KJF Viable?

[Bushido Blitz]

In the context of a heated "non-debate" over the viability of KJF (Kill Japan First, see thread Caspian Sub Policy Paper #7):

Quote from Crazystraw to Squirecam: "I appreciate the offer for help, but, like I said, we have at least 5 major varieties of KJF and it takes a long time to lay it all out. You'll see those in the future. Feel free to comment then."

Who can stand to wait that long? Not this kid. Perhaps I could step in? Who knows, maybe I'll actually match one of your 5 major varieties of KJF.

Squirecam, if you're amenable, I'd appreciate your appraisal of the following R1 and UK1 moves for my mighty KJF. Thanks!

R1
Purchase
3rtl 4inf, save 0
Russia needs to hold on long enough against Germany in time for Japan to fall. This doesn’t mean buy nothing but infantry, however. Russia needs a certain amount of offense so that it threaten a punch into prematurely positioned German front lines that are inadequately protected with infantry. To this end, I think this build gives the best balance of Offense (13), Defense (14) and Units (7) for the money. Compare these ODU numbers (13-14-7) with an aggressive 3inf 3arm build (12-12-6) or an ultra- conservative 8inf build (8-16-8).

Combat
1. vs 3inf 1rtl 1arm (WRu) with 11inf 2rtl 2arm 2ftr
- 2inf 1ftr (Kar)
- 3inf 1arm (Arc)
- 3inf 1rtl 1ftr (Rus)
- 3inf 1rtl 1arm (Cau)
Average result: take with 9inf 2rtl 2arm 2ftr

Non-combat
1aa (Rus) to WRu
2inf (Yak) 2inf (SFE) to Bur
2inf (Eve) to Yak
2inf (Nov) to Sin
2inf (Kaz) to Per
1arm (Rus) to Kaz
1arm (Rus) to Nov
2ftr (Wru) to Sin

Plan: If J1takes Buryatia, R2 can counter with up to 2inf 1arm 2ftr. If J1 takes India, R2 can counter with up to 2inf 1arm 2ftr. If J1 takes China, R2 can counter with up to 2inf 2arm 2ftr. If for some reason in R2 ftrs are not needed for eastern combat, from Sin they can make it to western front and land in Rus.

Place
1inf (Cau)
3rtl 3inf (Rus)

UK1
Purchase
1IC
Expenditure of remaining 15IPCs depends on G1. Could be:
5inf (if G1 bought any trn in SZ5)
1ftr, save 5 (if G1 did not buy any trn in SZ5)

Combat
1ac 1des (SZ35) vs 1trn (SZ59)
1ftr (SZ35) 1sub (SZ40) vs 1sub (SZ45), ftr lands on US ac in SZ52
2inf (Aus) vs 1inf (NGu) via 1trn (SZ40)

Non-Combat
If both ac des survived SZ59 battle, then 1trn (SZ35) to SZ36, otherwise it shuttles 1inf (Tra) to Ind
1inf (Per) to Ind
1inf (Tra) to Per, if it is not shuttled to Ind by trn (see above)
1bmb (UK) to Rus
Depending on G1 tactics, UK may be free to fly 2ftr (UK) to Rus as well

Well, how’d I do, teach? ;)

Grasshopper

[squirecam]

In the context of a heated "non-debate" over the viability of KJF (Kill Japan First, see thread Caspian Sub Policy Paper #7):

Quote from Crazystraw to Squirecam: "I appreciate the offer for help, but, like I said, we have at least 5 major varieties of KJF and it takes a long time to lay it all out. You'll see those in the future. Feel free to comment then."

Who can stand to wait that long? Not this kid. Perhaps I could step in? Who knows, maybe I'll actually match one of your 5 major varieties of KJF.

Squirecam, if you're amenable, I'd appreciate your appraisal of the following R1 and UK1 moves for my mighty KJF. Thanks!

R1
Purchase
3rtl 4inf, save 0


For advanced players, yep. For those just starting out, you could still go 8 Inf and play all defense until you become comfortable with playing a weakened atlantic front. But I think 4/3 has great utility too and thats what I use.


Russia needs to hold on long enough against Germany in time for Japan to fall. This doesn’t mean buy nothing but infantry, however. Russia needs a certain amount of offense so that it threaten a punch into prematurely positioned German front lines that are inadequately protected with infantry. {squire adds - or armor prematurely moved up too} To this end, I think this build gives the best balance of Offense (13), Defense (14) and Units (7) for the money. Compare these ODU numbers (13-14-7) with an aggressive 3inf 3arm build (12-12-6) or an ultra- conservative 8inf build (8-16-8).



