Caspian Sub Policy Paper #07: Workers control the means of production.

[AequorTigris]

Caspian Sub has released Policy Paper #07. It is an analysis of industrial complexes and transports.

Read it there: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/Caspian_Sub/files/

Discuss it here.

[Bushido Blitz]

Nice job on the paper. I agree with the main conclusion that Industrial Complexes and Transports are very close in utility, but with different pros and cons based on attributes other than the maximum gear they can churn onto the land each round.

This topic will be a future Policy Paper because it is a large topic, but suffice it to say that you can create a very flexible strategy with the Bait Shop. You can’t go island hopping as easily, but you can take control of Japan’s home waters, and that should lead to victory.

Quick method: In short, build a battleship in Alaska every round. Here is a sample set of purchases:
R1: IC 3sub = 39IPCs
R2: 1btl 1sub = 32IPCs
R3: 2btl
R4: 1btl 1car
You should be able to attack Z60 with 5btl and other units on R5 (4 you built + your starting btl). That is a great strafing fleet; hit for a round and then pull back to let the battleships heal up. Have ground troops ready to land the next round.

I am skeptical that this strategy leads to victory. It would seem to me that if J1 does Pearl Harbor with force, the strategy is not even tenable. J1 could take Hawaii SZ with 1BB, 1ac, 1des, 2ftr, possibly a sub, and land a 3rd ftr and a bmb in Wake. What's then to protect your R1 build of 3sub? Off of West US you would have a max of 1trn, 3sub, 1des, 1bb. Japan’s win attacking that with 1ac, (1sub), 3ftr, 1des, 1bb, 1bmb is 84-97%, depending on whether the sub survived J1.

Plus, strafing is easily stopped by an 8IPC sub build each turn. Also, Japan sees this coming a mile away. Seems to me that with the gains they are sure to get on the continent, they can match the US’s 38-40 IPC each turn with fleet building of their own.

[AequorTigris]

Hey BB.

Sorry about the slow reply. On rare occassions I do actually have to work :eek:

A few thoughts for context:

1. The paper is primarily about the utility of ICs vs transports. The point about Alaska is that even though Alaska is only a 2IPC territory, an IC built there (the Bait Shop) can still be used effectively.

2. Your assessments of the Japanese actions are correct as they stand, but you could do essentially the same thing to other purchases off the WUS (Western US). And I was throwing out one quick sample. If Japan was poised for a strike, you could build 1car 1sub 1IC instead of 3sub IC and then your defense is stouter. It depends on conditions in the water as to what the actual build is.

3. None of the core Caspian Sub guys goes after Japan anymore. We tried many different methods and found they were all counterable (though Japan got sacked several times before we learned how to counter the US). So we did the Bait Shop for a while along with other builds, and ultimately we walked away from them all. A large part of that is due to the fact that we play domination games; a sneak attack into the Philippines or Kwangtung doesn't accomplish much in total domination, whereas in a tournament game that can give you the win. US fleets are much more useful in a 6 round game.

4. Part of the reason I said the Bait Shop should be its own paper is that there are so many forks that occur before the US decides on its strategy. Here are a few:
- 6inf 2ftr in Buryatia
- A retake force in Novo preventing a US IC
- The IIC (India Industrial Complex)
- Russians propping up the IIC
- A disasterous or excellent Russian R1 (round 1) in Europe
- A large German navy
- Splitting the UK fleet and dice whipping Japan
- Japan ignoring PH
- Japan building 2ICs

That's off the top of my head, more forks apply. Certain combinations of those events lead to the Bait Shop being great, others mean you go island hopping, still others mean you should not even consider KJF.

5. Strafing fleet: if you have 5btl, you are going to sink a lot of gear, and often you won't lose any pieces in the first round of combat since no piece dies until the 6th hit. Then Japan has to build at least a 3rd carrier and some subs to make strafing unprofitable. If you want a strafing fleet, the Bait Shop is good because you're buying the capital ships at a 2-piece limited IC. If you want an island hopping fleet, the Bait Shop is terrible. If you want a defensive fleet that drops a couple of transports of gear into Russia every round, the Bait shop is great. If you just want a well rounded fleet, the Bait Shop is probably sub-optimal.

