SS-Panther Ausf.G - 1942?

[Thunderanger]

I just checked the "Encyclopedia Of German Tanks Of World War Two: The Complete Illustrated Dictionary of German Battle Tanks,Armoured Cars, Self-Propelled Guns and Semi-Track" by Peter Chamberlain and Hilary Doyle, there were 3126 Ausf. G produced between Mar 1944 to Apr 1945. Shouldn't the year on the card be 1944 then?

Even the earlier versions, Ausf D and A were not available until 1943. The 1942 year with the Ausf G on the stat card seems to be an error?

[Ben W]

Might be an error. But my guess is certain liberties have been taken with the service years for game playability.

Ben.

[NewtonCain]

I just checked the "Encyclopedia Of German Tanks Of World War Two: The Complete Illustrated Dictionary of German Battle Tanks,Armoured Cars, Self-Propelled Guns and Semi-Track" by Peter Chamberlain and Hilary Doyle, there were 3126 Ausf. G produced between Mar 1944 to Apr 1945. Shouldn't the year on the card be 1944 then?

Even the earlier versions, Ausf D and A were not available until 1943. The 1942 year with the Ausf G on the stat card seems to be an error?

I own a copy of that out of print book. A very, very nice reference. :D

[M2A0]

March 1944 is the correct date of introduction for the Ausf. G.

[bsmart]

NewtonCain said:
I own a copy of that out of print book. A very, very nice reference.

I'm pretty sure it is still in print. At least Amazon says you can still buy it new for $19.95 and it ships in 24 hours.

I can strongly recommend both it and 'British and American Tanks of World War II' by CHamberlain and Ellis.

I see there is what appears to be a similar book on Soviet Tanks 'Russian Tanks of World War II: Stalins Armored might' by Tim Bean and Will Fowler. Does anyone have any experiance with this book?

Bob Smart (bsmart@monocacy.com)

[NewtonCain]

NewtonCain said:
I own a copy of that out of print book. A very, very nice reference.

I'm pretty sure it is still in print. At least Amazon says you can still buy it new for $19.95 and it ships in 24 hours.

I can strongly recommend both it and 'British and American Tanks of World War II' by CHamberlain and Ellis.

I see there is what appears to be a similar book on Soviet Tanks 'Russian Tanks of World War II: Stalins Armored might' by Tim Bean and Will Fowler. Does anyone have any experiance with this book?

Bob Smart (bsmart@monocacy.com)

Cool and thanks. When I got my copy 1986ish, it was out of print. I wonder if they made a 2nd printing or found a warehouse full of 1st printings.

[Pete G]

[QUOTE=Thunderanger]I just checked the "Encyclopedia Of German Tanks Of World War Two: The Complete Illustrated Dictionary of German Battle Tanks,Armoured Cars, Self-Propelled Guns and Semi-Track" by Peter Chamberlain and Hilary Doyle, there were 3126 Ausf. G produced between Mar 1944 to Apr 1945. Shouldn't the year on the card be 1944 then?

Holy Hanna -- striking my long post on the MkIV. I see we're talking Panthers here. Maybe I oughtta try reading for once!

-Pete

[joshbaumgartner]

I just checked the "Encyclopedia Of German Tanks Of World War Two: The Complete Illustrated Dictionary of German Battle Tanks,Armoured Cars, Self-Propelled Guns and Semi-Track" by Peter Chamberlain and Hilary Doyle, there were 3126 Ausf. G produced between Mar 1944 to Apr 1945. Shouldn't the year on the card be 1944 then?

Even the earlier versions, Ausf D and A were not available until 1943. The 1942 year with the Ausf G on the stat card seems to be an error?

Well that's (IMHO) the bible of German tank data. I also treasure my copy as the reference for hard-core data lookups like that. A little shy on the analysis and histories, but a great book for numbers. I remember finding it when it was out-of print but I thought I saw it now available new in soft-cover...could be mistaken though.

I agree, there wasn't a Panther to be seen prior to mid-43. In fact I believe that the introduction of the Panther to the battlefield was one of the hold-ups in launching the Kursk attack (and hence maybe the Pz.V did more for the Russians than the Germans in that one). Remember that the Panther was a response to the shocking revelation of the T-34 after the invasion, and so 1942 would be far too early to have it in the field.

Chamberlain gives very good production dates (down to the month is about all any of us needs), but remember it took a couple months for the first production examples to actually make it into the hands of front-line units in numbers.

Josh

[AllGoodGecko]

I know that the first ever spotting of a Panther of any sort by the Strathcona's was in 1944 so I also think the 42 is either a typo or waaaaay too general a date.

[Andras]

One book I have says the prototype Panther wasn't completed until Sept '42. I don't see anyway they could have been fielded in combat in '42. The first production model (-A) came off the line 2 months later, that's November 42. The first comabt deployment was the Sumer '43 offensive in Russia. The -G model was built from March of '44.

Panther-A= '43
Panther-G= '44

[joshbaumgartner]

It would be fair to allow the G model from Summer of 1943 on in my apinion, due to the fact that the changes between A/D/G models may not really be significant enough to show up within the granularity of the AAM statistics. So even though it is technically a G, I don't think it would require any monkeying to allow its play in a Kursk reenactment, for example. I believe the main differences were in the areas of reliability and mechanics, things that improved its chances of getting to the battle more than what it did when there, being as the gun and armor were similar--at least not enough difference to change the stats.

[Stealth]

NewtonCain said:
I own a copy of that out of print book. A very, very nice reference.

I'm pretty sure it is still in print. At least Amazon says you can still buy it new for $19.95 and it ships in 24 hours.

I can strongly recommend both it and 'British and American Tanks of World War II' by CHamberlain and Ellis.

