Making 3D terrains for AAM

[Sean-Khan]

Hello everyone, I just registered... but I already see some familiar names :) I've been fan of WotC plastic miniatures since D&D minis were published, was seduced to Star Wars minis and now am strongly attracted into this game. At first I wasn't interested, but then I realized all the modelling possibilities...

I've already seen talk about scales and ready 3D terrains, but is there anyone here planning to do terrains for this game themselves? I'm an enthusiastic modeller, and after DDM and SWM I realized that this game gives a completely new view to my modelling. I've already done a lot of brainstorming and thought of sharing my thoughts.

The thing causing problems about modelling is the scale; You've seen some preview -photos of the tanks and terrain, and have probably noticed that the maps are in a LOT smaller scale than miniatures. So, if you would use hexes of original size (presumably 2") and terrain of the same scale than miniatures, you would be shooting at maximum range over a backyard garden. But, here's some thoughts I've come to when thinking this through.

About scale - minis are 15mm scale, and I checked that it means 1/107 -scale. First thing I thought was to do terrains at somewhat smaller scale - there's a lot of models in 1:144 -scale, and that's about 25% smaller than the minis scale, so it may look a little to small but probably it's not too disturbing comparing to other options.

Second, using larger than 2" hexes would be more demanding but result a step towards better scale. I've been thinking possibilities between 3" and 4" hexes, but I think I'll go for 3.5" - because 4" would be too large to store and handle IMO. Then, you would just have to forget a little about distances - Even with this scale, maximum range of 8 hexes would be only about 100 metres :( Not perfect, but this has been the best solution I've come to. With the actual miniatures scale and 2" squares, 8 hexes would be about 40 metres. The forests, villages and such will just have to have less buildings, trees etc. to make the distances look longer.

Enlarging squares have another critical effect, too; If you plan them well, you can always leave there space for a tank, if that terrain is supposed to be able to let that kind of unit to stay in it. But terrain types and their needs regarding to units and effects still remain a mystery... If any of developers is reading this, any info would be welcome! :D

I hope this will help those that are willing to make their own terrains! I might later put some kind of tutorials to my site, too; You can see my DDM/SWM -props there now, with some tutorials and guides: http://www.iki.fi/~twilek/

I'd also like to hear plans other people have about making terrains.

[JasonR1]

I would have rather them create a rules system that did not have those maps, but instead could be played on a table-top like other minis game and I am sure the that rather clean combat system they are using, could be readily adjusted to this end. They then could have saved money on printing those maps and actually mounted three guys per stand, and expanded the consumer base who wanted pre-paineted minis for their other WWII systems!

Heck, then they could have sold all sorts of additional terrain accessories as well or at the very least it could have lead to some licensing opportunities with companies who already make that stuff.

-Jason

[Sean-Khan]

I would also have preferred small squads... But I think I can live with this. At least machinegun has two men :)

Do you mean game with measuring distances, Jason? Personally squares/hexes is the thing that has made me to like these games, they make playing easy...

[SeattleGamer]

Sean - I've been thinking about this as well. Unfortunately the only company I know of that makes hex playing mats (MondayKnight) only make them up to 2" hexes. They hae 4'x6' and 3'x3' versions, in green, desert and red "mars" colors (these are excellent thick felt mats). But no 4" hexes.

Perhaps there is someone out that who makes playing mats with larger hexes?

As for terrain, yes, you could go with 1/144 (10mm) instead of the 1/107 (15mm) scale, but they might look rather odd in comparison (houses will look like sheds next to tanks). Personally, I'd rather stick with 15mm scale, and provide my own 3d trees and hills and rivers (and whatever other terrain is shown). Of course, that's really just a step away from rolling out an UN-Hexed green mat, and convert movement and ranges to inches (every hex being worth 2"), and playing it like a true tabletop game. :)

[Sean-Khan]

I've decided to create my terrains totally by myself - I'll post something about it when I get something ready and know for sure what works. Btw - is there elsewhere than here self-adhesive plastic that is used to make plastic cover for softcover books? My plan of making terrains includes such...