So it depends a lot on the conditions in the water as to whether or not the Bait Shop is useful.

Tell you what, when we have a draft on the Bait Shop ready to go (it will be a while since it's not planned for this current set of Policy Papers), would you like to do a proofread on it? We could always use another set of eye balls.

Peace

[squirecam]

Since you proclaim KJF a failure, I'd like to know a few things.

1. What was your standard R1 russian moves during a KJF?

2. What did you do during the R1 UK move?

Personally, I love the "it cant be done" guys, since I know very well it can be done. While in theory anything can be countered, a true KJF cannot. You do not "counter" the USA. You face all 3 countries. Japan cannot counter the UK/USA and USSR all at the same time.

What you do with the USSR vs germany is also very important.

Squirecam

[CrazyStraw]

Personally, I love the "it cant be done" guys, since I know very well it can be done. Personally, I love the "I know I can beat them even though I don't know what they are doing" guys.

Ok, Mr. Squirecam, let's see your big brain roll out your KJF Crane Kick. You blithely write: While in theory anything can be countered, a true KJF cannot. Hubris. Sheer hubris.

By my recollection, the Axis won a lot of games at GenCon and nearly everyone played KJF. How did the "uncounterable" strategy fail then? Was it 20+ IPC bids to the Axis? Catastrophic dice? Narcolepsy?

It is FAR easier to criticize a comprehensive plan than to create one. But you claim to have done it in your last post. Let's see it. I am not implying that you are making an empty boast; I am saying it directly: You are making an empty boast.

I eagerly await your reply.

[squirecam]

Crazy,

I gave you this answer personally during the jewel in the crown debate on Harris' forum.

http://harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=250&sid=a9711968e768465c1d8ea5eecb39a797

As to me not knowing what I am talking about, well, I've managed to win a few A&A revised tournaments.

What have you done?

Before you attack me, better get some actual credentials.

Squirecam


P.S. I'd be happy to help you further. But first I have to know what you are buying/doing R1. So why dont you tell me then???????

[CrazyStraw]

Young Squire,

As that debate on LHTR shows, you never laid out a comprehensive plan, you just nitpicked the plan that was laid out. Congratulations! You are now a critic. Next time try building something of your own instead of just sniping at real work.

As for credentials, I've beat players several players that are in the Masters brackets. I ain't afeared of what they've got. They are some good players, but my record is about 6-1 versus guys in the masters, and the one loss was a dice whuppin at GenCon that I'm proud to have my name on.

Any time you want to step up to the cardboard I'll show you the right way to play the game ;)

Don't worry; I won't think less of you when you lose.

p.s. - Seriously, braggadocio aside, a game would be fun. And for real, you keep saying, "you tell me what you do and then I'll tell you what I do." That's my point - you don't know what I do but you still say you can beat it...

[squirecam]

I pointed out many things during that thread. You just refused to read.

Again here I asked a simple question, and you decide to flame.

So you can snipe at me further, in which case I've got better things to do, or we can examine what you do with a KJF that leads you to think its not possible.

As for bragging, I dont need to. My record speaks for itself.

So if you want to have a civil discussion, fine. But answer my simple question.

What do you do R1 with USSR and UK. Moves and purchases please.

Squirecam

[Mighty Airforce]

As for bragging, I dont need to. My record speaks for itself.

Squire,

No one said you were without skills. That doesn't mean your words are sage thou. Surely you aren't saying you can't be beat, are you?

>>While in theory anything can be countered, a true KJF cannot.

That's pretty bold. If it's uncounterable, how does the Axis win any games?

Seriously, I think you have some valid points, but did you get a little over zelous when it came time to put those thoughts into words?

