Material Quality

[RoToRa]

Hi,

I can't seem to find a link to the Code of Conduct on these boards, but since any respectable company should accept valid criticism, I expect this won't be deleted. What I however do not expect (but do hope for) is a honest response by a Avalon/Wizards representative, that it's not just marketing blah...

Just like some of you (and as it seems several people in other gaming communities), I am very disappointed by the quality of the material used for the new edition.

I do admit that many of the parts are well done: the tokens, the flags and even the robots (you can hardly allways expect metals ones).

But the flimsy cardboard used for the floor plans and the cards are below anything that one would expect for a game that costs 50 US$/Euro, especially if you compare them to the original edition which costed IIRC $35. And even ten years ago the programming cards were criticized for being bad quality, and instead of getting better - as what you whould expect from a new edition - they got worse.

I don't know about the general gaming situation in the US, but as a German player who plays "German games" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_game) I am used to much higher quality dispite the average price for a game being almost half of that of RoboRally.

I know there isn't much that can be done about it now, but what I'm afraid of, is that since especially the cards and boards are the parts that need to "compatible", there won't be any changes in any possible expansions :-(

RoToRa

[mk31bolo]

$35? It cost me almost $60 to buy the second edition of Robo Rally. I don't remember what the first edition cost me, but it was around the same amount.

So this third edition was about what I expected to get, considering the lower price. ($45)

[Moderator Sinister]

Welcome to the boards. The coc is found at

www.wizards.com/coc

No problems with your post however.


I haven't gotten my copy of RR yet so I can't comment other than to say the old game with all it's quality boards would certainly cost more money than it did 10 years ago.

Thats why games like Twlight Imperium and Descent cost so much because of all the componets.

My advice is to laminate. I do this often with games and it's better than even a quality backing because it's spill proof too.

[holywolfman]

Welcome to the boards. The coc is found at

www.wizards.com/coc

No problems with your post however.


I haven't gotten my copy of RR yet so I can't comment other than to say the old game with all it's quality boards would certainly cost more money than it did 10 years ago.

Thats why games like Twlight Imperium and Descent cost so much because of all the componets.

My advice is to laminate. I do this often with games and it's better than even a quality backing because it's spill proof too.


...you don't have to tell me TWICE!!!- :D I lamanate All my cards and charts before playing any of my cool games! That's how I got my nickname:

"Nick, the Las Vegas Laminater" -lol

[Moderator Sinister]

Wolfman,

I'm glad to hear I'm not the only lunatic! I think it's the BEST investment especially for paper thin game componets. People think I'm crazy for laminating things but then BAM a spill ruins my friends charts and I don't look so crazy anymore.

[iiiHuman]

Does anyone have any suggestions as to the best place to get the boards (and possibly cards) laminated? Would an Art store be able to do it better? How about approximate cost of laminating the boards (and possibly cards)? What about things to keep in mind or possibly ask?


iiiHuman

[BoBoTheBear]

yea, I als think that the quality on the cards and the boards where a bit
cheap... but maybe thats just compared with the old edition I have..

Gonna check around for possibilities to laminate too..

[boylermaker]

I haven't done my research, but if this game is anything like MMA or Nexus Ops, you'll be able to find it for less than us$40, including shipping, if you are in the US. If you're not, I'm sorry.

[oculona]

I haven't gotten my copy of RR yet so I can't comment other than to say the old game with all it's quality boards would certainly cost more money than it did 10 years ago.

Thats why games like Twlight Imperium and Descent cost so much because of all the componets.


There is No excuse to use less quality stock.
Doom the Board game has a lot of quality cardstock and miniatures, yet you can get it around $35. Which is about the same price as Robo Rally. That is why Fantasy Flight games has become one of my favorites, because they do take quality seriously.

Avalon Hill has been taking a lot of criticism about its poorer quality and would do well to listen to Us the consumers.