The scale is a real pain, but I really can't see the models made in 1/107 -scale... If the buildings are just a little smaller than they should be they hint about ranges being relative. 25% isn't huge amount, the tanks will look big but maybe it's just intimidation effect of such a horrible thing ;) Too bad I can't get my hands on one soon, what would help evaluating.

[vogless]

I started making my own stuff when I first hear of these. Figured I better spend the money now before the minis hit. I'm not going to use the hexes. I'm going the more traditional route with a tape measure. To be honest, I'm not sure which rule set I want to use yet. If I really like the advanced rules, I may use them. For now though, I'm leaning towards FOW. I could make the battle mat hexed, I'd just need a template. There's a place called Litko Aerosystems that has some nice templates for not too much. We'll see. I'll post when I get futher down the road.

[Anarch]

If you need to buy some decent priced 15mm wargaming terrain or buildings msg me and I can give you several companies that specialize in this.

[Sean-Khan]

If you need to buy some decent priced 15mm wargaming terrain or buildings msg me and I can give you several companies that specialize in this.
Thanks, Anarch, but the possibility of making great terrains myself was the thing that pushed me towards this game :D

[The_Hound]

I'm thinking about making my own terrain as well. Going modular seems best to me for the sake of variety. My main problem, however, is figuring out how to actualy make the tiles. Precision is the key since they all have to fit together without any gaps or whatnot. Do any of you have any suggestions on how to make hex tiles?

Thanks,
The Hound

[Sean-Khan]

I'm thinking about making my own terrain as well. Going modular seems best to me for the sake of variety. My main problem, however, is figuring out how to actualy make the tiles. Precision is the key since they all have to fit together without any gaps or whatnot. Do any of you have any suggestions on how to make hex tiles?

Thanks,
The Hound
Sure! First, decide the size of the tiles you are going to use. Then, you'll have to draw a hex of that size, or preferably draw it with a computer/find from internet, and print it to the right size. Then, but most of the paper around the hex, and use tape to attach it to cardboard or whatever you're using as the base. Then you can use hobby knife to cut along the lines.

You can then use the template again or use the first hex you cut to draw lines to the next ones (just remember to cut ~1mm smaller hex as the pen markings are larger than the actual hex). And, you might want to keep the original hex as a template to draw the new ones, as if you use new ones as templates they may be a little different, and those differences get worse every time you use newly cut hex as a new template.

[The_Hound]

Thanks for the tip SK! BTW, I found a pretty cool website for anyond looking to print out hex paper. Here's the link. I'll keep you posted on my progress (once I get started, that is!).

later,
The_Hound

http://www.incompetech.com/beta/plainGraphPaper/

[Sean-Khan]

That's interesting, thanks for the link, The_Hound! And I'm waiting eagerly for your achievements, I'll post mine as well when I get something ready. I'm just careful about what to make, as there hasn't been revealed yet much about what kind of terrain terrain affects which way...

On maps we can see roads, water, forests and hills, and roads can pass forest and hills. And, we know units can have cover, and that forest and hills block LoS, but there's still details missing.

What's strange is that we can't see any buildings on the map, and I really want to do some! I guess that a village or town would be handled as forest with road, but I don't know if a separate building would make any difference. I guess not.

[The_Hound]

Yeah, your right about the details on the map. No use jumping the gun and getting stuck with a bunch of stuff you can't use (and have wasted valuable time on to boot!)

Anyhow, who knows, maybe there will be rules that encompass 3-D terrain with the main rules as well?

Later,
The_Hound

[vogless]

Hey, how do you post pics here? Do you need web space and if so, who's got a free service?

[SeattleGamer]

Regarding the maps and the lack of buildings, two points.

First, in a recent post, the game designer made mention of having blank hexes on the back, so people could make their own terrain/scenarios. Perhaps that was the original idea, and perhaps not.

Because the second comment regarding the maps came from the write-up at Origins. The author of that article said the maps had open country on one side, and city buildings on the other.

So I wonder what the real deal is?

[Sean-Khan]

Regarding the maps and the lack of buildings, two points.

First, in a recent post, the game designer made mention of having blank hexes on the back, so people could make their own terrain/scenarios. Perhaps that was the original idea, and perhaps not.

