Sd Kfz 251: Stud or Dud?

[Dr.Cornelius]

I'm trying to figure out why the Sd Kfz 251 Halftrack is worth 14 points.

Breaking down the cost:
Transport: 4 points (Jeep has +1 speed & -1 armor, assigned same cost)
Machine Gun: 6 points (better than standard infantry, not as good as Vickers)

This implies that the Fighting Platform ability is worth around 4 points.

Add a MG 42 and you have a strong anti-infantry unit. The only problem is that for the same 24 points you could have bought three Sd Kfz 222 light armored cars with similar MG attacks and Strike & Fade. Or you could go with one 222 and a Sig 33.

Its also possible that the 251 could be effective in an anti-armor role transporting a Panzerfaust, but it makes a juicy target and it is very difficult for an infantry unit to get a range 0 (rear) attack on an un-disrupted armored vehicle.

The 251 was a mainstay of German forces and I want to like it, but the points just don't add up. Anybody else tried using the 251?

[NightMoor]

There is no way this thing is worth 14 pts. I think it's the first real stinker of the set. With 2 defense, other Infantry pieces can kill this thing with ease, let alone vehicles.

The Fighting Platform ability is worthless when it's on a unit that is easier to kill than the infantry itself! Think about it - would you rather have your Panzergrenadiers fighting with 5 defense, or 2?

If the Halftrack had a better defense, like 4, maybe you could consider it (though it would still be terribly overpriced for what it did), but as it stands the halftrack is a garbage unit. I've seen it in action, and it makes no sense why the designers costed it, or statted it, the way they did (from a strategy standpoint).

[HerrBrenner]

Until now I had no cance to use the Sd Kfz 251 in a game. I think it can best be used to hunt down enemy infantry carrying a MG42. I'll test that soon, as I constructed a vehicle-rush army and needed some anti-inf. power.

Problem is that if you target Bazookas, your Sd Kfz 251 with the MG 42 is toasted before you can say:"incoming fire". If you load a Panzerfaust 30 no sane Allied general will let you get close enough to do any significant damage.

I think I prefer one Sd Kfz 222 and a sIG 33, but still I give the Combo a chance because of the better attack value at long range and the extra attack of the MG 42.
Yes, the sIG 33 has the blast ability, but I belive that a general won't stack infantry
when setting up against one.

I'll try it and post results

Grüße

[Plagued]

The Sdkfz 251 is really a liability. The fighting platform is a fun option, but unless you hold back, you're looking at having two units die to the first medium tank that opens fire. The main advantage of this is to drop off your infantry deep into the board on the early turns. Since you can't tow guns with it (a glaringly inaccurate and lame exception, but others would disagree...), you've got a really fast MG that's easier to kill at 14 points.

[Old Fart]

It's a dud. In capital letters: DUD!!! There is no way in a 100 pt game that you can

afford to squeeze one in.

My friend and I are considering making a house rule to reduce the cost to 8 or 9 pts,

maybe then it might get used.

[dirtshredder]

I don't know if it is worth it's points or not, but if it is used, most infantry won't be able to hurt it unless they are in the same hex as it. This allows for them to be tacticaly used: The carry your infantry close to the enemy infantry who have low vehicle attack values, at which point you have the option of dismounting, or attacking while mounted. The Vikers Machine-Gun Team is the only infantry unit that could destroy the '251 ( with it's double shot ), and the odds are low for that.
I would like to play a few games to try this type of tactic out before I decide this unit is not the first choice of an army. Ahhh, tactics, terain, and combined arms; these things make this game so much more interesting.

Regards
Tom

[Major Adler]

it should have been allowed to carry 2 infantry units...and transports should have been allowed to carry/tow anti-tank guns...

the future 250 should be limited to one infantry unit...like the back of a tank or a jeep...

Adler...out...............

[AllGoodGecko]

I was under the impression that it could transport the Pak 38 as it is a soldier as well.

[Stojakovic]

Only worth in scenario games... or if you play some big battle for a couple hundred points on a big field

[Plagued]

I was under the impression that it could transport the Pak 38 as it is a soldier as well.

It can't. The rules don't really point that out, but the abilities listing in the back of the rule book states in the bottom of the transport entry that 'artillery' (aka: AT guns) cannot be transported with the transport ability.

[Plagued]

Only worth in scenario games... or if you play some big battle for a couple hundred points on a big field

Or if you're playing a rule set other than A&AM. I could easily use a handful of these in Blitzkrieg Commander.

