SWM Grognards

[ManimalX]

I know I saw Engineer and roguetrada. Any other SWM Groggies here?

What do you guys think of the rules transition? Fairly similar, yet backwards in some regards.

So far I love the 'simultaneous attacks' aspect. All of the other Mini games I have played (HC, MK, MW) really suffered from First-Strike-Syndrome. Stat degradation is just too imbalanced the way they did it. SWM was a step in the right direction with damage being applied after an attack, but no stat degradation. I think AAM takes it another positive step forward.

Anyway, hello to everyone, and I hope to have some great discussions with all y'all.

[ravi0007]

Hi ManimalX. Got my starter a couple of days ago. Obviously the A&A theme is a whole lot different than SW minis. The shop which sells me SW @ $96.00 a case is selling A&A @ 130.00. Due do this constrain, I have chosen to buy loose booster @ probably one booster a week. Is the game doing well in your area?

[skeevo666]

I have a fellow SWM gamer as well as a Flames of War player interested.


I guess you can say they're similar if you consider tanks to be the "heroes" ;)



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[AllGoodGecko]

I'm here- despite my finances lol. I'll have to start playing with the starter set (which a good friend of mine is trading me in exchange for a SWHuge booster lol). I have a bunch of 15mm stuff- er ok I have a LOT of 15mm stuff so I'll use that till I can trade for enough WOTC figures- heaven help me if I have to wait till X-mas :(

[NightMoor]

I'm a standby from the D&D and SWM boards, been playing both games since they came out.

I love the rules, except for cover rolls.

Can't wait to put some of my new stuff to the test! I mean, I've gotta find a use for my 5 Panzerfausts now that I pulled them all out of 4 packs, right? ;-).

[Engineer]

What do you guys think of the rules transition? Fairly similar, yet backwards in some regards.

So far I love the 'simultaneous attacks' aspect. All of the other Mini games I have played (HC, MK, MW) really suffered from First-Strike-Syndrome. Stat degradation is just too imbalanced the way they did it. SWM was a step in the right direction with damage being applied after an attack, but no stat degradation. I think AAM takes it another positive step forward.

There are several sever issues with the rules that will prevent me from buying a case of figs.

Def 7 superior armor 2 tanks (you can really only kill them with a similar squad and where is the fun in that).

Cover rolls, I can negate your killing shot 33% ro 50% of the time. Why is that, my paint job blends in better?

Too many factions in the first set.

Tanks as R's. IMO, there should only be C and UC and you get 2/3 tanks in a booster.

Damage at the same time is a help. I would like to see tanks have 4 levels of damage instead of 3.

[Dr.Cornelius]

Def 7 superior armor 2 tanks (you can really only kill them with a similar squad and where is the fun in that).This is true, but there is a simple solution. Both players agree on a year before starting play.

Lightly armed 1941-2 tanks have little chance against heavily armored 1944 tanks, but armies from the same period are fairly matched. For tournaments, you can assume that the year is 1944 unless the Tournament Organizer specifies otherwise in the announcement. Yes, this restricts your armor choice to Tiger I, Panther, JagdPanther or Easy 8. But remember that the game just launched and the East Front expansion will include additional late war tanks.

It is also possible that mass infantry close-assault is a viable alternative to expensive armor. There must be some reason that the R&D team priced the Royal Engineers at 10 points.

Cover rolls, I can negate your killing shot 33% ro 50% of the time. Why is that, my paint job blends in better?All squad-level wargames have some cover mechanic. Please make a better suggestion. Perhaps it will make its way into the expert rules.

Too many factions in the first set.What do you mean? The Germans have a complete lineup. Same with the Americans if you use the Vickers MG as a .30 cal Browning. British have a full lineup with a couple of US lend-lease additions. Same with the Soviets- borrow a Vickers MG to represent the Maxim MG and the USSR has a reasonable lineup. The Japanese are complete as is, given the scarcity of armor in the Pacific Theater.

The French & Italians are the only thin factions- but only represent two tanks and two infantry units. You can just ignore these 4 out of 48 units or fill in with other units. I commend the developers for choosing 48 units that enable playing at least the following theaters/times:

D-Day France 1944: M4A1 Sherman & Crocodile vs Panzer IV & Panther

West Front Winter 44/Spring 45: Easy Eight & Hellcat vs Panther, JagdPanther, Tiger 1

East Front 1941-42: Panzer IV vs T34/76 & KV-1

Desert War: Panzer II & Carro Armato vs Crusader, Stuart & Lee

Pacific Theater: USA/UK vs Japan

Good coverage considering only 48 units in the first set.