[iiiHuman]

Avalon Hill has been taking a lot of criticism about its poorer quality and would do well to listen to Us the consumers.
I'm just finding that I am not that happy with their quality when it comes to their "development" of the game and the wording they use in the rulebook and on Option cards. They tried to over-simplify things this time around in what seems to be an attempt to try and reach a larger audiance rather than concentrating more on all of the interactions in the game. By over-simplifying the game, they actually made it more complicated, accidentally changed the rules in areas that I am sure were not meant to be changed, and caused new conflicts in the rules.


iiiHuman

[hylentor]

Personally, even though I *did* get my copy for cheaper than the msrp (employee discount - I can only see you getting those prices online otherwise) even if I didn't work in a game store, I'd still buy it locally so I can continue to do so in the future.

/soapbox

That being said, I'd take a bit more of a price hike to get better quality boards.

[puggimer]

I'll agree there - and I paid full retail. At times it is a bit rough when you can see the discounts on line, but I strongly believe in supporting my local store.

[boylermaker]

I would support my local store, except they don't need it at all, especially after the Wizards of the Coast store closed down. They make enough of Magic, D&D, etc, that I don't feel guilty taking that 20% discount.

[Moderator Sinister]

I'll agree there - and I paid full retail. At times it is a bit rough when you can see the discounts on line, but I strongly believe in supporting my local store.

Store service in my area sucks. I almost exlusively buy online. In fact I was in a store the other day where a customer complained that he could get it cheaper online and instead of working with the guy the owner just grumbled on about the bills he has to pay. I don't doubt the bills but if someone in my store complained like that I'd give him at least a 5% discount and tell em the good news is that they don't have to wait like they would online. Instead this guy turns down a sale and let's the guy leave. Don't get me wrong the costumer isn't always right but would it kill brick stores to run an occasional offer or large buy discount. There's a store an hour and a half from indy that sells everything 20% off yet not one store in Indy will run a sale UNLESS its for damaged or crappy goods.

[hylentor]

I would support my local store, except they don't need it at all

Eh, not necessarily. Games have been down nationwide since the beginning of the year. The only things doing very well in my store are D&D products, Games Workshop, and WizKids. Magic is doing ok, as is L5R, but a lot of the other stuff is just sitting. If your local store is well established, they might still be doing well, but I wouldn't count on it.

Store service in my area sucks. ... someone in my store complained like that I'd give him at least a 5% discount and tell em the good news is that they don't have to wait like they would online.

Poor service is about the only thing that would make me go online outside of the occasional huge purchase. There's another store within close driving distance that's been slowly going under due to issues with the management.

We've also started offering 10% if someone complains about the net being cheaper, but we can absorb it better as a general hobby store (models, R/C, Comics, etc) than a straight game store (I specifically run the game section). For awhile we wouldn't, since there's a LOT of stuff we're cheaper than retail on, it depends on the item and who we got it from.

[puggimer]

A store I used to go to (about a half hour away) has a discount card - 10 stamps (one stamp per $20 spent) would get you $30 off anything. I liked that - because it gave the discount to loyal customers. I wish my local store would start it (but as they have only been in business less than a year I'll wait and hope).

[newpaintbrush]

re: brick store discounts

I'm not a brick store owner, but I know the deal. So here it is.

Lots of people ask you for discounts. However, if you give someone a discount, first you have to deal with everyone else wanting a discount. If you give a discount ONE time, no problem. But once people hear about it, they want discounts too.

So if you give the discounts to everyone, that hurts your bottom line. And if you don't give the discounts, you get accused of favoritism.

And really, why should you give a discount? If someone wants to buy on internet, they have to worry about getting ripped off, getting their credit card information stolen, have to worry about the package being damaged in shipping, have to worry about getting the wrong package, and so on and so forth.

-----

Now, I order stuff online. But that's generally at a 20-60% discount, saving around $50-$250 even after shipping and insurance. There, the money saved well makes up for the risk.

But sometimes you have dummies walking into brick and mortar stores asking for 40% off. The storeowner has to pay for electricity, rent, blah blah blah, and it really doesn't pay to give 40% off at all - ESPECIALLY when other customers hear about it. Then either the storeowner has to give 30-40% off of EVERYTHING, or gets accused of favoritism and poor business practices and all that.