I see there is what appears to be a similar book on Soviet Tanks 'Russian Tanks of World War II: Stalins Armored might' by Tim Bean and Will Fowler. Does anyone have any experiance with this book?

Bob Smart (bsmart@monocacy.com)

I picked it up new from Amazon, and its a very nice, comprehensive read not only on the tanks themselves, but the prelude to WWII with the various '5-year plans' that built up the tank forces.

-Stealth

[AllGoodGecko]

actually the early Panthers were very different in one major way- they had a 'shot trap' that would deflect incoming rounds down into the hull making for a much 'easier' kill- by the G it was corrected but an A would prolly need some sort of rule to be accurate lol

[DocD]

The tank known as the Panther was first rolled off the production line in November 1942.
The first model was initially known as the Ausf A although this was later changed to Ausf D. Further development followed the Ausf D, the next model being called Ausf A instead of the Ausf E.
So technically, AH is right as far as the Panther appearing in 1942.

[Andras]

The G model, however, had revised front armor and stronger side armor. Therefore, a '42 version would have to have weaker armor. A '42 date also ignores the time needed to build an effective combat formation, which doesn't happen the moment the first tank rolls off the production line. If fact, the planned Spring offensive for '43 was delayed until summer so that the Panther formations available would be combat effective.

[Akela152]

I know that the first ever spotting of a Panther of any sort by the Strathcona's was in 1944 so I also think the 42 is either a typo or waaaaay too general a date.

I complitely agree with you. Both the M3 and M4 are in 1942... i know that the american weren't at war before that but still... what about the brit's who hat the m3 in the desert...

[joshbaumgartner]

"So technically, AH is right as far as the Panther appearing in 1942."

Perhaps as a combination of exagerration and technicality. Becasue first prototype is completed in November '42 doesn't make it appropriate to include in 1942 scenarios.

Andras is right, the first time a Panther saw the enemy was in the Battle of Kursk in the summer of 1943 (as stated that offensive was delayed for reasons including the desire to employ the first Panther.) Andras is also correct in noting the differences in armor design for the G vs. the D/A. Aware of this, I don't think the difference warrants an adjustment of the defense stat for the Panther one way or the other. You can get into all kinds of vagaries talking about exactly how good Panther armor was at different times, because while the design improved, the workmanship became less reliable. I've seen some great pics of a Panther turret tested on by a 75mm or 76mm Allied gun (I think it was a 17-Pdr). multiple rounds hit the side of the turret and did not penetrate, but due to faulty materials, cracks developed (not at the points of impact either) and the side caved in. The armor was thick enough to defeat the rounds, but the structure failed...just proof its not all down to the mm of RHA equivalent when it comes to defense.

[Thunderanger]

Again according to the Encyclopedia of German Tanks of WW2, here are the various versions of the Panther and their production period. No mention of a 1942 availability. I also listed a few things which may/may not make slight impact on stat for AAM if AH choose to make different version of the Panther in the game.

Ausf D: 850 Produced from Jan to Sept 1943 (The 1st of these issued in Feb 43')

Ausf A: 2000 Produced from Aug 43' to May 44' (Yes, Ausf A was the 2nd series, not 1st)
------ Front turret armor increased from 100 to 110mm, potential weak points in turret armor were removed: ammo loading hatch, and side pistol port.

Ausf G: 3126 Produced from Mar 44' to Apr 45'
------ Side hull armor increased from 40 to 50mm, driver vision port removed to increase strength, 3mm armored ammo bin installed. In Sept 44', a proportion of the turrets came with a gun mantlet which had the under curve eliminated to avoid downward deflection of hits through the hull roof armor.

[DocD]

"So technically, AH is right as far as the Panther appearing in 1942."

Perhaps as a combination of exagerration and technicality. Becasue first prototype is completed in November '42 doesn't make it appropriate to include in 1942 scenarios.

Andras is right, the first time a Panther saw the enemy was in the Battle of Kursk in the summer of 1943 (as stated that offensive was delayed for reasons including the desire to employ the first Panther.) Andras is also correct in noting the differences in armor design for the G vs. the D/A. Aware of this, I don't think the difference warrants an adjustment of the defense stat for the Panther one way or the other. You can get into all kinds of vagaries talking about exactly how good Panther armor was at different times, because while the design improved, the workmanship became less reliable. I've seen some great pics of a Panther turret tested on by a 75mm or 76mm Allied gun (I think it was a 17-Pdr). multiple rounds hit the side of the turret and did not penetrate, but due to faulty materials, cracks developed (not at the points of impact either) and the side caved in. The armor was thick enough to defeat the rounds, but the structure failed...just proof its not all down to the mm of RHA equivalent when it comes to defense.
Hey, doc isn't necessarily arguring against you guys. I just stated that their was a Panther model in 1942 rolling around. Do I believe this is the same model they have in the game? No way.

The year on the card should read 1944.

[Pete G]

I complitely agree with you. Both the M3 and M4 are in 1942... i know that the american weren't at war before that but still... what about the brit's who hat the m3 in the desert...

Yep. Can't model some pivotal Operation Crusader battles in late '41 without the Yank "Honeys." The M4 showed up in late '42, just in time for Second Alamein.

-Pete

[joshbaumgartner]

Hey, doc isn't necessarily arguring against you guys. I just stated that their was a Panther model in 1942 rolling around. Do I believe this is the same model they have in the game? No way.

The year on the card should read 1944.

Don't worry, I guess its not necessarily an argument at all...lol. You are of course correct.

As for the M3 Grant lend-lease tanks that were in use before the Americans got into the fighting, simply state the matter in the scenario notes/rules; that the Brits can use the M3 Grant in said scenario.