If the second set adds a Pz III J, an early Pz IV, French Char and an early British tank the early war will be covered too.

Tanks as R's. IMO, there should only be C and UC and you get 2/3 tanks in a booster.Either you buy into the collectible business model or you don't. I personally think Hasbro is pushing it with the $15 booster msrp, but the product seems to be selling well. If you have a playgroup or are willing to buy/trade online, the cost is not too bad.

Overall, I think AH has done an very good job at a light tactical wargame. With some rules upgrades it has the potential to be a excellent game.

[roguetrada]

yes you did see me, in a thread about maps more than likely :D does anyone think that the sw space game could be similar to this?(tanks=capital ships/infatry=star fighters/squadrons)

[ManimalX]

Is the game doing well in your area?

Well, I bought 1 booster and a starter (got Easy 8 and a KV-1, woohoo!) and it looked like there was already a case of boosters and a case of starters gone. Pretty crisp sales in the few hours the product was one the floor. The shop owner hadn't even put them on display yet, the cases were just sitting on the floor.


I'm here- despite my finances

It seems we 'sale' the same sea in the same boat. I can't decide what to put my 'extra' $$$ into. A bank would be ideal, but we can't have that with so many packages of plastic crack available, now can we?

Engineer: I always respect your opinion, as I have seen your head for tactics and strategy elsewhere. I will have to get some battles under my belt before I make any comments on your nits.

This is true, but there is a simple solution. Both players agree on a year before starting play.

Excellent point. I hope any official tourneys we see won't be completely open ended.

I recommend keeping an eye out for any comments by Engineer. He is quite sharp when it comes to game mechanics and metas.

Also, thank you for the informative unit breakdown. That was quite helpful to an amateur historian like myself. Ancient Jewish, Middle Eastern, and Church history I can do, but my WW2 knowleddge is lacking.

[CdtWeasel]

I mill about in the SWM board also. Still waiting to play my first game of A&A minis, do have a hard time finding mature opponents in my area

[Engineer]

I mill about in the SWM board also. Still waiting to play my first game of A&A minis, do have a hard time finding mature opponents in my area

I looked today for a AAM Vassal mod and there is not one posted. I'm sure it will only be a matter of time before someone publishes a mod.

[Sean-Khan]

I'm here :) And surprise, surprise, planning to do some terrains :D I'll have to find some time for that too, and get my long-awaited casting materials (I'm soon going to give some strong words for the store that is supposed to get them).

I'm not going to buy a lot (nor did I want to buy but a few boxes of DDM and some Rebel storm singles & starter from SWM - But this time... ;) ) There's two things that made me interested in this - possiblity of different -scale modelling and nostalgy (as a kid I was very interested in WW2 -stuff). Well, and rules are different from SWM and DDM, but interestng and still pretty light.

[roguetrada]

I looked today for a AAM Vassal mod and there is not one posted. I'm sure it will only be a matter of time before someone publishes a mod.
just wait, till i get my starter :p ;) :)

hmmm i have nothing else to do for the next 2-3 hours :D vassal here i come

[roguetrada]

here's a w.i.p. and you may want to check the vassal site again :)

[AllGoodGecko]

although the game looks simple rule wise I would point out that the rules for chess are simple- yet a chess master can make the game very complex so I am actually impressed by the easy rules for WWII. I've played Battleground WWII and it was more detailed as well as a variety of Avalon hills board games and I don't think more complex rules make for a better game personally. My only complaint would be the tanks being rare....

[pizzadude5000]

Yo, good game. I am going to try and limit my purchases to one or two packs a week and try to collect a whole set by January. Collecting all of Universe in a month has put a real strain on me, but this game is better. No Unique rares to sit in a box waiting for trade.

[skystalker]

Here's another SWM player, but I'm not so sure that AAM is for me. I like the smaller set size (easier to acquire), and they've done a reasonable job on the sculps, albeit some being out of scale. So far, I'm only in for the starter set and trying it out.

