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View Full Version : Timer and Starting Board - problem ideas?


StormKnight
07-25-2005, 10:31 AM
I played the new Robo-Rally last night.
There was a lot I liked compared to the old version. The player boards were ncie for organizing things, and I think they were very helpful for the new players. The addition of a Power-Down token was very handy. I like how the new robots had clear arrows on them (not a big deal for me, since I painted the old robots and put a big yellow triangle on the front of each robot's base, but handy for people who don't want to do that!) I love the new flags. I'm a little dissapointed with board quality, but that's not a big deal.

There are two things about the new design that I'm just not happy with though. I thought I would see what other people's opinions are.

The first was the starting board. Now, I never liked virtual, but at least it provided a level playing field at the start of the game. With multiple positions on the starting board, its almost certain they will be unbalanced. This was definetly the case in the game we played. (It was an early beginner scenario using just the Exchange board). From the set up, it was clear that position 2 would have a huge advantage. It gave a clear shot across the boards to the flag, with a straight run onto a conveyor belt going in the right direction.

Now, Robo-Rally has a lot of uncertainty in it, and the luck of the cards can throw anything into chaos, but it doesn't get much easier than a straight shot with conveyors to help. Get lots of moves and your set. Get lots of turns, and pretty much the worst that happens is that you lose a little time spinning in place.

Sure enough, the robot from position 2 had reached flag one before some robots even made it off the starting board. She had won the game with only one other robot making it to flag 1.

This just seems like it will always be a problem with this game - some positions will be so much better or worse that it will drastically effect the outcome of the game.

The second problem was with the sand timer. While I've often contemplated how Robo-Rally might be better with a time limit, I've usually dismissed that as a bad idea. It sure seems to be here.
The first problem is that it actually seems to make the game longer. In old style Robo-Rally, players can start planning as soon as they get their cards. This tends to reduce the total amount of time it takes from dealing the cards to being programmed, especially if the dealer is one of the more skilled players. (A clever group could even have the most experienced player deal out the cards, and try to put the new or slower players on her left (receiving cards first) and the experienced or faster players on her right (receiving cards last))
With a timer, we needed to enforce that players could not look at their hands until all the hands were dealt, and it seemed to have the overall effect of dragging the game down.

It also seems to cause a problem in that, except for the slow player, you usually need more time when you are in a really bad spot. So the timer rewards a player who has a nice easy move, and hurts players who are already in a bad position.
Finally, if there is one slower player, that player is likely to keep getting cut short on moves, which will probably frustrate that player a lot. Its possible this will persuade the player to play faster, but it seems equally likely this will just persuade them to play something else. While weeding out some players might not be a bad thing, it just doesn't seem like a good trend overall.

Anyone else have thoughts or opinions on these?

oculona
07-25-2005, 11:01 AM
I would recommend NOT playing with the timer when you’re teaching new players. They will have many questions about timing issues and be consulting the element charts often, even after the first few games.

We played the old version and expansions with a two-minute timer and it worked out very well. One minute was too fast if one had a difficult path to calculate, especially adding the expansion boards and elements. The timer was needed to keep some from taking crazy amounts of time.

holywolfman
07-25-2005, 12:51 PM
...I have yet to try it out hopefully soon but here are some ideas:

As for starting positions, I will prob just have it randomly with dice rolling (highest 1, and second highest, 2, and so on)

As for starting positions, if #2 is ALWAYS coming out ahead, you can do one of (3) things

1) Hope to get better "option cards" then them
2) Gang up on that person (my fav)
3) simpily just don't use that starting spot! (there are 7 other spots to use...how often are you are going to be playing an 8 player game?)- :D

...this game seems neat, I hope to try it our soon and give my spin on it!

StormKnight
07-25-2005, 02:02 PM
...I have yet to try it out hopefully soon but here are some ideas:

As for starting positions, I will prob just have it randomly with dice rolling (highest 1, and second highest, 2, and so on)

As for starting positions, if #2 is ALWAYS coming out ahead, you can do one of (3) things

1) Hope to get better "option cards" then them
2) Gang up on that person (my fav)
3) simpily just don't use that starting spot! (there are 7 other spots to use...how often are you are going to be playing an 8 player game?)- :D

...this game seems neat, I hope to try it our soon and give my spin on it!

We did do things randomly. I considered suggesting letting a new player have position 2, but we had 4 new players. Also, the only two of us that thought the starting board would be a problem were not the ones who owned the copy, so it seemed a bit "pushy" to be suggesting that. Random will just means its a random person who gets the huge edge!

As to your suggestions...
1) Pure luck. No reason you should get better options than them. In this game actually one option card was drawn all game, and that was on the turn right before the game ended.

2) Its impossible to gang up on someone you can't catch. (Not to mention any attempt to "gang up" in Robo-Rally is most likely to cause mass damage to all the robots piling into the fray!)