Because the second comment regarding the maps came from the write-up at Origins. The author of that article said the maps had open country on one side, and city buildings on the other.

So I wonder what the real deal is?
That's interesting - I really hope it's true that we've got buildings on the other side! City -terrain would probably be quite remarkable advantage for infantry!

There's been rumour that we'd get full rules this week - where does that come from? Then we could get into terrain making with full ferocity :D

Vogless, I don't think you can actually post photos here, you'll have to upload them somewhere and then, if you wish, link them here. I think you can find free hosting -sites on search engines, I've got my space from my service provider and have had no need for free space.

[SeattleGamer]

Here is some info on the maps gleened from recent articles:

Gamewire article By Rick Thornquist July 1, 2005
“The game comes with four double-sided paper hex maps. The maps show countryside on one side and city, etc, on the other. The scale of the map is 100 meters / hex. The time scale is 1 minute per turn. The maps can be reconfigured in numerous ways for many different types of scenarios.”

Scrye Ad (featuring a photo of an M-18 and a US Infantryman)
“The game is played on 10” x 16” battle mats marked off with 2” hexes… One side of each mat is blank, the other color terrain.”

So obviously, the two sources do not agree. Or do they? Since you get four double-sided maps, perhaps the other sides on some of them include city terrain, and on some it is blank.

[Engineer]

I'm probably going to buy two starters. More maps is always a good thing.

[Weapon]

I would have rather them create a rules system that did not have those maps, but instead could be played on a table-top like other minis game and I am sure the that rather clean combat system they are using, could be readily adjusted to this end. They then could have saved money on printing those maps and actually mounted three guys per stand, and expanded the consumer base who wanted pre-paineted minis for their other WWII systems!

Heck, then they could have sold all sorts of additional terrain accessories as well or at the very least it could have lead to some licensing opportunities with companies who already make that stuff.

-Jason

I prefer the hex based board, as it brings me back to the PanzerBlitz and Titan games of yore. I doubt AH will drop the Hex system, as its cheap to make the plastic coated paper maps, and the rules are much easier to convey into a rulebook for Hex based systems.

[vogless]

Do you think it would be that hard to convert to a non hex system? I'm still not sure which system I want to use for these minis. I'm waiting to see the advanced rules. I still say AH should dust off an old title, and give us a more advanced, optional mini game. That's what's great about these minis. You can release a basic and advanced ruleset for newer to moderatly experienced players, then release an even more detailed system for the gronards while never making anything obsolete.

[Weapon]

Do you think it would be that hard to convert to a non hex system? I'm still not sure which system I want to use for these minis. I'm waiting to see the advanced rules. I still say AH should dust off an old title, and give us a more advanced, optional mini game. That's what's great about these minis. You can release a basic and advanced ruleset for newer to moderatly experienced players, then release an even more detailed system for the gronards while never making anything obsolete.

Why would a Hex game NOT be advanced? It is a logical step for AH Wargames of any type, since they have experience in games like these. I think that Hex systems not only allow for a very advanced, optional game. Allowing for expandable, customizable boards, similar to PanzerBlitz, but with more tangible pieces and simpler to understand rules; I think its a good setup for basic and advanced rules.

[vogless]

Whoa! I didn't mean to imply hex based games can't be advanced. I'm just planning on using 3d terrain and I'd rather not go through the trouble of marking it up with hexes.

[Sean-Khan]

So, the scale is 1:120. That suits me fine, it's only ~15% off from 1:144 -scale, where there's lots of models. Of course the scale is still a lot off from the intended map scale even with 4" hexes, but you can't always win :) Strange, though, that I searched what the relative scale of 15mm figures would be, and I found information telling that's 1:107.

If only I'd have full day available for modelling and I might have something to show, but that probably won't happen for at least a month... On the other hand, minis aren't here either :P And, I still need to wait for some materials to really get into it.

[SeattleGamer]

"Strange, though, that I searched what the relative scale of 15mm figures would be, and I found information telling that's 1:107."

Well, you are correct. Unfortunately, when it comes to "scale" there are two basic ways to measure, and that's enough to throw off precision.

Method #1 - a standard solider is measured from bottom of feet to top of head. The usual assumption is that the "man" is 6' tall. Yes, a tad tall for average, but that's what is used.

