were about warhammer. Honestly there are many many miniature systems that play quick these days because that's what people want.


This might bring some perspective. Recently I played a D-day game with a buddy of mine who had breakout normandy and another d-day game (I can't remember the name of it) that broke the battle into companies. He told me he's NEVER gotten a game of it in. While many AH games are very good and very complex this is the argument that we face going into the new era of gaming. People don't have time to sit around like they did in the 60s, 70s, and 80s to play these uber complicated games anymore. It's hard enough to get people to play a game that lasts two hours let alone games that last 10+ hours.

I'm not knocking these old game, many of them are terrific but people don't want to play them because they don't want to invest the time. That's why almost every game company targets their games for 3 hours or less.

[Der Panzinator]

Sinister is exactly correct.

Seems like people in general have busier lifestyles and the time left for leisure activities is slowly dwindling down all the time. Its a shame really. I remember sitting around in the summer for days trying to think of things to do. Mostly we would go swimming, ride bikes, play some sort of ball, or whatever.
I guess that younger people are expected to be more involved in organized activities and then the internet, computer games, movies, etc... take the much of the remaining time.
For us older guys there is of course jobs, families, the chaos of day to day life, etc...

I can maybe get one and if I'm lucky two short games in a month. For any of use to play a 12 hour + multiple day game nowaday's would be as likely as a snowball in hell... :rolleyes:

[GoblinSlayer]

Yeah you guys are exactly right, I'm 14 and I'm the only kid in my school (of at least 400 students) who plays any type of war game. Most kids are to busy with their social lifes to even think of haveing a hobby.

[Platoon Crusher]

another d-day game (I can't remember the name of it) that broke the battle into companies. He told me he's NEVER gotten a game of it in.


"The Longest Day" is the title you refer to I believe. An older AH title. It is truly a mega game. There are I believe more than 1000 pieces in the game and they are all in identified with military style symbols. So it is a bit hard to know at first what each of the pieces are. Also the map has many sections of boards to make up the whole Normandy area and you would need a gaming table the size of a decent miniature table to set it on.... Your "normal" playing table would not do at all. ( by the way, I've never played it either ;) )

I agree with Sinister and Der Panzinator completely in this thread. Most people these days don't have the time for alot of gaming. So the A&A style of games are a very good way to get your dice rolling done with such limited play time available.

I have been into "War gaming" since I was about 12 years old and that was the early '70's. I have many older AH boardgames and have been into miniatures for over 20 years now too. I remember when A&A first came out and I was into it then. I havn't played it as much as I would like recently though.

I am rather excited about these minis comming out and can separate what they and other minis are like. I don't expect them to be exactly scale or care for that matter. I have many many other miniatures in 15 mm scale for tabletop gaming. If they are close enough to the same scale as those then fine...I may use them as well in a mini game. If they are not close then thats fine too. I will be just as happy using them for A&A like they are meant to be used. It's all good as far as I'm concerned. It's all about the fun factor anyways right? :)

[Kaufschtick]

I agree with Sinister and Der Panzinator completely in this thread. Most people these days don't have the time for alot of gaming. So the A&A style of games are a very good way to get your dice rolling done with such limited play time available.

I have been into "War gaming" since I was about 12 years old and that was the early '70's. I have many older AH boardgames and have been into miniatures for over 20 years now too. I remember when A&A first came out and I was into it then. I havn't played it as much as I would like recently though.

I am rather excited about these minis comming out and can separate what they and other minis are like. I don't expect them to be exactly scale or care for that matter. I have many many other miniatures in 15 mm scale for tabletop gaming. If they are close enough to the same scale as those then fine...I may use them as well in a mini game. If they are not close then thats fine too. I will be just as happy using them for A&A like they are meant to be used. It's all good as far as I'm concerned. It's all about the fun factor anyways right? :)

I think "you said it", brother! I'm with you on this one. :)

[VFults]

As a kid, I played war games with the old Airfix plastic knights, Napoleonics, and Colonials. As an adult, I've played Warhammer, 40K, Void, Battletech, and others. But the older I've gotten, the less time I've had to paint minis and play long games.

A&AM will allow me to play right out of the box, and I think it'll be easier to find players because the investment in the game will be smaller in comparison to more traditional minis games. Any game which brings new players into the hobby and brings back former players is a good thing.

Regards,

V

[SeattleGamer]

Platoon C . . . you're probably my long lost twin. I could have posted a nearly identical message, right down to gaming with AH boardgames way back when (my first game was in 1969, age 11).

And VF . . . your words ring true as well. The older I get, the less time I have to paint and play. I have a modest amount of free time, I can spend it painting, playing, reading, hiking, etc. I'm hoping this game brings new blood into the hobby, and I too believe it will be easier to find opponents for this than, say, The Longest Day (which I wanted to buy just for the historical research and the detailed maps, but I passed on it because even then I knew I'd never get to play it).

[TrimChris]

Y'all are crazy. I just picked up a copy of the Longest Day and surely I'll get in 2 or 3 games of it before the summer is out.