Again agree on your theory.



Combat
1. vs 3inf 1rtl 1arm (WRu) with 11inf 2rtl 2arm 2ftr
- 2inf 1ftr (Kar)
- 3inf 1arm (Arc)
- 3inf 1rtl 1ftr (Rus)
- 3inf 1rtl 1arm (Cau)
Average result: take with 9inf 2rtl 2arm 2ftr

Non-combat
1aa (Rus) to WRu
2inf (Yak) 2inf (SFE) to Bur
2inf (Eve) to Yak
2inf (Nov) to Sin
2inf (Kaz) to Per
1arm (Rus) to Kaz
1arm (Rus) to Nov
2ftr (Wru) to Sin

Plan: If J1takes Buryatia, R2 can counter with up to 2inf 1arm 2ftr. If J1 takes India, R2 can counter with up to 2inf 1arm 2ftr. If J1 takes China, R2 can counter with up to 2inf 2arm 2ftr. If for some reason in R2 ftrs are not needed for eastern combat, from Sin they can make it to western front and land in Rus.

Place
1inf (Cau)
3rtl 3inf (Rus)



Interesting on your "2/1/2" strategy. I use a fighter in India, but I think 1 in Sink would work well too. But I see later we deviate on UK, so thats why the fighters go to sink vs India.


UK1
Purchase
1IC
Expenditure of remaining 15IPCs depends on G1. Could be:
5inf (if G1 bought any trn in SZ5)
1ftr, save 5 (if G1 did not buy any trn in SZ5)


See also..
Destroyer save 3 or Destroyer + inf



Combat
1ac 1des (SZ35) vs 1trn (SZ59)
1ftr (SZ35) 1sub (SZ40) vs 1sub (SZ45), ftr lands on US ac in SZ52
2inf (Aus) vs 1inf (NGu) via 1trn (SZ40)

Non-Combat
If both ac des survived SZ59 battle, then 1trn (SZ35) to SZ36, otherwise it shuttles 1inf (Tra) to Ind
1inf (Per) to Ind
1inf (Tra) to Per, if it is not shuttled to Ind by trn (see above)
1bmb (UK) to Rus
Depending on G1 tactics, UK may be free to fly 2ftr (UK) to Rus as well



Here's where we part company. I dont believe in suiciding the UK fleet.

The AC+DD will be killed by Japan, and Japan will usually only incur the BB as a casualty, making the attack penalty free.

I see the benefit of the fighter to the US fleet, but Japan can "over attack" Pearl (by landing a fighter in wake) so your just asking for an extra hit as opposed to stopping PH.

I think the fighter is better server sinking the Japan transport and landing in Bury. Helps your sink strategy too.

UK fleet has so many options left alive. But first basic move is to link with the USA in solomons. Provides extra 10 defense, ability to take islands, makes it difficult for Japan to take out combined uk/usa fleet, provides landing strip for 2 usa fighters.



Well, how’d I do, teach? ;)

Grasshopper

Heh.

A for effort.

Squirecam

[Bushido Blitz]

A for effort.Thanks for the comments. I had not given much thought to a non-suicidal strategy for the Pacific UK fleet. I suppose the importance of killing the Japanese trn can morph into an all out kamikaze on everything standing. Part of it, too, is my brain is currently wired for 5-6 rounds of tournament play. I haven't played a game longer than 4 hours since college.

The AC+DD will be killed by Japan, and Japan will usually only incur the BB as a casualty, making the attack penalty free.Not if the UK trn off India moves 1 SZ east, blocking the Japanese BB off East Indies from attacking the des/ac. I have it in my moves, but only if both ac and des survive the trn battle.

[squirecam]

Prior to Origins I had a 29 round game. Yeesh...

As to the UK transport/UK fleet blocking,

There is the Japan BB too, although that would force a "mini pearl" rather than a heavy attack, or its is still possible to go somewhat heavy if you send the carriers east and land 5 fighters (4 in solomons with carriers, 1 on wake).

This is more reasonable if you have an axis +4 or +5 bid, which if placed in FIC, can attack China, and thus reduce/eliminate the need for fighters in china, which can be used to attack the DD/carrier or ph instead.