Method #2 - a standard soldier is measured from bottom of feet to eye-level. The reason being, soldiers might be wearing all sorts of tall headgear (think Napoleonics) and you might not be able to gague where the top of their head is.

So if company #1 makes a soldier, and company #2 makes a soldier, both in exactly the same pose, and both claiming to be 15mm, the figures will vary slightly in their heights, and yet both companies will be correctly stating their scale. So a 15mm scale mini can start at 1:107 and go up a bit from there. I've heard/read 1:115 is about the upper limit, but 1:120 as an upper limit doesn't surprise me.

And while those differences are slight, in most cases the infantry figure is mounted to an actual base (metal minis or A&AM, makes no difference) and the base thickness adds to teh infantry overall height. A vehicle is typically unbased. So you stand an infantry next to a tank, and he is now "out of scale" - appearing maybe 7' tall or more because of the extra base height.

All of which is to say, don't get too caught up in "scale".

[Vulturedoodle]

According to the Advanced Rules (p.10, left column), the scale is:

Miniatures: 15mm, or 1/120
Map: 1 hex is about 100m, or about 1/2000

Using 4" hexes instead of 2" will reduce the map scale to about 1/1000, still a far cry from the scale of the minis. Hmmmm. I don't really see a way of bringing these into anything approximating equivalence, as long as the figures are 1-to-1 with what they represent.

I think I'll just live with the abstraction. Still, I'll be very interested to see what you come up with and how it works. A bigger map, obviously. I'll be using a larger one but keeping the 2" hexes. I prefer the greater flexibility in setup and maneuver offered by twice the squares for the same surface area. But if your space isn't limited to, say 4' x 6', then you should be able to obtain the same effect.

Keep us informed!

Regards,
Steve F.

[JasonR1]

I prefer the hex based board, as it brings me back to the PanzerBlitz and Titan games of yore. I doubt AH will drop the Hex system, as its cheap to make the plastic coated paper maps, and the rules are much easier to convey into a rulebook for Hex based systems.


I understand your point, but Panzerblitz is a platoon level game that is actually looking to be re-published as "Panzerblitz II" next year by MMP, and I can play that if I really want.

I was looking forward to a minis game in the general "style" of other minis games that are around, but with Avalon Hill's/A&A strength behind it, not just a basic board game with minis.

I will buy the game but I am a bit disapointed so far about some of the decisions. I know a lot of us wanted a basic, fun and fast mins game with prepaineted figures set in WWII. I am not trying to be a "downer" but I guess it seems that the development keeps chipping away at a lot of folk's expectations.

Let's just hope they stick with it and the sytem evolves.

-Jason

[SeattleGamer]

Hey Jason . . . do you remember the scale to PzBlitz? My many copies are all packed away or I'd look it up myself.

PzBlitz worked very well at it's scale. Platoon sized units and all that. I don't remember the scale, but thinking back, units had ranges that seem to be close to A&AM. The difference of course is that this is a squad-level game.

And it's that level which is bothering me. WWII was mostly about companies. Your maneouver units were the platoons, and the platoon had squads/sections. If each unit were a platoon, then having 3 infantry units and 1 artillery in support might be the right ration. But if each infantry is a squad, it's not very realistic at all to assume that a single gun would be assigned to a platoon (of 3 squads) for support. The lowest unit of artillery was the battery. Individual guns were not loaned out for use.

So having what amounts to a platoon if infantry having their own gun feels wrong. I can see around this "problem" by telling myself the slice of the battle I'm fighting is just a piece of a larger fight, and that the full battery is actually streqn out supporting the entire company, and other guns are on other unseen board sections, supporting those troops. But . . . it's a stretch.

Same for a few squads having their own tank or two for support. Tanks were organized into units as well, and it doesn't seem right to think the battalion commander stepped outside his HQ and pointed to a single tank of a platoon of tanks and says "You there . . . head down the road and support Squad One of Charlie Company." If he were committing his platoon he would probably order the entire platoon down the road.

But this is just a game based loosly on historical events and equipment, so it's not a big deal. But if I had a magic wand and could have directed this game's direction, it would have been towards PzBlitz with miniatures / platoon level scale, and not individual tanks and squad level.