[ParaTrooper]

Hi,
I'm YouRebelScum elsewhere... (SWM, D&D etc).
I just got my first starter and booster (late I know). I have some more minis coming. So far I like what I have seen, but have not played yet.

[skeevo666]

I said SWN... now what is that?


Star Wars Nuggets (It's a delicious miniatures game you can only play at KFC :p )




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[admiral_yamoto]

i used to be. I just didnt have the patience to collect miniatures and not get the guy I wanted. Also, nobody plays where i live

[ParaTrooper]

Star Wars Nuggets (It's a delicious miniatures game you can only play at KFC :p )




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Check the edit soldier... man, your reply was fast!

[sonicyouth]

I'm Figrin D'an.

from swm boards.

ATM, I'm sort of undecided how much I'll get into the game.


After playing a bit, I agree with Engineer about cover saves.

Cover Saves are a complete joke in this game and really make what would be an amazing game somewhat lackluster.



The sad thing is that this annoyance has nothing to do with 'competitive' play or finding 'loopholes'.

Its a random factor that determines games.

And IMO, that is a MAJOR problem.


But is there an easy fix?

So for collectability, I love AAM. Its fairly easy to pick up a set and the mini's aren't to bad (even though we sell 15MM WWII minis in blisters that are cheaper and look better).


And aside from the bogus cover rules, the game is fantastic.

But its definitely not on par with DDM and SWM in terms of a balanced well designed CMG.


I've decided to not even play with the Cover rule at all. Its just to random. And honestly I''m having more fun.

[skeevo666]

Check the edit soldier... man, your reply was fast!


To make a joke based on a typo . . .you have to be! :cool:




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[dudemaestro]

I love both games. I love both premises. I geeked when I saw both of them for the first time. They are the greatest Mini games out right now.

[ManimalX]

Hmmm... I just can't agree with the folks who oppose the way cover works in AAM. I look at it from a 'reality' standpoint. A squad of guys in a forest are NOT going to be easy to dig out. Same for enemies in urban areas. We have problems with urban combat even in modern combat, and this game is WW2.

You know the enemy is there, you open fire semi-randomly, and chances are you are only going to make them hide until you reload. This = 'disrupted only' in my book. Is there a chance that you will still hit and destroy them? Sure, but cover is key in real-world combat.

The +4 DEF bonus in SWM is a fine rule, but that game is an up close, one-on-one skirmish, where AAM takes place on a squad level over 100's of meters.

And I know, this is 'just a game' but it does have SOME basis in real-world physics.

[PUNISHER]

yes you did see me, in a thread about maps more than likely :D does anyone think that the sw space game could be similar to this?(tanks=capital ships/infatry=star fighters/squadrons)

Hi rouge! Good to see ya on here. I have not burnt anything up lately. ;)


Actully guys, I think im likein this game more than SWM. It's more fun to play in my opinion.

[PatriotUSA]

As a history and sci-fi geek, I'm into both of these games. (I'm Zak! in the SWM forum.) However, I've given up on the SWM tournament scene, particularly since the release of Universe. The last few times I've played tournaments I just wasn't having any fun because the game doesn't resemble Star Wars to me anymore. (Viper droids? Vong? Thrawn?)

When the SWM game first came out it had a lot of tactical interest based on the interplay of unique characters, officers, and the "grunts." But in my opinion that tactical game has been replaced by a bunch of hyperpowerful beatsticks, which really means the game comes down to luck, both with dice and with booster pulls. Fortunately I can still set up some interesting scenarios at home to play with my kids.

But I digress. What has impressed me about both SWM and AAM is the tactical aspect of the games. I wouldn't play either if the fundamental game mechanics wasn't good. About the only thing I don't like about AAM is that they had too many "factions" (i.e. nationalities) in the first set, which makes it hard to field a decent army from one country without buying a ton of boosters.

Hmmm... I just can't agree with the folks who oppose the way cover works in AAM. I look at it from a 'reality' standpoint. A squad of guys in a forest are NOT going to be easy to dig out. Same for enemies in urban areas. We have problems with urban combat even in modern combat, and this game is WW2.

You know the enemy is there, you open fire semi-randomly, and chances are you are only going to make them hide until you reload. This = 'disrupted only' in my book. Is there a chance that you will still hit and destroy them? Sure, but cover is key in real-world combat.