3) Since the optimal starting spot will vary greatly from set up to set up, this really isn't an easy to use solution. And its likely that several of the spots will either be at an advantage or a disadvantage. And yup, I usually do play 8 player if I can help it. (This game we had only had 7 as two of the younger players decided to share a robot).

puggimer
07-25-2005, 02:30 PM
Were you playing one of the suggested tracks? This actually sounds like a very simple problem to solve by simply moving the flag. I would say that the first flag should always be placed such that no robot has a straight shot at it, either by having conveyers moving away from it or walls. While all starting positions may not be completely equal, if you place the first flag right then no one has any advantage over anyone else.

StormKnight
07-25-2005, 03:44 PM
Were you playing one of the suggested tracks? This actually sounds like a very simple problem to solve by simply moving the flag. I would say that the first flag should always be placed such that no robot has a straight shot at it, either by having conveyers moving away from it or walls. While all starting positions may not be completely equal, if you place the first flag right then no one has any advantage over anyone else.

We were playing a suggested track.
It wasn't a STRAIGHT shot, but it was basically straight forward, onto a conveyorbelt flowing the correct direction, turn on the conveyor belt and hop off onto the flag.

I think it will be nearly impossible to place boards that favor all starting positions equally. Having a converyor belt flowing the direction you want to go is very useful. Having a pit right in front of you is a pain, as is having a converyor belt flowing the wrong way. No matter where you put the flags, SOMEONE is going to have a much easier or harder run for it. Though the sheer straight-forwardness of this board may make it particularly bad.

holywolfman
07-25-2005, 04:53 PM
...then don't play the game! (that would solve the problem)-lol :rolleyes:

(C'mon, there is gotto be a way!)- I have been playing games over 20 years....there is no game that I can't "tweak" to make more balance!)

I am sorry, I NEVER played this game and I am hoping for a game this Friday! If I run into that problem, I will better let you know! I am sure the guys (and gals) at AH/Hasbro had playtested many different situations and the game has been out for sometime now...so don't fret! Enjoy the game and have fun with it! If you don't like something in the game or think there might be an issue....CHANGE IT! Like another player suggested, change the flag location. There is plenty of ways to "program" a cat....oh wait, how does that saying go...?!- :p

StormKnight
07-25-2005, 05:14 PM
(C'mon, there is gotto be a way!)- I have been playing games over 20 years....there is no game that I can't "tweak" to make more balance!)
Sure there is a way...go back to using the "virtual" rules from the original version. :D

mk31bolo
07-25-2005, 07:22 PM
Since robot two's move is predictable, he becomes an easy target for robot one. Two may get to the flag first, but he's probably going to have damage. If two doesn't get enough move cards to move five squares, then there's plenty of opportunity for the other robots to interfere.

If you have alot of players, then two's run to the second flag will most likely bring him into contact with robots six and eight. Two may well find himself back at the first flag minus a life token, especially if robot one was able to get in a few potshots.

You could just put the docking bay on another side of the exchange board (though I wouldn't reccomend it), or, as suggested above, move the flags. (Try moving flag one three squares to the left.) The suggested tracks are just that: SUGGESTED. RoboRally has always promoted the "make your own track" approach.

Or, you can simply not use that particular track.

Oridyne
07-26-2005, 03:53 AM
We are still playing with the original game and one house rule we used was to have each robot start out with an option card. We also used a rule mod (I do not recall where we found it) where the robots got another option card at each flag.

This makes for an interesting and slightly more dangerous game :)

StormKnight
07-26-2005, 06:47 AM
Since robot two's move is predictable, he becomes an easy target for robot one. Two may get to the flag first, but he's probably going to have damage. If two doesn't get enough move cards to move five squares, then there's plenty of opportunity for the other robots to interfere.
Robot two's move being predictable can be bad for robot two - IF only one robot decides to follow the same path down, and can get there before robot one makes it too far. In more than one robot decides to go for the nice conveyor running onto the board (which is potentially a very good move) you will have happen exactly what happened in this game - two robots bash into each other, mess each other up, and wind up doing a heck of a lot more damage to each other than to the bot running for the win from position 2.

If you have alot of players, then two's run to the second flag will most likely bring him into contact with robots six and eight. Two may well find himself back at the first flag minus a life token, especially if robot one was able to get in a few potshots.
Robots are always occasionally running each other; if bot 2 is meeting 6 and 8 and having to deal with them, then bots 6 and 8 are having to deal with each other and robot 2. Robot 2 is still in the best position.

You could just put the docking bay on another side of the exchange board (though I wouldn't reccomend it), or, as suggested above, move the flags. (Try moving flag one three squares to the left.) The suggested tracks are just that: SUGGESTED. RoboRally has always promoted the "make your own track" approach.

Or, you can simply not use that particular track.
As I said, while the specific track and flag setup is noticeable, I really suspect that this will be a problem with EVERY board.