The game designers neutered the King of Battle?!

[Redleg]

The more I think about it, the more doubts I have about the game.

Taken from today's preview of German SP Arty:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=ah/article/ah20050624a

And here is the T34 tank:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?...le/ah200506107b

The artillery has a range of 4700m. The tank has an effective range of 1800m. This is according to the historical write up from the retired CSM.

Why are their ranges the exact same on the card?

Is this going to be the trend for every vehicle? A set limit of 8 hexes for max range? Artillery was used to great effect in WWII...To limit it's range like this seems extremely unrealistic.

I'm not saying the range of the arty needs to be 2 or 3 times the tank. I understand constraints due to gameplay and rules balance. But it seems lazy to slap the same range on everything from a Scout Car to a tank to the King of Battle.

I don't agree that a Scout Car with a light machine gun should have the same max range as a T34's 76mm main gun as a 150mm artillery cannon.

Am I out of line for thinking this?

[VFults]

Well, if the game board is like the ones for D&D and Star Wars miniatures,the it will be about 30 x 22 inches, capping range at 8 hexes doesn't seem too bad. A single artillery piece or tank could threaten about a third of the board.

Regards,

V

[Shrapnelsmile]

And keep in mind, the # of dice rolled at Long Range should be much greater for artie and effective units vs. scout cars and such, which dillutes the generic range for each type by allocating power to specific units. Yet this logic does not flow with the game design thus far: both the German artie and the Humber roll 7 dice against infantry at long range. We shall see, or perhaps I am just way off.

[Redleg]

I guess we'll also see how terrain comes into play. If the maps are designed as such that there are so many hills and mountains in the way...indirect fire may become the power that it should be.

As it stands now, both Armor and Artillery threatening 1/3 of the board is inaccurate. I'm not saying Artillery should be even double the range of Armor...but it should have at least 1 free shot before the tank gets into effective weapon range.

Afterall...this is artillery we're talking about, not a mortar system.

[fenyan]

And keep in mind, the # of dice rolled at Long Range should be much greater for artie and effective units vs. scout cars and such, which dillutes the generic range for each type by allocating power to specific units. Yet this logic does not flow with the game design thus far: both the German artie and the Humber roll 7 dice against infantry at long range. We shall see, or perhaps I am just way off.

Good point. Switching the topic to direct fire weapons, I am hoping to see Tigers & Panthers with much better dice at long range than the T-34.

[SeattleGamer]

"Well, if the game board is like the ones for D&D and Star Wars miniatures,the it will be about 30 x 22 inches, capping range at 8 hexes doesn't seem too bad. A single artillery piece or tank could threaten about a third of the board."

Hmmm. VF - I think you might have missed the bit about the boards being 8.5 x 14" with 2" hexes. This means a single board is 4 hexes wide and 7 hexes long (with some half-hexes around the edges). So if you put four of them side-by-side (long side), you would have a board 32" x 14" or about 19 hexes by 7 hexes. So something with a range of 8 hexes, placed in the center of the board, could hit (ignoring LOS rules) almost every hex on the board.

[vogless]

But isn't the sIG 33 a direct fire weapon? It sounded like it wasn't accurate for very far.

[Hedgehobbit]

But isn't the sIG 33 a direct fire weapon? It sounded like it wasn't accurate for very far.
The sIG was an infantry gun, something that the US didn't really have. The gun's barrel was only 11 calibres long, compared to 50 or 60 for a field gun. So the accuracy was on par with mortars rather than artillery. It was the largest infantry gun fielded by any army.

Because it sat on the extreme range of performance (powerful projectile but inaccuate), it is poorly served by the game system that uses one number to determine to-hit and damage. For example, its hollow charge round could easily penetrate a KV1 out to the maximum range (since the penetration of a hollow charge doesn't degrade) but the chances of achieving a hit are miniscule.

[VFults]

Hmmm. VF - I think you might have missed the bit about the boards being 8.5 x 14" with 2" hexes.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I didn't catch the 8.5 x 14 part. I knew the hexes were 2" and assumed the maps would be sized the same as the SW and D&D mini games. Artillery will really be able to reach out and touch someone. :)

Regards,

V

[SeattleGamer]

"Artillery will really be able to reach out and touch someone."

Yes indeed, which is quite accurate actually. I believe more casualties were caused by artillery than anything else.

At least the boards are geomorphic. You could put two in pairs end to end, thus forming a battlefield "corridor" that was 9 hexes wide, and 15 hexes long. Then your artillery will only be able to cover the first half of the battlefield. Of course, if you are on the defense, they've gotta come to you!

I haven't been paying attendion to movement factors. If the AC moves 5 and a typical tank moves 3-4, then artillery will have a couple of turns to hammer any approaching enemy vehicles (LOS aside). I'd guess infantry move only 1 hex, unless they are carried by a transport.

[NewtonCain]

Isn't the AAM arty on board artilliary opposed to off-board artilliary?
Thats why it has the short range.

[Redleg]

Isn't the AAM arty on board artilliary opposed to off-board artilliary?
Thats why it has the short range.