[CrazyStraw]

Squire,
I pointed out many things during that thread. You just refused to read.The record says otherwise. After going through the debate I gave you credit for making me rethink what the US fighters could do. You, on the other hand, never answered basic questions about the moves the UK fleet makes.

If you have such a solid KJF strategy, just lay it out. Say, "It won't work if the Axis do X, Y, and Z, but otherwise it should be fine." Having written a few of these myself, I am well aware of the difficulties of writing up a plan in a game with many forking paths.

Eventually all the stuff the Caspian Sub guys try will make it into Caspian Sub papers. We had slated no fewer than FIVE papers to go through various KJF plans just for the US, so we'll get to it in time. Our current run is more about back-to-basics to get everyone on the same page with rules, complexes, bombing raids, the battle simulators, etc.

In the meantime, we really should find a board...

[squirecam]

Mighty -

Its pure logic. Japan cannot counter a real KJF, with all 3 countries coming at it. Yes, AXis can win those games, but it isnt because of Japan doing anything special but surviving. It is Germany that wins those games, by taking UK/Moscow.

But Japan cannot counter 3 countries. If Japan is beating 3 countries in your games then clearly you are doing something wrong.

As to my skills, I dont need anyone's praise. But when someone blasts me for asking a simple question, I'd like to know what that person has accomplished. My record is out there.

Again, the claim was made that KJF cannot be done. So explain what you do UK1 and USSR 1 and I will tell what you are doing wrong. But this is getting pointless. So if you want me to continue this civilly, please one of you answer the very simple question.

Moves/purchases USSR1 and UK 1

Squirecam

[CrazyStraw]

Squire,

The reason you got the heat from me that you did is because of this line:
Personally, I love the "it cant be done" guys, since I know very well it can be done. If you tell me that statement isn't smug and condescending, then we disagree. Had you simply said, "I think this is wrong because..." then you'd have a different debate on your hands. I'll move to that debate now.

KJF may work to kill Japan, but:
1. Moscow is highly likely to fall
2. It is less likely to win the game than KGF (in my opinion)
3. KJF is better in a time limited game than a time limitless game
4. A German player should be able to dramatically hamper a KJF game

At GenCon, the thing that was radically different from the games the Caspian Sub guys usually play is the lack of a German navy. The current favorite Caspian Sub buy for Germany is 4inf 2tnk 2tra save 2IPCs. We love us some tanks, so if we're saving 2IPCs instead of upgrading an infantry you should be able to figure out why. Against players that aren't as good with tactical numbers we prefer a purchase of 2inf 2tnk 3tra. That is a far meaner set of purchases than it looks at first glance.

But I would point out that you're still not having a fair debate. We have laid out a REAM of info that you can criticize, but you refuse to lay out your own plan. You should be able to set out your KJF from the start or it must not be a formidable strategy.

If you want a civil debate, don't start with sarcastic condescension.

'Nuff said.

[squirecam]

I guess this debate is over then.

You seem to have a strong reluctance to debating the merits of your moves, which can only be done if you actually tell me what they are.

Since you wont, the debate is pointless.

I again note it is YOU that claims "it cannot be done". Actually, all I see are things that "must" occur or how something cannot be done. Well, its likely because your first round moves are wrong. Thats not being smug. Its because its true. I'd be happy to discuss your moves, but you have to tell me what they are.

I dont care about Germany or what you saw at gencon re: a german fleet. Are you finally going to answer my question so we can move forward???

Squirecam

[CrazyStraw]

Er... Let me back up a minute.

First off, let me say I like to play hard when I play. I thought you like to debate that way as well, but it looks like this is taking on a more personal tone than I intend it to. I think you're a swell player. If I didn't, I wouldn't bother with the debate. So, before anything else, Kudos to you. You certainly know plenty about the game.

