BAR Gunner SA. What do you think?

[MEX10MM]

The new US BAR Gunner has a special ability called "Covering Fire" (or something close to that) that prevents an enemy soldier attacked by the BAR to attack during that same turn.
As I understand this SA the BAR must only attack, not even "Hit" it´s target for the SA to work. So now you can charge a MG. without it shooting back. :eek:
I Guess Initiative will be very, and I mean very, important on the Assault phase.
What do you think? :confused:

[Cypher09]

As broken as the BAR seems the Brummbar and Sniper are going to make his life real short.

[Athanasius]

The new US BAR Gunner has a special ability called "Covering Fire" (or something close to that) that prevents an enemy soldier attacked by the BAR to attack during that same turn.
As I understand this SA the BAR must only attack, not even "Hit" it´s target for the SA to work. So now you can charge a MG. without it shooting back. :eek:
I Guess Initiative will be very, and I mean very, important on the Assault phase.
What do you think? :confused:

Well, I'll just have to waste him with a sniper, just sit in cover at long range. I'll wait and see just how effective this unit [BAR] turns out to be. Meta game situations usually work themselves out within a couple weeks of folks getting their hands on the offending units; "Neccessity is the mother of invention." I'm sure the Axis will develop a response. One situation that did not work itself out however, was the artillery debacle in Mechwarrior. I haven't been keeping a close eye on Set II stats; are the Axis getting anything close to Humber? This could be a solution...

[Andras]

a machinegun unit can shoot the BAR gunner at 5-8 hexes without having to worry about Covering Fire.

[Athanasius]

Now that I think about it, I'm not really scared. He'll just be the first target, rather than my mortars, which I would rather use anyways.

[MEX10MM]

I do not belive the SA is "Broken". Just that new tactics will be needed to counter this SA and this boards are the best place to talk about them. :)

[PatrickWR]

Mex, there's a fairly interesting thread from a few days ago about the BAR Gunner...it's kind of a knee-jerk ***** session (no offense to anyone, I myself chimed in on the thread) but Bob from WOTC stopped by with a good summation of the BAR Gunner's usefulness. I quote from him:

"As was pointed out previously, to make the BAR function properly three things have to happen;

1) You have to win initiative.

2) You have to choose to move & attack first.

3) Your BAR has to be at short or medium range from its target

There is a #4, but your opponent controls when it happens

4) Your opponent wins initiative and has you move first.

All things being equal, #1 will happen roughly 50% of the time. The second factor will be determined by the situation (as will #3 & #4). Will you always want to move first just to make the most of a 4 pt unit? Will your opponent want to always move first to deny you the use of that one SA? These aren't questions you can really answer until you are playing your opponent, see the map layout, see what army they are playing...etc. What it does is create situations where your decision on whether you want to move first requires you (and your opponent) to consider more factors."

Here's the thread if you'd like to browse it.
http://boards.avalonhill.com/showthread.php?t=7117

[MEX10MM]

Thank you Patrick:
Note to self: check threads before posting. :o

[Y2UAsk]

Meta game situations usually work themselves out within a couple weeks of folks getting their hands on the offending units; "Neccessity is the mother of invention." I'm sure the Axis will develop a response.
People new to collectible games may not yet understand that every time a new expansion is released, the game you've been playing, to one extent or another, becomes a different game. New pieces, new special abilities, new tactics, new combos all need to be explored and analysed. It's what keeps a collectible game constantly fresh and challenging. Even ASL, which isn't collectible, is driven by expansions. They just aren't randomized.

Steve

[Sgt Barker]

New pieces, new special abilities, new tactics, new combos all need to be explored and analysed. It's what keeps a collectible game constantly fresh and challenging.

Hopefully WotC will break this paradigm by making the game play itself so dynamic that there will cease to be a need to new "special abilities" to keep the game fresh.

Even ASL, which isn't collectible, is driven by expansions. They just aren't randomized.

Sorry, this isn't true. There haven't been any significant new special abilities, combos, synergies, whatever you want to call them, in over a decade in ASL.

ASL *is* scenario driven, but that's a very different thing.