[AllGoodGecko]

hmmm yeah then it blows lol

[NewtonCain]

not worth the points. At 2/2 defense a vickers can take it out (lot a 222 scout on Sat night this same way). With the set up being up to 5 hexes in, there is no real reason to use it besides for flavor (Mechized unit or something).

[XAos]

There is no way this thing is worth 14 pts. I think it's the first real stinker of the set. With 2 defense, other Infantry pieces can kill this thing with ease, let alone vehicles.

The Fighting Platform ability is worthless when it's on a unit that is easier to kill than the infantry itself! Think about it - would you rather have your Panzergrenadiers fighting with 5 defense, or 2?

If the Halftrack had a better defense, like 4, maybe you could consider it (though it would still be terribly overpriced for what it did), but as it stands the halftrack is a garbage unit. I've seen it in action, and it makes no sense why the designers costed it, or statted it, the way they did (from a strategy standpoint).
While I agree with you that it's an overcosted dud. And the analysis of why it is. I don't think it's the only one.
The Jagdpanther is inferior to the SS-Panther but costs 8 more points.
The Pzkw-IVg is about equal to the M4a1 but costs 9 more points.

[Dr.Cornelius]

Its too bad really. Historically, the German halftrack should be a staple unit, just like the US Jeep.

Fighting Platform
A Soldier carried by this unit can attack during your assault phase if this unit doesn't move during that phase. (emphasis mine)

Looking over the Fighting Platform ability again, I wounder if the wording wasn't changed after playtest to include the "if this unit doesn't move during that phase" phrase.

It seems to me that the Sd Kfz 251 could mount a very effective Blitz attack if the transported MG, Mortar, Panzerfaust or Solider were able to make an attack after the 251 moved in the assault phase.

The unrestricted Fighting Platform could also be used defensively, much like a Strike and Fade, with the transported unit firing then the 251 moving to cover in the assault phase.

I wonder if the 14 point cost reflected an unrestricted version of Fighting Platform that was deemed too strong after playtest, but the point cost was not modified to reflect the Fighting Platform nerf.

[mecra]

While I agree the transport is rather worthless, think about the complaining that would occur if it was given more armor and your panzergrenadiers could now move 4 with relative safety. (Aside from their own rather high defense.)

The US is all about mobility, short ranged devastation (Croc, Flamethrowers, etc). If you were to give that same mobility to units like Panzerfausts and grenadiers, people might have some issue with that.

So in truth, I'm not sure what a good fix would be for such a transport.

[Dr.Cornelius]

The Jagdpanther is inferior to the SS-Panther but costs 8 more points.
The Pzkw-IVg is about equal to the M4a1 but costs 9 more points.In both comparisons the more expensive tank rolls about the same number of dice as the cheaper tank, but at one range increment further. The R&D team priced the tanks with a high premuim on damage at long range and the Extended Range 12 ability.

Unfortunately the prevalance of blocking terrain combined with small maps and 5-hex setup leaves little chance to take advantage of the longer effective range.

Any R&D or playtesters care to comment?

[XAos]

The US is all about mobility, short ranged devastation (Croc, Flamethrowers, etc). If you were to give that same mobility to units like Panzerfausts and grenadiers, people might have some issue with that.




But the German Panzer divisions while a minority within the german army. Were also "All about mobility". I'm sure the allies would really have liked a way to complain about that. And I'm equally sure that Guderian, Rommel or whoever commanded the panzers would have ignored their complaints. :D
So most players should have "some issues" with a 251 not allowing the panzergrenadiers mobility.

[Dr.Cornelius]

Have not had a chance to playtest it yet, but here is a suggestion for improving the usefulness of transport:

Change the transport rule to
A transported unit may dismount if the transporting unit has not moved in the assault phase.

Currently transported units may only load/dismount in the movement phase.

The proposed change effectively gives the transported unit one additional hex of movement before being able to fire, making it slightly more likely that transported soldiers will be able to enter close assault. It also allows the transported soldier to avoid being destroyed along with the transport.

In addition, it fixes the problem of Russian infantry being permanently stuck on transport when the Commissar is killed.

I also recommend a change such that when a transport is disrupted the transported soldier is immediately dismounted and disrupted.

[NewtonCain]

unloading in the assault phaes would make the transport ability great. But it might tip the balance more in infanty's favor.