Second, the problem we keep hitting with, "you tell me X and then I'll tell you what is wrong with it" is that there is a lot of assumption implicit in that. If I say, "I think KJF is not as good as KGF" then you say, "tell me what you're doing and I'll tell you where it is wrong". That seems like a backwards approach to me. If you have a way to do KJF, then you should be able to lay it out. I can lay out MANY ways to attempt it, and none of them seem as good to me or the guys I play with as KGF. One KJF analysis we have includes 5 rounds of purchases for: carrier intensive fleets, battleship fleets, sub fleets, mixed fleets, transport fleets, disposable fleets to kill transports, fleets to capture East Indies and build a complex, fighter intensive fleets, and on, and on. None of them, for us, were as effective as KGF.

So give me the Squirecam version. You pick the conditions, take any actions for the various powers that you think are reasonable.

In the last post I gave you a very important piece of info: the German purchase. You said it doesn't matter and our "first round moves are wrong". Well, give us the right first round moves. You have a blank slate to work with.

Peace

[squirecam]

Crazy,

Yes, it did seem personal. And no, I generally dont debate personally. When Yoper/TJ and I raz each other thats not debate, plus we both know we are joking. You seemed personal.

And I'm not going to lay out my entire KJF strategy.I don't have anything to prove, nor do I have the need to hear -- "hey thats a great strategy squire".

No offense meant, and I'm sorry if it sounds "smug", but I know, not think, or surmise, or hope, or feel, but know, that a KJF can work.

I dont believe you have attempted a KJF as I do it, knowing what I know from your India strategy. But I want to confirm that.

Also, I cannot tell you where you are going wrong, if you dont tell me your moves first. Assume, for a second, that I actually can teach you something. If so, then be my student and answer my question. I like teaching by q/a, helping people to think outside the box, not by giving them "do x y z". Thats a disservice.

As for moscow falling, that is a possibility. However, Japan is worth 30 IPC. Russia (the whole of which Germany wont have, just up to moscow if at all) is only 24. Would you trade 30 IPC for 24? I know I would.

Moscow falling is not really relevant if Japan is also conquered. So perhaps you defend moscow too much or too little, or perhaps you attack Japan too little. But without your first round moves, I cant really help you.

Squirecam

[CrazyStraw]

Ah! Well that explains a few things. I meant to play hard because I thought you were coming out jokingly smug, but I meant no offense.

I appreciate the offer for help, but, like I said, we have at least 5 major varieties of KJF and it takes a long time to lay it all out. You'll see those in the future. Feel free to comment then.

And real debate is certainly good. I thought Bushido raised some good points.

Doubtless we'll be crossing words and dice at some point in the future.

Peace

[Bushido Blitz]

So it depends a lot on the conditions in the water as to whether or not the Bait Shop is useful.

Tell you what, when we have a draft on the Bait Shop ready to go (it will be a while since it's not planned for this current set of Policy Papers), would you like to do a proofread on it? We could always use another set of eye balls.
AequorTigris, in hindsight it seems I probably focused too keenly on disproving the Bait Shop's validity, when in reality it was just an example in support of your minor claim that while ICs on 2IPC territories are not effective for land units, they could indeed be so for sea units. Fair enough. I think my sixth sense kicked in to account for my toned down opening of "I'm skeptical." Must have foreseen the ensuing shots across the "KJF" bow.

As for the proofread offer, sure, since it won't be for a while, what the heck. Thanks.

[AequorTigris]

Re BBlitz - Bueno. We'll holler when we're ready to go. And maybe we'll get some new ideas from the thread you and Squire are putting together.

Thanks

[psychotropic]

From my experience I would have to agree that a KGF strategy offers a higher chance of success than a KJF scenario. This does not imply that a KJF scenario can't work.

The idea of sacrificing Moscow for Tokyo or Berlin is very sound but the manuevering and timing must be well thought out. I would rather be outnumbered 3 to 2 than 2 to 1.

[CrazyStraw]

Hey PsychoT.

I agree with your take that KGF is better but that KJF can work. We won a lot of games with KJF before we switched over, but in the long run we went KGF.