[TrimChris]

Okay, okay. It's going to be a struggle to get in half a game. But I'm going to go for it!

[Platoon Crusher]

Y'all are crazy. I just picked up a copy of the Longest Day and surely I'll get in 2 or 3 games of it before the summer is out.

Yes we probably are crazy TrimChris. Anyways I like your style ;) good luck!

[Moderator Sinister]

Okay, okay. It's going to be a struggle to get in half a game. But I'm going to go for it!


Yeah that's the name of the game and we are going to try to get in a game of it as well. Maybe I'll post the battle report here provided they up the server space...LOL I'm guessing it will be a 50 page battle report.

[SeattleGamer]

Hey Trim . . . I like your enthusiasm! But you might as well surrender now and go play something else. If you allow an entire 8 hour block of time, you can probably get the game set-up in 2 hours. Then you can read the rules to a friend for the next hour easy. In your last 5 hours, you might actually get in 5-6 turns (what with rules questions and look-ups). Of course, maybe there is a really small starting scenario for learning the rules. If so, you might have a chance to get in a few more turns.

But this is a game with a 44x55" map and 1500 counters! No way you are playing a campaign game. I double-dog dare you to play it! ;-)

(I'd just like to know someone, anyone, who ever actually punched out counters and played this monster).

[PatriotUSA]

Seems like people in general have busier lifestyles and the time left for leisure activities is slowly dwindling down all the time. Its a shame really. I remember sitting around in the summer for days trying to think of things to do. Mostly we would go swimming, ride bikes, play some sort of ball, or whatever.
I guess that younger people are expected to be more involved in organized activities and then the internet, computer games, movies, etc... take the much of the remaining time.
For us older guys there is of course jobs, families, the chaos of day to day life, etc...

The problem is the rise of two wage earner families (which includes mine). When mom stayed home, kids could have a lazy summer. Nowadays mom works, so kids have to be somewhere and doing something supervised all the time, even in the summer. Same problem with "lazy afternoons." School may end at 2:30 or 3 o'clock, but without an adult home, the kids stay in afterschool care or some other school related activity until the grown-ups come home from work.

So the "lazy summer" is a victim of womens' entry into the workplace. That's not a bad thing (my wife works, and her life and my family's life is greatly enriched by that) its just a fact.

[Platoon Crusher]

Hey Trim . . . I like your enthusiasm! But you might as well surrender now and go play something else. If you allow an entire 8 hour block of time, you can probably get the game set-up in 2 hours. Then you can read the rules to a friend for the next hour easy. In your last 5 hours, you might actually get in 5-6 turns (what with rules questions and look-ups). Of course, maybe there is a really small starting scenario for learning the rules. If so, you might have a chance to get in a few more turns.

But this is a game with a 44x55" map and 1500 counters! No way you are playing a campaign game. I double-dog dare you to play it! ;-)

(I'd just like to know someone, anyone, who ever actually punched out counters and played this monster).


Hmmmm.... I don't know about that SeattleGamer. I think you may be a bit overly optimistic regarding how much gaming they may get in within 8 hrs. I bet it would take more time to get that much done. ;) Hey I would like to see TC get a game in and post results here too. I know better though. :p

I agree with SeattleGamer here and you should give it up now and play something you can have a conclusion to within a few hours. You'll never finish the monster!

SG When I got the game many years ago I did actually punch the counters and bag them but, I was a little overwhelmed by the size of it and never played it. I figured Blitzkreig or maybe Panzer Leader/Blitz was more doable... ;)

[GFMRommel]

A great Basic Infantry game, Company level, "I ain't been shot mum, mum". Simple but elegant worth checking out Loved it the firs time I played it.


http://www.toofatlardies.co.uk/

[Sgt Barker]

(I'd just like to know someone, anyone, who ever actually punched out counters and played this monster).

That would be me. Not once, but twice. 4x8 sheet of plywood, 3 buddies. Lots of Saturdays and Sundays. Allies won both times.

We played Fire in the East/Scortched Earth to a decision twice as well. Once a German win in early 42, the other a Soviet win (by concession) in late 1943. We also played Red Barricades, from stem to stern, at least two times - ASL was our game life by the early 90s. We did a lot of monster things back in the day.

I actually wish my Longest Day was still unpunched; it's going for over $200 on eBay. :)

But it is a new era, and "realism" (a foggy notion at best) takes a back seat to quick play in board games. (I tend to do PC games when looking for a complex game now anyway.) I'm just looking forward to getting my son to do SOMETHING game wise that has T-34s in it. :cool:

[TrimChris]

To realistically play a Monster game, it pretty much requires leaving it set-up and then playing at a regular interval. Some of my buds are playing Streets of Stalingrad one Saturday a month. They have multiple players for each side so players can rotate in and out based on availability for a particular Saturday.

[SeattleGamer]

First, my hearty congratulations to Sgt Barker for having completed seveal monster game sin his day. Excellent work Sergeant! Happy to know someone who has played that bad boy. You apparently had the right mix of friends, and your group either had understanding wives and/or girlfriends or you were sans same.