[JasonR1]

Seattle,

From what I know, in PanzerBlitz each combat unit counter represents a battery, platoon, or half company size military unit. Now of course that also takes in consideration that the hexes are much larger and the time frame is larger as well. I can’t recall off hand but I think that the time scale is something like 10 minutes per turn and the hex length (from one side to the other) is something like 100 yards.

Now this may seem like a small point, but unit size, hex scale, and time-scale must all jive for a tactical game such as this to make some sense. You are also correct that WWII was mostly about companies and that the maneuver units were the platoons, and the platoon had squads/sections etc…but of course we are talking about squad level action in A&A Minis and games such as ATS and ASL have found that scale can be easily gamed. Again, I was not looking for this system to be like those in detail, but rather something like a fast, easy to play pre-paineted minis game that at least made some sense in the look and feel of the era/scale, that it was represneting.

However, I know you stated that your point was that infantry having their own gun feels wrong and I am not sure the slice of the battle thing with the situation you are talking about here really works; your right it's a stretch at best. I also picked up straightaway your point about having a couple of squads having their own tank or two for support. Those guys in the demo picture at origins looked very alone on that map, and I do not think that scenario will be the exception.

-Jason

[SeattleGamer]

I'm hoping that someone with 20 4-point infantry and bazooka figures and maybe an AT gun (as bait) can take on and handle a guy who fields three tanks. I'd rather this not become a battle between 2-3 tanks per side. While they are cool, in reality tanks tended not to go places without infantry support, because they were actually quite vulnerable.

Here's hoping the playtesting balanced the game, and that a nice combined arms force has more flexibility and thus more chances to overcome their opposition. If three tanks can sit back and blow away 20 infantry with no worries, the game is pointless.

[fenyan]

With the objective hexes in this game it's not just a matter of blowing everyone away with your tanks. Take a look at the M4A1 Sherman (21 points) vs. seven Arisaka Rifle infantry (3 x 7 = 21 points). I think this matchup would be very close.

[Sean-Khan]

I'd say that japanese will win that fight. The tank just doesn't have firepower to destroy enough soldiers when they hide at the hills/forest/whatever, and when everyone at turn 7 rushes to the goal area, the tank begins to get 2xstrength 6 attacks towards it's aft armour of 4 per turn. The tank may have destroyed some 3 units before that, but those 4 will probably crush it.

[SeattleGamer]

"With the objective hexes in this game it's not just a matter of blowing everyone away with your tanks."

Yeah, I hear you, but given the ranges and movement speeds, a game might not LAST 7 turns long, and I'll bet a player wins a game by default if there are no opposing troops left on the board. So the "kill 'em all and ignore the objective" approach might still bring you a victory.

[Stojakovic]

Thanks for the tip SK! BTW, I found a pretty cool website for anyond looking to print out hex paper. Here's the link. I'll keep you posted on my progress (once I get started, that is!).

later,
The_Hound

http://www.incompetech.com/beta/plainGraphPaper/

Thanx man that will help me a lot :D

[The_Hound]

Hi everyone,

I have been experimenting with different ways to make hex terrain and have been coming up against a real wall. There are two problems I have found; one is the fact that is VERY difficult to maintain consistency. It is really hard to make hexes that fit together well. The other problem I have had is that is it tedious to make a lot of hexes. I have tried making single tiles, groups of three and blocks of twelve. None of these approaches have yielded suitable results, only frustration.

The conclusion that I have come to is that I might be better off just making my own hex map and them mounting terrain on hex bases. One problem I have with this approach though is how to make a template for spray painting the hexes on. Does anyone out there have any advice on how to make such a template?

To be honest, I am this close to chucking the whole hex business and following Seattle-Gamer's idea of just converting to a real table to game using inches. Maybe just get some 25mm round bases and mount the models on them and use base to base contact for any interhex interaction that special rules like the tiger class for. I think this would save me a lot of trouble at any rate. If you have any advice, I'd love to hear it.