The +4 DEF bonus in SWM is a fine rule, but that game is an up close, one-on-one skirmish, where AAM takes place on a squad level over 100's of meters.

And I know, this is 'just a game' but it does have SOME basis in real-world physics.

I agree. However, I've only played a couple of games of AAM. I can see a potential problem with cover being at once so powerful and yet so random.

[Chaz Ghostle]

I'm enjoying the game. We've had 3 tournaments so far, each with 10+ people. My first few rares were the Greedos, Captive Leias, and Evazans of the set, but the commons kept me coming back.

I disagree that the defense 7 Superior Armor 2 tanks are unbalanced. Soldiers are the real power of this game. I can't recall any tanks with higher than a 9 against soldiers at short range.

[Tannhauser]

I can't recall any tanks with higher than a 9 against soldiers at short range.

Churchill Crocodile :D

[Demolitiondude]

I know I saw Engineer and roguetrada. Any other SWM Groggies here?

What do you guys think of the rules transition? Fairly similar, yet backwards in some regards.

So far I love the 'simultaneous attacks' aspect. All of the other Mini games I have played (HC, MK, MW) really suffered from First-Strike-Syndrome. Stat degradation is just too imbalanced the way they did it. SWM was a step in the right direction with damage being applied after an attack, but no stat degradation. I think AAM takes it another positive step forward.

Anyway, hello to everyone, and I hope to have some great discussions with all y'all.
Star Wars, no; MechWarrior, yep. I feel bad that you don't like MechWarrior. From every battle I been in MechWarrior, there was no FSS of any kind on the battlefield unless the BattleMaster's planetary condiction BOMBS AWAY! (made the name up, but that's what it was) is in effect.

[TeaJay33]

i am here from the SWM board too. unfortunately no one plays SWM in person here, but this game is taking on like wildfire, so i'm sure to play. its been so long since i've played against an actual person and not someone online (not that its bad, but ya know..) anyways, neat game so far, cool figures. just waiting for airborne. death from above!

[madmonkee]

Def 7 superior armor 2 tanks (you can really only kill them with a similar squad and where is the fun in that).


If you can pin them twice in a phase it still counts as 1 damaged. the key to killing big tanks is using the Zerg strategy. lots and lots of shots.

[Y2UAsk]

If you can pin them twice in a phase it still counts as 1 damaged. the key to killing big tanks is using the Zerg strategy. lots and lots of shots.
Exactly. You don't need eight successes to damage a Panther, you need 6 successes twice. That's easier to come by.

I'm a big fan of the SWM game, and I'm also a grognard wargamer from way back (1970s). When I first played AAM, I thought, "pleasant game, nice figs, but I already have tons of WW2 minis in micro-scale and 28mm, plus an entire shelf of ASL rules and expansions, plus three copies of Panzerblitz, so I don't see myself spending much money on it." Except I kept being drawn back to it, and the more I played it, the more I liked it. Now I'm hooked.

Still love SWM, but for the first time with Univers, I didn't order any cases. I did order a case of AAM.

Steve

[AllGoodGecko]

Yeah I hadn't planned on buying many of these boosters- then I noticed that because of the excellent rarity for the tanks in this game I am almost looking at a full set already. Also the ebay prices have dropped to less than $5 for most rares. I dont want to bash Star Wars but this game sure has been cheaper to collect.

[skeevo666]

I dont want to bash Star Wars but this game sure has been cheaper to collect.

Luckily Uncle George didn't create WWII or have a copyright to it :p



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[Engineer]

Also the ebay prices have dropped to less than $5 for most rares. I dont want to bash Star Wars but this game sure has been cheaper to collect.

I saw 6 cases at $102 and $12 shipping not sell on EBAY.

It is tempting to buy a case (even if I don't like the rules), but I'm going to wait a month. The case price might tank.

[Dr.Cornelius]

(even if I don't like the rules)What don't you like about the rules?

[Engineer]

What don't you like about the rules?

Tiger, Sherman Easy Eight tanks (Def 7 superior armor 2), and Crocs.

Inf with def of 5

Location on Objective token

Starting 5 hexes into the map

Strike and Fade (could become like MK Big Bound)

Really, the mini's are not all that great.