Swapping capitals: you can get into some odd situations depending on who is scooping up Japan's territory. If the UK is just holding India but the US is getting the islands and perhaps the mainland, then you can end up in a situation where Tokyo and Moscow both fall, but London does not have the resources to protect itself. A 2v1 game can become a 1v1 game very quickly.

It takes a really long game for those kind of scenarios to play out. We saw plenty of that in the old AA (mostly because I was in college and would cut class if the game was going well), but I don't have the same kind of feel for those issues in the new AA. If the game is going on 6 hours I'm more likely to surrender than to play to the bitter end. Blasted job...

[squirecam]

None of the core Caspian Sub guys goes after Japan anymore. We tried many different methods and found they were all counterable (though Japan got sacked several times before we learned how to counter the US). So we did the Bait Shop for a while along with other builds, and ultimately we walked away from them all.



Hey PsychoT.

I agree with your take that KGF is better but that KJF can work. We won a lot of games with KJF before we switched over, but in the long run we went KGF.


Interesting.

I saw the first quote and said KJF can work (not better, just said it can work). You blast me. Now you agree with Psycho T.

So if you knew I was right, why did you not admit it up front and why did you waste time arguing. Kinda stupid to me...

Squirecam

[psychotropic]

At the risk of changing the topic. I wonder if there have been any discussions on the issue of keeping US resources on one side of the board vs splitting them. ie. going after both ger and *** as opposed to one or the other.

[CrazyStraw]

Young Squire,

For a person that whines about civil debate, you sure are a prickly agitator.

What is implyed in that post is that it CAN work if the person doesn't know how to counter it. It CAN work with certain bids. So will strategic bombing and rockets. So will 2 Japanese ICs. So does a US airforce-only plan. That doesn't mean they are great plans. I said we won with KJF at first but found ways to counter it. Apparently you A) don't know how to counter it or you wouldn't do it anymore B) You can't tell us how to run it, but you certainly can run your mouth (or fingers in this case) about how badly we must do it, even though you still don't know what we do.

The reason you get blasted and the other guys get respect is that they are respectful themselves. If you really wanted civil debate, you would have asked for a clarification instead of firing up the argument. You like to quibble, but you sure couldn't take it when I started to dish it back.

I'll keep posting on this topic because it's interesting, but I'm not wasting any more pixels on your posts. If you can't play nicely with the kids in the sandbox, and you can't handle when they throw sand back, find somewhere else to play.

Have the last word. I'm sure it will be full of great info.

Have :) A :) Nice :) Day

[CrazyStraw]

Hey PsychoT.

In general, I'm a fan of picking one Axis power and going after it hard. It's pretty rare that I split the US' attention. Heck, I don't like even splitting up the various Allies' attention. My experience has been that if the US does a little Germany and a little Japan, in the end they do a lot of nothing. If you're doing KJF or KGF, do it all the way with all the Allies.

At least that's my thought.

[squirecam]

I always debate respectfully, until the opposing person is uncivil. Which you were. I merely asked for your moves. I certainly wasnt disrespectful to anyone, especially you, as the post was directed to the author, not you, who posted afterwards. It was you who started flaming.

However, even with that, you did not "dish" anything. You wouldn't even answer a simple question to further a civil debate. If you thought you were right, why not simply answer my question?

As for me "not knowing how to counter a KJF", I do know how. You can ask GS/BB. I showed them an option for Origins. Again you just try to trash me saying I dont know what I am doing, rather than engage in any real debate.

But I see "debating" with you is pointless. There too is my last say on this subject.

Squirecam

[Yoper]

Now, now, boys and girls! Settle down!

All of you are making me look sane!;)

And I thought only I could get this torqued up!:)

Craig

[CrazyStraw]

Ah Yoper!

We haven't gotten fired up for a while.

Those were good times. Good times...

We missed you Saturday. V-Disc had to thrash everyone for you ;)

[Yoper]

"Good" is such a subjective term!;)

Ah, Yes!

I have been known to plant my passionate, yet stubborn, foot in my mouth.:)

Craig