Squirecam

[Bushido Blitz]

Hmmm...nice again. See, I've had some bad experience with light Pearl, and I just always figured if I was going to do it, the Japan BB was committed there. And once those neurons are wired...

But wait, if the Japanese sub is killed UK1 and *** BB goes to Kwa-SZ, Japan only has [1bmb 4ftr 1des] vs [1ftr 1ac 1sub] in Pearl. This wins 98%, losing a des and a ftr. Not bad, IF the ftr can indeed land in Sol-SZ. BUT, if there's a UK trn in NGu-SZ and a UK sub in Solomons (if ***-sub missed UK1), then EInd-SZ BB must kill the trn, and 1ftr must be diverted against the sub.
This weakens the Pearl attack even more, to [1bmb 3ftr 1des], although....it still wins 96%, losing only a des and a ftr on average.

I....guess....you've done your homework! ;)
Sorry, I think out loud.

Hmmm...OK. You've convinced me. As long as a bid arm is on the mainland to make an attack on China without air support, a suicidal UK1 is easily handled with light loss by J1. Although, just 'cause the AVERAGE loss of a lighter Pearl is only a des and a ftr... I just hate those 20% odd scenarios that trash your whole game!

[GSH34]

Hey guys, good discussion you are having here. While I haven't tried this in a game yet, I've been kicking around an idea for modifying the R1 KJF strat. Up to this point, my R1 has been very similar to the one you laid out Bushido. I either buy 8 inf, or 4 inf/3 art. The combat and noncombat moves are very similar too. The difference I've been kicking around is placing 4 units in the Causcus at the end of the turn instead of one. Without using the German BB and tranny, they could come after the Caucus with a max of 7 ground units (3 inf, one art, 3 tank). If Germany does do that, or any other attack into the Caucus, no other point on the eastern front will be fortifiable (sp?) enough without dumping some/all of the German airforce into that territory.

My thought here is that the 4 units may prevent an attack on the Caucus. If they do take it, they will have to bring a relatively significant number of units. The remainder of the German units will then be spread out on the Eastern front and in a less than optimal position for defense from the (on average) 9 inf, 2 art, 2 arm, in W. Russia and 2 fighters in R2.

I haven't completely thought out all the numbers for it yet, but I just wanted to throw another idea into the debate. Enjoy.

(BB, I now leave to finally get to my TripleA turns....)

GSH34

[squirecam]

Hmmm...nice again. See, I've had some bad experience with light Pearl, and I just always figured if I was going to do it, the Japan BB was committed there. And once those neurons are wired...


I dont enjoy light pearl. If circumstances force it, then you might have to, but I prefer heavy pearl as well. Though even a very heavy pearl has failed on me. *cough* Origins *cough*

But wait, if the Japanese sub is killed UK1 and *** BB goes to Kwa-SZ, Japan only has [1bmb 4ftr 1des] vs [1ftr 1ac 1sub] in Pearl. This wins 98%, losing a des and a ftr. Not bad, IF the ftr can indeed land in Sol-SZ. BUT, if there's a UK trn in NGu-SZ and a UK sub in Solomons (if ***-sub missed UK1), then EInd-SZ BB must kill the trn, and 1ftr must be diverted against the sub.
This weakens the Pearl attack even more, to [1bmb 3ftr 1des], although....it still wins 96%, losing only a des and a ftr on average.

I....guess....you've done your homework!
Sorry, I think out loud.


I would hope I know something. :) Or perhaps it was just luck.....


Hmmm...OK. You've convinced me. As long as a bid arm is on the mainland to make an attack on China without air support, a suicidal UK1 is easily handled with light loss by J1. Although, just 'cause the AVERAGE loss of a lighter Pearl is only a des and a ftr... I just hate those 20% odd scenarios that trash your whole game!



If you hate that 20%, you'll hate mine too. That UK Fighter should usually kill the japan transport. But, of course, if you miss and that transport hits, its cursing time...

Squirecam

[Yoper]

That first round defeat caught in your throat?;)

<snicker, snicker>
<chuckle, chuckle>

Craig

[squirecam]

Hey guys, good discussion you are having here. While I haven't tried this in a game yet, I've been kicking around an idea for modifying the R1 KJF strat. Up to this point, my R1 has been very similar to the one you laid out Bushido. I either buy 8 inf, or 4 inf/3 art. The combat and noncombat moves are very similar too. The difference I've been kicking around is placing 4 units in the Causcus at the end of the turn instead of one. Without using the German BB and tranny, they could come after the Caucus with a max of 7 ground units (3 inf, one art, 3 tank). If Germany does do that, or any other attack into the Caucus, no other point on the eastern front will be fortifiable (sp?) enough without dumping some/all of the German airforce into that territory.