[Major Adler]

if the 251 could transport 2 infantry units...I beleave it would be worth it's cost...

in addition...transport units should be able to tow anti-tank guns(and I think that there should have been an "anti-tank gun" AND a "artillery" infantry sub unit type)...so for example - a 251 could carry a MG42 unit and tow a Pak38 OR carry a Haupsturnfuhrer and a PanzerGrenadier unit...a jeep could carry a infantry unit OR tow a 6 Pdr. ...tanks that can carry a inf. unit would not have the tow ability...

two rather simple erratas...add a "TOW artillery" ability to the 250 and jeep (jeep limited to towing anti-tank guns)...and change the 250's ability to be able to carry/tow 2 inf. units...

Adler...out..................

[Blair46]

So many people complain about little rules. I have a solution! (no sarcasm intended here so I'm sorry if it does sound a wee bit sarcastic) How's about you play a few games with your buddies with your modified rules and if it makes the game more balanced than by all means, keep playing with those rules and share with us what you changed. We could result in a much better game if we have our own house rules.

[Bobsalt]

I think the Sd Kfz 251 might be worth the points if it could tow anti-tank guns. I read in another post that it wasn't realistic to do that due to the time to load up/tow/unlimber the gun. My fix to that is let the gun start a scenario already limbered. Or, you could always say the gun can limber, unlimber, or fire in a turn - but only one of these. So, it it unlimbers on, say, turn 2, it could do nothing else until turn 3. I have the feeling there are going to be a lot of "house rules" in this game - speaking of which, is a "house rules" thread something we ought to consider starting?

[Blair46]

yes, yes we should, because that thread will help me ask questions about rules I'm thinking of adding (like a scout to make artillery able to indirectly fire) and the possibility of destroyable bridges and the such. Perhaps even making the game a little more BF1942-ish in the way of a conquest style of rules. There's also a possibility of making a Stalingrad or D-Day scenario that could use additional rules (perhaps a giant styrofoam carrier and little transport boats are in order, hmm). Those are just some of the ideas I have. :)

[Stojakovic]

are anti tank guns able to be transported by vehicles I am guessing yea because they count as infintry... sorry if this was answered :o

[panzerfaust666]

One rule that makes up for it's cost is letting the infantry unit disembalk and fire on the same turn that it is transported. Played a game like this yesterday...yeah my half track got taken out the turn after - but the panzerfaust it dropped off kocked out a sherman, and gave mny other troops time to move up.

[Dr.Cornelius]

One rule that makes up for it's cost is letting the infantry unit disembark and fire on the same turn that it is transported.Isn't that how the rules work now?

Movement Phase:
(Infantry unit starts turn on transport)
Transport Vehicle moves
Infantry unit dismounts

Assault Phase:
Infantry unit fires

=> Infantry unit moves on transport & fires in the same turn.

[XAos]

are anti tank guns able to be transported by vehicles I am guessing yea because they count as infintry... sorry if this was answered :o
P.31 of rules
Transport Vehicles can’t carry Soldiers with the subtype “Artillery.”
We are all new to this game & asking questions that have already been answered. ;) Thats one of the things this forum is for.

[SSG_Huble]

Here's another use that you may not have considered. Since this game has a Stacking Limit (p.31 AAM Rulebook: "Each hex can contain up to two units of each army. Only one of those four units can be a vehicle."),...you can use the Vehicle as a blocker.

After you have successfully transported your troop to the front line, or the positions where you want them, send the transport Vehicle back to a position of strategic importance and use it to prevent your opponent from moving a vehicle into a specific or strategically critical hex.

Use this tactic to give you at least a 1 turn delay from an advancing Armored Vehicle. Use this tactic perfectly and it can win you the game by giving you exclusive access to an objective. Since the Kfz251 has the Ability to Shoot, it makes this tactic just that much more effective than doing it with a Jeep.

Remember,...
...Amateurs practice until they get it right...
...Professionals practice until they can't get it wrong.

[Plagued]

Here's another use that you may not have considered. Since this game has a Stacking Limit (p.31 AAM Rulebook: "Each hex can contain up to two units of each army. Only one of those four units can be a vehicle."),...you can use the Vehicle as a blocker.

After you have successfully transported your troop to the front line, or the positions where you want them, send the transport Vehicle back to a position of strategic importance and use it to prevent your opponent from moving a vehicle into a specific or strategically critical hex.

Used this tactic to give you at least a 1 turn delay from an advancing Armored Vehicle. Use this tactic perfectly and it can win you the game by giving you exclusive access to an objective. Since the Kfz251 has the Ability to Shoot, it makes this tactic just that much more effective than doing it with a Jeep.