Thanks,
The_Hound

[Sean-Khan]

I've got loads of work so my terrain -making plans have been sustained temporarily... I've got some cut pieces of cardboard waiting, and I hope I can start making some stuff in a month... Hope fully I find lots of time then. I'm going to make 3-5 large round pieces that are ~5 hexes wide, plus lots of smaller (7 hexes, 3 hexes, single, maybe 2 hexes for roads/rivers)

About hexes - I have a solution of my own for this. I'm not yet sure how well it will work, maybe I should do some experimenting... Anyway, I've thought of getting/making small pieces that... Uh, how to explain this - they look like this from the top:

\_
/

I can glue them on places where 3 hexes should meet, so you could see how the hexes go. It would look like





\_ _/ \_
/ \ /


_/ \_ _/
\ / \


\_ _/ \_
/ \ /

I hope that the shapes don't get distorted when I post this... And I hope this helps, too! :)


Edit: It was distorted, but I found a way to display it.

[fenyan]

Looks interesting.

Just saw this link over at TMP, a company is offer PDFs of Normandy-style WWII buildings. They have one freebie you can download after registering: www.microtactix.com

These would probably only work if you're going with hexes bigger than the 2" currently slated for AAM.

[SeattleGamer]

I believe the company name is Litko, and they make bases in various sizes for figures, laser cut from thin wood. They will also custom make anything you want, and out on theminiaturespage recently someone was asking about having hexes made, and a bit later they posted they had contacted Litko, and got a thumbs up for the idea. I think that person was looking for 4" hexes, and the price quoted was something like $10 for 10 hexes, but my memory can be way off on those details.

Anyway, if you want hex bases for terrain projects, you might want to consider them.

[SeattleGamer]

I just purchased the Microtactix WWII paper buildings late last night. I haven't had a chance to make one yet as a sample, but a quick glance at some of the building templates leads me to believe they would be unsuitable for the 2" hexes.

[Autarch]

I just purchased the Microtactix WWII paper buildings late last night. I haven't had a chance to make one yet as a sample, but a quick glance at some of the building templates leads me to believe they would be unsuitable for the 2" hexes.

Hey SG,

Were you able to do your mats tests this weekend?

I was looking at felt cloth at the local Maul-Mart yesterday and it seems like it would drape well over books, rolled up towels whathaveyou to make terrain effects. It would probably work great if I were battling in Ireland (Kelly Green), on Mars (Dark Brown) or some cartoon desert (Canary Yellow).
The ones you have looked a lot better!

[SeattleGamer]

Doh! Forgot all about the test. Will do so tomorrow and get back to you. As stated, I suspect they will not drape very well over anything but small items. The felt is very thick, and it's been sprayed with another color, and that adds to the stiffness.

[RollD6]

I plan on experimenting with the plastic hexes found in Heroscape for quick 3D terrain. What it lacks in esthetics, it should more than make up for in ease of setup, transportability and variety.

Currently, terrain types include rock, open ground, sand and water. They have ruins in the base set too. New expansions will have bridges, roads and trees, though the later can be modeled now with hobby trees.

Looking forward to getting my hands on this game next week at GenCon!

TTFN,

John

[Aries]

I downloaded the free sample and built it up yesterday. They look very nice. I especially like the building ruins one as you could place units inside the building.

They are over 2" square but I plan to rescale the size before printing them out by ~80-90% so they would fit into the 2" hex without affecting the scale look too much.

[Autarch]

I plan on experimenting with the plastic hexes found in Heroscape for quick 3D terrain. What it lacks in esthetics, it should more than make up for in ease of setup, transportability and variety.

Currently, terrain types include rock, open ground, sand and water. They have ruins in the base set too. New expansions will have bridges, roads and trees, though the later can be modeled now with hobby trees.

Looking forward to getting my hands on this game next week at GenCon!

TTFN,

John

Those are two inch hexes? I looked at that the other day but it was $40 bucks at a BBR. I thought it was interesting how you could create cave type terrain. Too bad you can't just order the terrain tiles as replacement parts.

I think this game should have used hex maps with grassy summer terrain on one side and winter terrain on the other and used hex tiles with terrain on them like in Battlecry. The reverse side would have the same terrain but a winter version.