It's MUCH simpler just to say "I'm very sorry, but I'm not going to match that. If you have a cheaper price online, please buy it there." If the guy doesn't want it from the store, that's fine. If the guy wants the product that day, wants to go home with it and open it up, the guy might purchase the item anyways.

-----

For the case you gave, a guy was arguing - well, that guy was dumb, I have to say. There is almost no way a store owner in his right mind would agree to give a special discount in front of other customers, for the reason just given. The customer should have known that. I can see a storeowner giving 5% away if the guy was polite. But someone that comes along saying "I SHOULD get 5% off, your prices are too high", is someone that's argumentative and it is NOT good to just give in. Next time (and there WILL be a next time), the person will push even HARDER, and be MORE insulting.

Now, if someone says "Do you think you could give me a price break?" and is nice and reasonable about it - maybe. And yeah, it wouldn't hurt to mention cheaper internet prices in passing. But REQUESTING and DEMANDING are pretty different things.

So I can understand why the chap didn't get a discount.

[Y2UAsk]

First, thanks for all the clarifications you've been posting elsewhere, 3-eye.

On Quality --

The Program and Option cards are the same weight as standard, non-linen playing cards.

The reference cards and program registers are lightweight, but they aren't subject to much wear and tear during a game. They just sit on the table.

The counters are heavy duty and should last forever, even with rough handling.

The game boards are heavy board stock. They don't have wrapped edges, because they're printed on both sides. Other than that, it's hard to see what you could do to them in the normal course of playing the game that would damage them.

Finally, when you're dealing with cardstock and boardstock, there's more to durability than thickness. There's also density and coating. The OB cards in A&A D-Day, for example, are thicker than the reference cards in RR, but they're also less dense and coated on only one side, not two, which makes them more susceptible to warping and general disintegration when exposed to moisture/humidity. The boards in RR may not have that satisfyingly thick, weighty feel, but they are dense, high-quality boardstock. (I don't bring this up to say one is better than the other but merely to point out an example of a qualitative difference.)

Which is a long-winded way of stating that I disagree with those who feel they're not getting $40 worth of quality in RR's components. Physically, I think it's top-notch.

Steve

(These are only my opinions. Although I produce websites for both companies, I am neither an employee of WotC or Hasbro nor an official spokesman for them.)

[boylermaker]

I agree that thicker doesn't equal better. My (thick) tokens for games like Betrayal and Kingmaker started falling apart very quickly, but the new, thin cardstock has resisted this. It might be less "satisfying," but at least it is less satisfying for longer.

[Moderator Kayn]

For Laminating that you dont do yourself I'd suggest checking the prices at a Teacher supply store. I used to get my handmade games and cards and bulletin board things laminated there, they usually have a big machine. For small things, you can buy sheets at your local discount store and do it yourself, but I always liked the store lamination the best.
Mod Kayn

[Chuckimus]

I've long been using these boards as a reference but I've never chimed in on a topic before... so please take my comments for what they are, comments.

I've purchased four Avalon games in the past 5 months or so from an online retailer. I won't mention the name... so mods don't worry. I started with Risk 2210, then Betrayal, then Swords and Skulls and finally RoboRally. In all cases I've never paid more than $35 with FREE shipping. The $35 dollar one was RR. I'm not even ordering dozens of copies at a time, just one.. and I can't wait for Vegas Showdown to come out to give it a try.

After I first bought 2210 (yes, I'm a late comer... I know) I went to my local shop to check on Monsters Menace and they wanted $47 plus tax. They didn't even have it in stock though they had a floor display that was set up. Why would I pay $50+ after taxes when I'm looking at a copy now for $31.50 with free shipping and no taxes?

Anyway, back to the original topic of this thread... production quality.

Yesterday I went to Kinko's to see how much lamination of JUST the player sheets for RR would cost and the best they could offer was $20. That's more than half of what I paid for the GAME so I told them thanks but no thanks.

I think the sheets will hold up as shipped, but I'm ****.

Great game!