The abilities of and tactics used by your reinforced PzG company, for example, do *not* change with each scenario. So a new expansion, if we use that word for the new scenario packs that come out, has nothing in common with the dynamics of a collectable game.

[Cypher09]

I do not belive the SA is "Broken". Just that new tactics will be needed to counter this SA and this boards are the best place to talk about them. :)

OK broken is the wrong word to use but using the scale listing from the advanced rule book a single solider stand represents a "few" solders. So with the BAR model it could be a few solders with BARs or a couple of Garand armed infantry with a BAR as support. And each hex represents 100 meters. So at 400 meters the BAR gets to pin a group of enemy soliders so they can't return fire at all without actually hitting them, plus there is no consideration for cover. Its seems like a good idea that good a little over zealous in the design. In my opinion the SA should have only have effect with in close range 0-1 hex. A BAR with a 20 round clip can't put enough accurate fire on a enemy unit at 300 to 400 meters to complete nullify it. I guess its just to unrealistic for my taste. Plus as a 4 point Common its too much.

[ops32]

OK broken is the wrong word to use but using the scale listing from the advanced rule book a single solider stand represents a "few" solders. So with the BAR model it could be a few solders with BARs or a couple of Garand armed infantry with a BAR as support. And each hex represents 100 meters. So at 400 meters the BAR gets to pin a group of enemy soliders so they can't return fire at all without actually hitting them, plus there is no consideration for cover. Its seems like a good idea that good a little over zealous in the design. In my opinion the SA should have only have effect with in close range 0-1 hex. A BAR with a 20 round clip can't put enough accurate fire on a enemy unit at 300 to 400 meters to complete nullify it. I guess its just to unrealistic for my taste. Plus as a 4 point Common its too much.

This game isn't meant to be a literal interpretation of weapons and their effects. It's a simplified game that uses historical units to give it the flavor of WW2 combat. The designers could just have easily given that SA to the machinegun teams or mortars or artillery. If you will just accept the game as-is I think you'll enjoy it more.

[Y2UAsk]

The abilities of and tactics used by your reinforced PzG company, for example, do *not* change with each scenario. So a new expansion, if we use that word for the new scenario packs that come out, has nothing in common with the dynamics of a collectable game.
Admittedly, I haven't really kept up with new developments in ASL since it was taken over by MMP. Before then, though, it was driven by expansions, each of which contained new units, new rules, and new maps (often with new terrain) that you needed to become familiar with through play. It's not a perfect metaphor, but the similarity is there, IMO.

Steve

[Cypher09]

This game isn't meant to be a literal interpretation of weapons and their effects. It's a simplified game that uses historical units to give it the flavor of WW2 combat. The designers could just have easily given that SA to the machinegun teams or mortars or artillery. If you will just accept the game as-is I think you'll enjoy it more.

Its quite obvious that A&A Minis is a beer and pretzels game that's loosely base on WWII. And for what it is its an extremely enjoyable and easy to pickup game. Truth be told I've been playing more A&A minis then Spearhead or Warhammer Ancients lately.

Tho when a mechanic of the game jumps out that is really out of whack something should be said. Since Set II is already set in stone I will have to accept the BAR as is. But by voicing an opinion its possible that the designers will tone down the SAs and focus a little more on reality.

Bottom line is that I plan on being in this for the long haul and I would hate to see the game ruined by hoaky SAs and overly exaggerated weapons.

[NEVjr]

Its quite obvious that A&A Minis is a beer and pretzels game that's loosely base on WWII. And for what it is its an extremely enjoyable and easy to pickup game. Truth be told I've been playing more A&A minis then Spearhead or Warhammer Ancients lately.

Tho when a mechanic of the game jumps out that is really out of whack something should be said. Since Set II is already set in stone I will have to accept the BAR as is. But by voicing an opinion its possible that the designers will tone down the SAs and focus a little more on reality.