Too few tanks are really playable.

and the worst is the cover rules.

[Dr.Cornelius]

Tiger, Sherman Easy Eight tanks (Def 7 superior armor 2), and Crocs.The Tiger & Easy Eight were basically included to face off with each other. You are correct in that (as in real life) the early war tanks were no match for the heavily armed & armored late war tanks.
Try playing 150 points with a force pool of 1944 tanks: Tiger 1 (technically 1942), JPz, E8, Croc & Hellcat. You will find that it is a good game.

The East Front expansion is expected to bring more heavy tanks to fill out the late war scenarios: Tiger II, Sherman Firefly, T34/85, JS II, etc.

Inf with def of 5The elite infantry are strong units, but not broken. Headhunt the SS-Hauptsturmfurher and the setup falls apart. And have you tried the Commissar with Vickers MG & M2 Mortar? Commissar is a very fair fight against the SS.

East Front should also introduce heavier mortars & artillery to deal with def 5 infantry.

Location on Objective tokenThe Objective is generally near the center of the map in the standard scenario. What is the issue? If you don't like the standard, the Assault scenario is very good, and the R&D team is posting interesting historical scenarios on the web page.

Starting 5 hexes into the mapYes. This is a problem. A lot of us on the boards are hoping that this will be corrected in the expansion. In the mean time we are playing with a house rule that vehicles start on the map edge.

Strike and Fade (could become like MK Big Bound)So far S&F is not a big issue. Its a cool ability, but only works if you go first and only exists on two scout cars and a crappy tank. The Humber and Sdfkz 222 are easily dispatched if a tank gets them in its sights. You can also buy a machine gun (2 shots/phase) for the cost of the scout car's 1 shot/phase.

As to the M3 Lee Tank (the one w/ strike & fade). Play it out. You will find that for the same points a generic Sherman and a Stuart are more effective for the points.

IMHO the R&D team has done a nice job of balancing the units & factions (the 5-hex start notwithstanding). Note that the Hellcat does not have Strike & Fade. Rumor has it that the Hellcat was originally designed with S&F, but it was removed after playtest to maintain balance.

Really, the mini's are not all that great.No argument there. Not nearly as impressive as DDM or SWM. But I'm playing because I like the game mechanic. Its a light tactical wargame that plays fast and produces depth of strategy without needing excessive amounts of charts, tables and rules conplexity.

Too few tanks are really playable.This is a collectible game, which means that a significant part of every set is destined to be unplayable. The good news is that the unplayable tanks are actually playable if confined to scenarios with tanks from the same period. For example, Pz II vs Renault in a France 1940 scenario.

That being said, the primary factions (Germany, US/UK, USSR) all have a good selection of mid war tanks, which is where the meat of the game is right now.

and the worst is the cover rules.Agreed. The cover rules are the weakest part of an otherwise excellent rules system. Have patience. The game just came out. I have faith that each expansion will introduce rules improvements.

In the meantime, I am working on a house rule that maintains the basic cover mechanic, but makes it much less likely that a unit will make two or three cover saves in a phase. Basically a unit would get -1 on future cover saves for each cover save it made this phase.

Current System:
Probability of an infantry unit making one save: 50%
P(2 saves): 25%
P(3 saves): 12.5%

Revised Cover Rules
P(1 save): 50%
P(2 saves): 17%
P(3 saves): 3%

[Engineer]

I should also have said the d6 is an issue. Why not a d8 or d10. IMO the d20 would be the best.

[Engineer]

Also, several of your responses were "this will be fixed in the next expansion".

I'm an ex-WK game player (yes, feel sorry for me). Don't wait to fix something, fix it now. This is a brand new game, why are there any balance/game play issues at all? Was the internal playtesting not that good? It is hard to buy a game with the promise that the next expansion will "fix" the issues.

[Chaz Ghostle]

The only thing I hate about this game is how cover works. I'm fine with everything else. I have more complaints about Star Wars Than I do about this game.

Engineer, you played Star Wars during all of RotS, when nothing was changed about Chewie and Tarrful, Tyranus and Dooku, and, most importantly, Override. How can you complain now about promises of future fixes?

[Engineer]

Engineer, you played Star Wars during all of RotS, when nothing was changed about Chewie and Tarrful, Tyranus and Dooku, and, most importantly, Override. How can you complain now about promises of future fixes?