And that makes perfect sense. Like I said, I understand for game mechanics, artillery can't have 2-10 times the range of a direct fire system. However, it's short range shouldn't be identical to a tank or a scout car.

The German system is hopefully only one type of arty. I hope the big guns have longer ranges.

[Major Adler]

since this is a squad level game...I do not understand what medium or heavy artillery is doing represented by vehicles/guns...artillery should be OFF-THE-BOARD...being employed via the use of a medium artillery or heavy artillery FO pc. with appropreate costs assessed for them...

Adler...out..................

[Redleg]

Off the board would be absolutely fine. I just don't want the lazy man's way of same range for artillery and armor when we know in real life artillery would out range armor.

[elindo]

I think the artillery range issue is a moot point. The artilery units being represented are not mean to be used as an indirect roll on this scale of game. Historically the Sexton and other self propelled artilery units were used to great effect as direct fire, infantry support. The mobility provided by "self propelled" description allowed them to keep pace with advancing troops. So, in terms of range relative to this scale of game, i think you have to allow the designers some leway in the actual values assigned. So now we bring up off board artillery and all the baggage of spotters, delay timing, etc. Grab your pretzles, chug a beer and let the six sideds fly I say. Isn't that what A&A is all about?

[Major Adler]

ok...hope we do not see a preview for a U.S. towed 8" howitzer...barrel sighting those big dogs is a real treat...and very authentic...

Adler...out....................

[TheFoeHammer]

LOL. I remember barrel sighting our 105's and the M109 SPs at Ft. Sill. I don't think you could crank the barrel around quick enough to hit anything moving with a WWII 8 incher. (Which of course is your point.)

But the stats on the SIG seem to represent the direct fire role it would play as mentioned. And an upper limit of 8 hexes probably represents the distance the aided or naked eye could see on the battlefield accounting for the horizon.

[Hiro]

LOL. I remember barrel sighting our 105's and the M109 SPs at Ft. Sill. I don't think you could crank the barrel around quick enough to hit anything moving with a WWII 8 incher. (Which of course is your point.)

But the stats on the SIG seem to represent the direct fire role it would play as mentioned. And an upper limit of 8 hexes probably represents the distance the aided or naked eye could see on the battlefield accounting for the horizon.


Thats why I am glad I was on the M109A6 Paladin. Our Direct Fire ranges were a blast, even though we did not have moving targets it was fun to send 155mm of joy down range. Did you ever go to the Impact Zone on Thursday evening for free wings. Redleg, do they still have that. Man they had some good chicken bites too.

[TheFoeHammer]

Is the Impact Zone that bar at the bottom of the BOQ? They had wings there if I recall. Of course I have not been to Sill since 1987.

My favorite part I have to admit was Forward Observing. As much fun as it is to pull the lanyard, or play charts and darts in the FDC, putting steel on target is the real deal!

[Hiro]

Is the Impact Zone that bar at the bottom of the BOQ? They had wings there if I recall. Of course I have not been to Sill since 1987.

My favorite part I have to admit was Forward Observing. As much fun as it is to pull the lanyard, or play charts and darts in the FDC, putting steel on target is the real deal!

It is next to the Sheridan Theatre. I liked being a gunner the best. I had a close call as a 13F and nearly lost my hearing. We had a round fall 400 meters short and it nearly landed on MacKEnzie Hill. Luckily my Gunny was paying closer attention to the sound of the incoming round than I was.

I was there ten years after you. I still visit because my father in law is a 1SG there.

Sorry for high jacking thread. Anyway I was thinking the range is only eight because of the small unit tactics. Look at what the boys from Easy Company did to the German 88's in their attack. I think it is supposed to represent the difficulties of being a long range weapon and fighting in close combat. I do not know for sure, but I would like to be able to call in the King of Battle for some support.

[Redleg]

Hiro...are/were you a 13F or a 13B? I always worked better with my 13Fs...more tuned to infantry than other 13 series. Although my first 1SG was a 13B...and that man taught me a hell of a lot.

The Impact Zone is still there, but I don't frequent it as an officer. They do advertise great deals weekly.

The O Club is gone...replaced with "The Patriot's Club," which is a club for SFC and above. Same concept...just opening the doors to more people.

It's a shame (and I almost feel guilty for saying this), but I'll pick Gertlestone's over any post club any day of the week.

[Hiro]

I was both for awhile. The bad thing about being a fox is the gunbunnies hate you because they think you are infantry and the infantry hate you because you are artillery. Gertlestones is nice, we went there often. If you like Korean food or want to try some, go to the Junction. Great place. My CPT was a greyhound, so he went and bought everyone something from the bar almost every week, underage guys got soda. We did a lot of things as a group. Head out to Mir's in Medicine Par for a 1 lb burger.

[orpheus21]

If you look at some of the cards, you'll notice that some of the german tanks have this ability, which means they'll outrange most of the american tanks if not all of them. It doesn't solve the massive range difference of a tank vs the artillery, but one has to remember that the germans weren't always firing their pieces in a traditional manner, but instead were using some of thier artillery as anti-tank guns and were directly firing on targets.