Bottom line is that I plan on being in this for the long haul and I would hate to see the game ruined by hoaky SAs and overly exaggerated weapons.
i agree, i would rather see every version of each vehical before we start adding veteran crew and the like, the sherman rhino could have been a sherman firefly, and the ss 4f2 could have been a stug. special abilities should be things like superior armour, no turret, extended range, etc. things that would be too complicated to add to the rules otherwise. none of this "expert ultra super master at lawndarts: disrupt any adjacent enemy units if in clear terrain" crap.

[Autarch]

i agree, i would rather see every version of each vehical before we start adding veteran crew and the like, the sherman rhino could have been a sherman firefly, and the ss 4f2 could have been a stug.

I second that, Set II has already dipped into the well three times to bring us variations of units released in Set I. At this rate, Set VI will be entirely made up of variants. ;)

[357FTG]

I second that, Set II has already dipped into the well three times to bring us variations of units released in Set I. At this rate, Set VI will be entirely made up of variants. ;)

There were 20+ variants to the German half-track, so of course we are going to be getting a load of variants. As my cousin snotily pointed out, its not like MTG where you can make up anything. There were a finite (limited number, for those living in Rio Linda) number of units used in WWII. Adding the extra abilities adds to the variety of the game.

[NEVjr]

There were 20+ variants to the German half-track, so of course we are going to be getting a load of variants. As my cousin snotily pointed out, its not like MTG where you can make up anything. There were a finite (limited number, for those living in Rio Linda) number of units used in WWII. Adding the extra abilities adds to the variety of the game.
finite granted, but there are alot more then 53 vehicals in ww2, we dont need to be adding veteran crew etc yet

[2ndSS-Kampfgrupe Peiper]

Look! The BAR isn't all that great. Use snipers or MG's on it, and boom one dead BAR unit.

[Tannhauser]

We're definitely going to see variants as more and more sets come out. After all, how many different Panzers were there? How many different Shermans (including lend-lease)?

[2ndSS-Kampfgrupe Peiper]

If you will just accept the game as-is I think you'll enjoy it more.

Seriously! If you would just play and not worry about all the details it would be funner. If you play DDM then your not questioning a mages magic missile ability.

[Cypher09]

Look! The BAR isn't all that great. Use snipers or MG's on it, and boom one dead BAR unit.

That's not the point. The fact of the matter is the BAR is fires 20 Full Size Rifle Rounds fully automatic at a distance of 400 meters in to an area that's roughly 100 square meters at a "few" solders in defencive terrain. And the enemy is automatically shocked to the point that they cant return fire. The weapon is just not that effective. If it was at a range of 0-1 I wouldn't really have a problem with it.

Even tho the BAR can be easily countered its still setting a precedent to the designers that SAs that deify logic let alone psychics are what the fan base of this game want.

I for one don't and that's why I'm voicing my opinion.</rant>

[2ndSS-Kampfgrupe Peiper]

That's not the point. The fact of the matter is the BAR is fires 20 Full Size Rifle Rounds fully automatic at a distance of 400 meters in to an area that's roughly 100 square meters at a "few" solders in defencive terrain. And the enemy is automatically shocked to the point that they cant return fire. The weapon is just not that effective. If it was at a range of 0-1 I wouldn't really have a problem with it.

Even tho the BAR can be easily countered its still setting a precedent to the designers that SAs that deify logic let alone psychics are what the fan base of this game want.

I for one don't and that's why I'm voicing my opinion.</rant>

Ok. Well I am 12, and don't really care a whole lot about the history of the BAR. So I'm perfectly fine with its SA. I mean more abilities makes the game funner. They should have given a MG that ability though.

[fifleche]

Look! The BAR isn't all that great. Use snipers or MG's on it, and boom one dead BAR unit.Ppl aren't complaining that the BAR is too powerful, just that it's silly!

[Frogslayer]

Ppl aren't complaining that the BAR is too powerful, just that it's silly!

Exactly. Especially since fire is supposed to be simultanious, it´s kind of wierd that they can pin the oponents.

But, really, it´s not broken. It will however make garand rifle obsolete.

Since it wont really dominate the game (as a cetrain meduim tank does), I wont´t really care.

[Tannhauser]

It will however make garand rifle obsolete.