A long time ago (29 years ago in fact) I had the great pleasure to play to completion SPI's Terrible Swift Sword - for those who are not aware of this game, it's Gettysburg at regimental level, units have ranges, and each turn represents (IIRC) 20 minutes.

It was played at a college, over the summer, as part of a 4-day weekend gaming event. They had a big table where it could be left set-up, and we had players for each of the divisions/corps, plus one for Lee and Meade. It was a once in a lifetime experience, and I look back upon that game with great fondness. These is just something about playing a game that immense to conclusion, you feel like you've climbed a mountain. A real sense of accomplishment.

BTW - I was commanding the troops that on the second day, stormed up little round top (as commemorated in the movie Gettysburg). Actually took the heights (my Texans would not be denied), captured a battery of guns, wheeled them around, and used them to defend my position. My division was a ghost of it's previous self due to casualties, and saw relatively little action on day three. But who cares!

To pull something like that off again I would need a room in my home where I could set-up a game and leave it up (that's not happening), or I'd need a bachelor friend who could do the same (that's not happening either).

TrimChris - I really like your idea of having multiple players per side, and you just rotate them based on their availability. That adds a new wrinkle to the game, that you may have built-up forces to attack in one sector, but then your replacement decides to do something else entirely. Interesting.

[TrimChris]

Even the best generals have to hand off some of their troops while they sleep.

[TomJag3]

I've got The Longest Game (I mean Day) and I'd love to have someone to play against. I enjoy the monster games. I don't know how many times we've played Fire in the East, Terrible Swift Sword, and the rest. Luckily, I've got a basement dedicated to gaming and have several 4x8 tables that I can leave set up for different games. Of course, I have to leave 1 4x8 and 2 4x6 tables open for the monthly gaming group and the casual boardgames we play.

[SeattleGamer]

I want your basement Tom! By the time I get one though, I'll be retired, and so old I'll have forgotten why I wanted that many tables.

[sherminator1]

The one thing that needs to be cleared up is the mis-conception that ALL miniatures wargames are 50 page rulebooks that require a mathematics degree to play. :eek:


Of course not the warhammer rulebook is and you need a doctrate. :D

[Der Panzinator]

I've never played Warhammer. Is it a simple or complex set of rules?

A great set of simple WWII miniatures rules is Blitzkrieg Commander. It is based on the WarMaster rules but changes things a bit for a WWII game. Great fun and easy to learn and play! Plus the support is top-notch.

[sherminator1]

Well they are actually pretty simple but its possible to do some seriously complex manuvers so the rule book has too be huge.

[sherminator1]

Hey! panzy i just noticed that our names are very similiar! Should we like form a club of some sort? and put some symbol next to our names?!??!?! maybe have like a secrete handshake.... Well ok maybe the handshake wouldn't work but still we could like.... (trails off still rambling on)

[skeevo666]

If you want a big, complex rulebook try Star Fleet Battles :cool:

[SeattleGamer]

I was thinking Advanced Squad Leader would take the top honors for most complex rulebook ever (if you used all the optional rules and expansions).

[Sinister]

My vote is magic realm

[TomJag3]

ASL has my vote. Compared to that, Star Fleet Battles is a piece of cake. I refuse to play ASL. Give my the Europa series anyday over that.

[Der Panzinator]

My vote is magic realm

Yeah, what was going on with that game??? :eek:
I had it years ago and thought that it would be a fun fantasy-type game to play with a bunch of people. :rolleyes:
How wrong I was.... Glad I wasn't the only one to be dumb-founded by that game.

Sherminator1,
I would explain the secret handshake here, but then I would have to kill everyone... :eek:

[DocD]

Magic Realm was just dumb! I was so mad I bought that game. I was sure it would be so much fun, only to find it horrible! I tried playing but couldn't get through two hours before tossing it in the trash.

ASL is complex, but it is sensible and fun and that makes a world of difference.

[Sinister]

what kills me is that magic realm is a VERY popular game and I can't figure out what scientists play it.

[slickdog]

I used to play a a WWII miniatures system called Panzertroops back in the early '80's. As I remember, the rules were pretty simple, it was fun to play, and I was able to teach it to my friends fairly easily. I painted about 20 figures and maybe 4 tanks before burning out on the painting, and playing with the shiny metal figures was a drag, so I lost interest. It was thereafter relegated to the top closet shelf along with "Tactics II", "Squad Leader", "Third Reich", "1776", "The Civil War" and the other miscellaneous war games I enjoyed learning but never found anyone to play against.

AAM seems easy enough to play from what I've seen, but it also looks like you could use the minis in other systems if you prefer a more complex game. Just in case the AAM game mechanics are lacking, I'm going to have to go search my parents attic for those Panzertroop rules. While I'm at it I'll be hunting for all the trees, houses, and other terrain features I made.

[DocD]

what kills me is that magic realm is a VERY popular game and I can't figure out what scientists play it.LOL,
True sinister, so true.