[RollD6]

Those are two inch hexes? I looked at that the other day but it was $40 bucks at a BBR. I thought it was interesting how you could create cave type terrain. Too bad you can't just order the terrain tiles as replacement parts.


There are those that sell just terrain from Heroscape on Ebay, however it is quite expensive. I recommend waiting for a 2 for 1 sale that Toys R Us had last year and pick up two main sets. The game is quite fun, simple, yet tactics for older players still apply. It is also a great way to get kids involved in gaming with very streamlined rules for the under 7 crowd.

I have also use the Heroscape terrain for hex based flying games too.

TTFN,

John

[dcook]

I'm glad to see that there are others out there who feel the same way I do about the hex based nature of the game.

I am definitely guilty of of overhyping this to myself over the past few months, and perhaps it was inevitable that I would be a little disappointed.

What I was hoping for from A&A minis was a sort of Flames of War on the cheap with simplified rules. Like many people, I don't have the time to paint a whole raft of minis, yet I love a proper table top minitures game that allows one to make terrain and play to a semi-accurate scale.

The whole fold out paper hex map thing is a major bummer as far as I'm concerned. I haven't been able to really appreciate other games that play this way, such as D&D minis - it seems to oversimplify it somehow, or take way from the realism....This game is even worse, as these maps make the scale now a complete abstraction. I want to fight it out in the streets, building to building!

What's frustrating is that a decent precedent exists with the MechWarrior rules. I play MechWarrior just because I like the playability of it - I have no interest in sci-fi, and was overjoyed at the thought of a similar WWII game - alas, it wasn't to be...

Clearly a lot of people are pleased with the way this looks, and this isn't meant to criticize anyone's taste. I have no issue whatsoever creating a set of house rules to suit my taste, rules that allow me and my friends to get out the measuring tapes and the model railroad buidlings. The only trouble with house rules is they are bound to the obscurity of my house! One won't be able to show up at a games shop and play this way with others without a lengthy rules discussion beforehand.

I hope that decent set of rules emerges from discussion on these forums, if Avalon Hill wouldn't be so kind to create a set themselves! There is so much potential here. The way it is now, I just feel that something that could be so great, just isn't.

But of course, I still spends piles of money on this game anyhow....

[Stojakovic]

Well I started work on some 3-D terrain such as hills and would eventually like to do some buildings. By the way I saw some great moldings for houses from the pictures at GenCon if any one could give me a site where you can buy moldings for buildings I would appreciate it. But my main question is this. I would like to make my own battle field some time before the year ends and I want to make a realistic looking river. I saw a procedure on how to make one off my uncles model Train magizine but he threw it away and I searched on google for it and could not find it. Can some one lead me to a site for directions on how to make a realistic looking river.

Thanx

[Sean-Khan]

Terragenesis is an excellent place for modellers. Here's some articles about making water: http://www.terragenesis.co.uk/rivers/rivers.html

[Stojakovic]

Hey thanx a ton this will help me save a lot of money I found a place that sells strips of rivers 8 inches of a river cost like 12 bucks

[Stojakovic]

So... who here is going to go all out and make a big huge battle field with terrain and all that other good stuff for A&A M if they do not have one already? I don't really have the time since school will be starting up again and I injoy having a job but hopefully I can get a gameing group to help pitch in on saturday mornings to help build one.

[SeattleGamer]

I don't know if "all out" and "huge" would be terms I'd use, but I do plan to play this on a tabletop with terrain in addition to giving the maps a shot. My minis gaming till now has been tabletop with no squares or hexes of any kind. Roll out a large flet mat, toss on some hills and trees and buildings, and go.

I am interested though is using hexes. Discovered a firm (Kalistra) that makes nice sized plastic hexes (4") you can use as a base. They have a lip underneath, and you can use clips to hold them together. The hexes are not cheap, but look very cool when used to make terrain and then hooked together to make a terrain table. The hexes are formed 6 to a single piece, so it's not like there are individual hexes to deal with. Check 'em out.

http://www.kallistra.co.uk/

Then select Hexon - Hex Terrain to see a nice picture of a 4x6 table of a WWII amphib assault using these hexes as a basis for terrain. Not cheap, but it sure looks nice!