My thought here is that the 4 units may prevent an attack on the Caucus. If they do take it, they will have to bring a relatively significant number of units. The remainder of the German units will then be spread out on the Eastern front and in a less than optimal position for defense from the (on average) 9 inf, 2 art, 2 arm, in W. Russia and 2 fighters in R2.

I haven't completely thought out all the numbers for it yet, but I just wanted to throw another idea into the debate. Enjoy.

(BB, I now leave to finally get to my TripleA turns....)

GSH34


That has always worried me too, choosing between 1 and 4.

I guess the chance that Germany could strafe Caucus to kill 3 units, or could get lucky and kill 4 for minimal losses, has led me to place just the one guy.

Squirecam

[squirecam]

That first round defeat caught in your throat?;)

<snicker, snicker>
<chuckle, chuckle>

Craig

You know, if it was to YOU, now THAT would bother me. You being far beneath me and all that.

As it was to guys who made the finals, its not a problem.

Squirecam

[Yoper]

Yes, but my losing to the guys who made it to the finals happened in the semis, not in the first round!:)

Craig

[squirecam]

I love your brilliant logic. :)

Squirecam

[Yoper]

I know. I didn't even mention the fact that my guys also won the tourney.

Puts me over the top! :p

Craig :D

[Vladislaw]

Good afternoon,

I have tried several KJF senerios and if the bulk of africa falls to germany in Rd1 Rd2 and three britian will not have the income to fend off Japan. I find that if Russia buys 3inf + 1tank + 1 fighter in Turn 1 they have three fighters to attack the german fleet in the Med. Germany invaribly attacks egypt on Rd1, Russia then attacks that fleet with three fighters killing the transport and many times takes out the battleship leaving Germany with the option of replacing that fleet or losing africa.

[squirecam]

Good afternoon,

I have tried several KJF senerios and if the bulk of africa falls to germany in Rd1 Rd2 and three britian will not have the income to fend off Japan. I find that if Russia buys 3inf + 1tank + 1 fighter in Turn 1 they have three fighters to attack the german fleet in the Med. Germany invaribly attacks egypt on Rd1, Russia then attacks that fleet with three fighters killing the transport and many times takes out the battleship leaving Germany with the option of replacing that fleet or losing africa.

Thanks for the input.

However, with such a build, germany could not worry about its fleet going east, but west. Your 3 fighters are useless against its fleet, because its not there.

I also think Germany will overwhelm the USSR, with the severe lack of land units you have by buying the fighter.

Squirecam

[VanGal]

The difference I've been kicking around is placing 4 units in the Causcus at the end of the turn instead of one. Without using the German BB and tranny, they could come after the Caucus with a max of 7 ground units (3 inf, one art, 3 tank). If Germany does do that, or any other attack into the Caucus, no other point on the eastern front will be fortifiable (sp?) enough without dumping some/all of the German airforce into that territory.


GSH34

If I am playing the Germans and Russia has left Cau lightly held I would be taking it with Germany. Then, every turn after that I will be retaking it because Russia cannot afford to ever let Germany keep it. By the 3rd to 4th round Russia will be fighting just to survive, nevermind sending forces to help take out Japan.

I would seriously consider attacking any Russians in range of any Japanese units to prevent them from heading back West to fight the Germans.

This was basically the strategy we used in the Finals at the Mega Tournament.

Carl

[AllWeNeedIsLove.]

kjf=fun
kjf=viable strategy
kjf<kgf
kjf does not equal win(dont know where the not equal button on keyboard is)

bushido im looking forward to our two game kjf challenge. it will be interesting to see if either of our kjfs win

[Lt M Cotten]

Hmmm.... See, I've had some bad experience with light Pearl, and I just always figured if I was going to do it, the Japan BB was committed there. And once those neurons are wired...


Pearl Light was never to my tastes either, too watered down. :D

(Anyone else out there old enough to remember Pearl Light?)

[axis_roll]

To the top... Caspian sub guys are discussing Pros/Cons of KJF