Remember,...
...Amateurs practice until they get it right...
...Professionals practice until they can't get it wrong.


It's a sound tactic. Even if the sdkfz 251 is destroyed by a second unit, the vehicle hoping to occupy the space still has to wait until the next turn to move into it.

The real question is, are you willing to toss 14 points away as a one turn block? It really doesn't do that much for an objective hold if the enemy player can still put more units in range of it than you can.

[SSG_Huble]

...The real question is, are you willing to toss 14 points away as a one turn block? It really doesn't do that much for an objective hold if the enemy player can still put more units in range of it than you can.

Agreed. However, keep in mind that most infantry have limited engagement dice against Vehicles unless they are in the same hex. Granted 2/2 Armor isn't great by any means, but it is a Vehicle nonetheless.

Where the American Jeep doesn't have the dice to return fire against Infantry, it is a little easier to stomach losing the vehicle using this tactic.

In my opinion, you would have to examine the situation on a case-by-case basis as to whether or not the benefit of employing this tactic outweighs the risk of losing the unit.

It's going to be a judgement call on your part.

[Vulturedoodle]

Used this tactic to give you at least a 1 turn delay from an advancing Armored Vehicle. Use this tactic perfectly and it can win you the game by giving you exclusive access to an objective. Since the Kfz251 has the Ability to Shoot, it makes this tactic just that much more effective than doing it with a Jeep.
Unless the attacker uses a flamethrower to clear the hex. Can you tell I'm not a big fan of the "immediate" weapons? :)

--SEF

[SSG_Huble]

Unless the attacker uses a flamethrower to clear the hex. Can you tell I'm not a big fan of the "immediate" weapons? :)
--SEF

Although incredibly less effective when you throw a Flamethrower unit into the scenario, it still creates a delay by one turn in the advance of the unit you are deliberately trying to block.

Personally, I would make sure that when you attempted the Vehicle Block Tactic, you did it in a location that had to important characteristics:
1) A hex of significant Strategic value, and...
2) Preferrably a hex with a cover roll.

[Stojakovic]

P.31 of rules
Transport Vehicles can’t carry Soldiers with the subtype “Artillery.”
We are all new to this game & asking questions that have already been answered. ;) Thats one of the things this forum is for.

yea but... I feel like a Jack ***** asking a question that has been answered unless it is at radio shack ;)

[dmacleod66]

the best use of the 251 is to move up quickly and drop off a MG team or anti tank infantry in forest or city hexs

[Dr.Cornelius]

the best use of the 251 is to move up quickly and drop off a MG team or anti tank infantry in forest or city hexsRight. The issue isn't that the 251 is not useful, the issue is that it is not worth 14 points. A Jeep can also transport, but costs only 4 points. The 251 has an inherent machine gun, which I think is worth about 6 points. That leaves the Fighting Platform ability costing 4 points.

Think of it this way: three Sdkfz 251 halftracks cost as much as two Sherman tanks. Which would you rather have?

[Vulturedoodle]

Think of it this way: three Sdkfz 251 halftracks cost as much as two Sherman tanks. Which would you rather have?
Nicely put.

--SEF

[Bobsalt]

yea but... I feel like a Jack ***** asking a question that has been answered unless it is at radio shack ;)

Yeah, but unlike Radio Shack we don't demand you give us your name and address everytime you ask a qeustion.... :rolleyes:

[TheFoeHammer]

I have not read the whole thread. But has someone mentioned the benefit of putting a Panzerfaust 30 in the 251. Since the 251 already has small arms capability he can handle soldiers, put in a Panzerfaust and now he can swat a tank.

A good tactic might be to start the game with the Panzerfaust mounted. Move it within range 1 or 2 against a lighter tank or the rear of a medium tank, then in the assault phase fire the Panzerfaust. Next movement phase dismount the Panzerfaust and if desired move the halftrack back out of the way or leave him to provide small arms cover for the Faust. The most vulnerable time for the Panzerfaust is when he suffers from being killed while in the halftrack. He's actually more durable on his own.

Apologize for any duplication of ideas.