[Autarch]

.

http://www.kallistra.co.uk/

Then select Hexon - Hex Terrain to see a nice picture of a 4x6 table of a WWII amphib assault using these hexes as a basis for terrain. Not cheap, but it sure looks nice!

That's cool. Are those Memoir '44 units? I like those buildings, too.

[Stojakovic]

WOW those are great I think I will use those... I can't get them now... Maybe I will order some soon with my next pay check... The hex size does not effect the game in any way right... Thanks

[Stojakovic]

I could not find any of the buildings... where are they?

[Autarch]

I don't know. I didn't see any listed on the site. Click on the more info link above the picture to show another set up with buildings.

[Stojakovic]

Man I can not find a price at all for those black hexi... the ones that come in a group that can make a board that is 3' x 4' I just want the blank hexi so I can make my own battle field. So if any one can help me I would love it.

[SeattleGamer]

There are lots of photos on their site, showing all sorts of uses for the hexes. They sell basic flat hexes, that you can flock yourself, or use to build up your own mountains and roads and rivers and all that. They also make pre-flocked hexes, and they also sell hexes that are pre-molded to make those other terrain features.

Because this is a firm in the UK, it's especially expensive to get here. You have to hunt around a bit on their site (select Hexon-Hex Terrain, then scroll down a bit and select the online catalog link, and then scroll down and select Zone 3 Ordering Information), but you will eventually discover the prices.

A box of 21 hex sets (a set being 6 hexes molded togeether) can form a 3x4' area, and they sell for 45 pounds and cost another 30 pounds to ship here. But, two boxes of hexes cost 40 pounds to ship, and three boxes OR 4 boxes of hexes cost 45 pounds to ship. So you definately spread that shipping cost around a bit and take out some of the sting by buying in bulk. Those are the prices for basic plastic hexes (in either black or brown plastic).

The cost for pre-flocked hexes (either green, or a green and brown mix which looks the best in my opinion) will run you 70 pounds per box of hexes, plus the same shipping as noted above, so again, you can reduce the price per box shipping by buying in bulk.

But like I said, it's expensive. Two boxes pre-flocked, to cover a 4x6 table, would run you about 180 pounds . . . YIKERS!!! That's $325 or so greenbacks. Slowly, over time, I think it would be way cool to have modular terrain like this. They have roads and rivers and hills and slopes and trenches, and probably more stuff in the works. But just having enough basic flat flocked hexes to make a standard table is not a cheap prospect.

My $50 felt mat is looking pretty good right now!

[Stojakovic]

OUCH!!! *As I back up slowly* I will make up my own hex board out of plywood or cheap pine. But I will keep the same measurments the 4 in. ( 100 mm ) I will most likely group the hexi as well but in a row of 5 or 6. I will need to figure out how to keep the groups of hexi together I will most likely use 1/5 in. wooden dowels and where I can rearrange pieces in any way. I also have some of that left over green pool table material that I can use for the bottom of the board so I do not scratch tabbles with the bottom of the hexi.

[Sean-Khan]

I don't know if "all out" and "huge" would be terms I'd use, but I do plan to play this on a tabletop with terrain in addition to giving the maps a shot. My minis gaming till now has been tabletop with no squares or hexes of any kind. Roll out a large flet mat, toss on some hills and trees and buildings, and go.

I am interested though is using hexes. Discovered a firm (Kalistra) that makes nice sized plastic hexes (4") you can use as a base. They have a lip underneath, and you can use clips to hold them together. The hexes are not cheap, but look very cool when used to make terrain and then hooked together to make a terrain table. The hexes are formed 6 to a single piece, so it's not like there are individual hexes to deal with. Check 'em out.

http://www.kallistra.co.uk/

Then select Hexon - Hex Terrain to see a nice picture of a 4x6 table of a WWII amphib assault using these hexes as a basis for terrain. Not cheap, but it sure looks nice!
Wow, cool link, thanks! I hadn't seen that before. Good inspiration, those hills especially look cool, examples I just wanted to find :D Now I just need some time to make something... It's good to have work but I could use some freetime, too :mad:

Hexes I've started to make are a bit smaller, 3.5", so they are very close. This weekend I should be able to fetch some material I've been needing for my terrains...