Chewie and Tarrful, Tyranus and Dooku - were never really problems. No one really played these figs anyway.

Override was an issue. As soon as the Gambit rules were out for playtesting, that solved the issue.

AAM issues are more basic (and more than one thing).

I'm not sure what the fix for def 7 superior armor 2 tanks is besides power creep (or a larger tank that becomes the new problem).

I think the real telling point of AAM sales is the secondary market (EBAY). Cases did not sell at $115 (shipped). How can a local store hope to sell boosters at $15 each? I would like this to be a good game. When WOTC fixes the rules, then I'll play.

[PUNISHER]

I wonder if A&A will beat out SWM. Cuz the next "Set" for SWM is eight months away. while the next A&A is coming out Dec 7th. I wonder how many other SWM guys/gals will start playing A&A?.....

[Dr.Cornelius]

I'm not sure what the fix for def 7 superior armor 2 tanks is besides power creep (or a larger tank that becomes the new problem).The armor 7 tanks are well balanced against each other. Tiger I vs Easy Eight or even three Hellcats is an interesting match. The AAM factions & units are at least as well balanced as the initial set for any CMG.

Please remember that AAM has dual audiences and dual challenges: historical acuracy and gameplay/balance. The reality is that the early war tanks were totally outclassed by late war tanks. I think the developers have done a very good job of pricing the tanks relative to infantry and to each other.

Now three basic Shermans have a shot to take out a Tiger, but it takes a lot of skill to use the Sherman's speed advantage to set up the flank shots- and its a dice game, so it still comes down to rolls.

I really believe that AAM is best played with units from approximately the same time period:

Pz II vs Renault in France 1940
Pz IV vs T34/76 & KV-1 in Russian Front 41/42
Pz II/IV & Carro Armato vs Stuart & Lee in north Africa
Pz IV & Panther vs M4A1 Sherman on D-Day
Panther, Jagdpanther and Tiger 1 vs Easy Eight, Hellcat and Crocodile in winter '44-spring '45.

[Jughead]

Greetings Gentlemen,
I've also made the plunge over from SWM (FLYJughead over there). One of my SWM friends and I have picked up a few boosters and the starter. He's had better luck with his pulls as I've gotten two Italian tanks already.

I don't mind them, but this early on I would've prefered not to have gotten a duplicate rare but thus is life in the CMG world...

I don't know the game well enough yet to make any gripes or defending comments on the rules as I'm already discovering that we played various aspects incorrectly in our first game.

I like the game so far. It seems easy to pick up and quick to play. The mini's really are mini, which is good for storage cause I don't have a lot of space left with all my SWM but it makes it harder to see any detail on them. Maybe making them bigger would've cost more money? The booster costs are already on par with SWM.

Plus, the size of them makes it harder for me to tell which figure is which and it doesn't leave much option for customizing anything since they're all so small...

[Engineer]

I almost bought some AAM today. There are some really cheap auctions right now with buy it now.

I did not purchase any. The price is still too high for a game that is not doing well. I think my local store sold a few boosters (maybe).

[Tannhauser]

I did not purchase any. The price is still too high for a game that is not doing well.

AAM is "not doing well?" The local stores in my area have already sold out once and are close to selling out their current stock. If anything, I would suggest that the fact that every rare (even the so-called "crappy" rares) is selling for at least $5 on Ebay is a good sign that the game is doing quite well.

[AllGoodGecko]

yeah- the game isnt doing well if you are trying to sell sets. If you want to collect a good game it is doing very well- several cases sold in my area. Now to find a good place to play- I'm hoping this place called KardKaptors that i just discovered will be a good place to go.

[Chaz Ghostle]

It's doing good in our area. We even have weekly tournaments, with 10+ people.

[BjornBSQ]

Hey all... another SWMF crossover... not that anyone would recognize me...

Not doing well??? A&A is doing a heck of alot better in my area then SWM ever has! Saturdays (SWM Day) at our FLGS went from 1-2 SWM people & 1-2 40K freaks to 12-15 A&A people and me hopeing I can find a table to even play SWM. There on there 3rd shipment of multiple cases with several cases of Uni siting on there shelf from the initial shipment.

And to expensive? there the same price as SWM... and cheaper then Uni...