[TheFoeHammer]

OK I read the early parts of the thread too. One thing to think about for his costing is that he can protect whatever is using his firing platform from Small Arms fire. Example, all allied riflemen can hit a soft target at range 2-4 with at least 6 dice. Where at the same range they can't hit the halftrack at all. And at range 0-1 they do 8 dice against a soft target but 2 vs. vehicles. So that's double most of the defense values of transportees if they were on their own and only "equal" vs. the 251's defense. So it increases the odds of the loaded unit surviving against small arms fire. That might be worth the 4 points for firing platform. But overall 19 points to get an all around unit might be better spent on more versatile cheap Axis tanks like the Ha-Go or even the Carro Armato.

[Akela152]

The SdkfZ 251 is extremely useful if you set the date to 1939 1940. The only other vehicule that can blow it is the Renault at speed 2 and infantry in close combat. It's the first transport avalable (1939) so it's normal is is less effective later in the war.

[Dr.Cornelius]

Sdkfz 251 + Panzerfaust is the poor man's tank destroyer. But is it worth 19 points?

251/Faust effective stats:

Speed: 4
Defense: 2/2

Soldiers: 8/7/6
Vehicles: 2/2/2

High Gear 2
Additional Attack: during the assault phase this vehicle may make an additional 10/6/- attack against vehicles if it does not move.

The Sherman is only 2 more points for Defense 5/4, a slightly stronger anti-soldier attack and a substantially stronger and longer range anti-vehicle attack.

Bottom Line: Sdkfz 251 is cool and should be a staple of German forces but the points just don't add up when compared to similar units.

The only explanation that I can come up with is that the Firing Platform special ability originally did not have the restriction that the vehicle could not move in the assault phase. Going second, the 251 was able to hide safely behind LOS blocking terrain, then move and fire in the assault phase. Playtest determined the Blitzkrieg maneuver to be too powerful and nerfed Fighting Platform, but the point cost was not reduced accordingly.

Hopefully the development team figured out in later playtest that the current 251 is overcosted and has a more cost effective German transport in the East Front expansion. Rules for towing artillery would be nice too.

[TheFoeHammer]

Actually the better comparison for me is the M3 Stuart. He has the luxury of making two attacks, just like the 251/ Faust combo would and has a 4/3 defense for only 15 points.

But neither of these units are available for the Axis, and as mentioned, in 1939 the 251 might have been more useful.

[dmacleod66]

i think the defence for the halftrack should be 5 not 2 so it gives a little extra pertection to the soldier riding in it

[Vulturedoodle]

i think the defence for the halftrack should be 5 not 2 so it gives a little extra pertection to the soldier riding in it
That's good, but on the same basis I could say I think it should mount a 128mm gun and be able to fly. ;)

--SEF

[elindo]

That's good, but on the same basis I could say I think it should mount a 128mm gun and be able to fly. ;)

--SEF

I guess playing with little toy soldiers brings out the kid in all of us... ;)

[Akela152]

Actually the better comparison for me is the M3 Stuart. He has the luxury of making two attacks, just like the 251/ Faust combo would and has a 4/3 defense for only 15 points.

But neither of these units are available for the Axis, and as mentioned, in 1939 the 251 might have been more useful.


But, try to see it that way, it's the only transport option In the complete axis Armory...

This bring you to say that generaly, the german army is slow and powerfull. Were it lack is in mobility unlike the Allies wich has faster, weaker vehicules.

I know that there is some exceptions to these rules (like the sdkfz 222 and the churchill tank wich is slowwwwwwww and not that powerfull) but i guess that it's the general guidelines.

The point cont is made so that you can't mix the two army. Don't eaven think about making me beleve that the easy 8 is beter then the Panzer V (as in Panzer 5) - Panther!

As an axis player, I would consider mobility as my big weakness and i would try to compensate that way: I would send my troops in position with their transport while they are still covered by the range of my tank's attacks. If they can be in position on turn two insted than on turn 5 or 6 (at speed 1, it really is a long walk...), the other player will try to shoot at my infantry because he's under fire and he can't reach my tanks! The big guns take care of the allied vehicules and move foward to take care of what's left. Well you get the picture.

Try that list:

1x Panzer V-Panther
2x Sd Kfz 251
1x SS-Panzergrenadier
1x Mauser 98k
1x Mg 42



And don't say it's bad before you tried it.

[mecra]

i think the defence for the halftrack should be 5 not 2 so it gives a little extra pertection to the soldier riding in it

5 is too much. I'd be willing to go 3/3 for it considering the deadliness of Axis infantry.

[AllGoodGecko]

yeah if it was 5 it would be as tough as a sherman

[a&a rocks]

i like the 222 cuz its good at killing infantry then striking and fading very far away when combined with high gear.