I disagree. The M1 is still better at medium range. The BAR's special ability only comes into play if you assault first.

And, I wonder, how many people are really objecting to the special ability itself, or just the fact that the special ability is given to the BAR?

[Muenchausen]

It seems to me that the more ridiculious SA's get the more gamers are going to be pushed into one of two factions. Either playing to win or playing historical games. If you play historical then you would be limited on the number of BAR's in your army as opposed to playing to win, you would have as many as you could afford. Anb if your playing to win then your right, the M1 Garands have probably become obsolete.

[Thunderanger]

I disagree. The M1 is still better at medium range. The BAR's special ability only comes into play if you assault first.

And, I wonder, how many people are really objecting to the special ability itself, or just the fact that the special ability is given to the BAR?
For me, I think it's the fact that this SA is given to the BAR and the cost of the BAR with this SA (or the implied cost of the SA itself).

I can see that this SA is given to a medium/heavy MG which can sustain a long burst at high rpms, and with a proper cost.

[Type-A]

Either playing to win or playing historical games.
The beauty and the challenge of AAM.

I found that if my game group has problems with some of the SAs its usually fairly universal and can easily be mitgated with some simple house rules; many of which are articulated on this board.

[PatrickWR]

I disagree. The M1 is still better at medium range. The BAR's special ability only comes into play if you assault first.

And, I wonder, how many people are really objecting to the special ability itself, or just the fact that the special ability is given to the BAR?

I would be COMPLETELY fine with this SA being given to an American .50 cal mounted machine gun at around 8 points. Very appropriate, and you pay for it as well. As it is, my group will be houseruling the BAR gunner to require at least one hit scored (minimum disruption) to make the Covering Fire SA come into play.

[Aries]

I better deployment of this SA may have been with the MGs (Vickers, MG42, etc...) since suppressive fire is their speciality. Perhaps you could have linked the Double shot and Suppressive fire SAs so that you choose to use one or the other but not both. So you could try to take out multiple targets or lay down fire on one to keep their heads down.

Making them mutually exclusive would also keep the point cost down.

[Cypher09]

I would be COMPLETELY fine with this SA being given to an American .50 cal mounted machine gun at around 8 points. Very appropriate, and you pay for it as well. As it is, my group will be houseruling the BAR gunner to require at least one hit scored (minimum disruption) to make the Covering Fire SA come into play.

I agree that the Covering Fire SA as written would be acceptable on a .50 cal. Even on the BAR the SA could be used if it were toned down to 0-1 range and at least score a hit or two to take effect.

[fifleche]

I would be COMPLETELY fine with this SA being given to an American .50 cal mounted machine gun at around 8 points.MG-42's... Quickest-firing MG in the war.

[PatrickWR]

MG-42's... Quickest-firing MG in the war.

I suggested it for a .50 cal as a way to differentiate that gun from the MG-42...double-shot is a perfect ability for the German gun, and I didn't want the American MG to be just a Vickers clone.
You are correct...in a perfect world, the MG-42 would have Double Shot and Covering Fire! And it would be 15 points or so... :p

[Bobsalt]

Its quite obvious that A&A Minis is a beer and pretzels game that's loosely base on WWII. And for what it is its an extremely enjoyable and easy to pickup game. Truth be told I've been playing more A&A minis then Spearhead or Warhammer Ancients lately.

Tho when a mechanic of the game jumps out that is really out of whack something should be said. Since Set II is already set in stone I will have to accept the BAR as is. But by voicing an opinion its possible that the designers will tone down the SAs and focus a little more on reality.

Bottom line is that I plan on being in this for the long haul and I would hate to see the game ruined by hoaky SAs and overly exaggerated weapons.

These are my feelings as well. I don’t demand strict realism – who wants to look up the penetration factor of a 57mm AP round, then check the slope and thickness of the armor, then cross reference that with the angle of incidence chart...I had enough Trig and Calculus in school. But I think the SA’s really need to be toned down, and I’m hoping that we’ve seen the “high tide” of the outrageous stuff.

That's not the point. The fact of the matter is the BAR is fires 20 Full Size Rifle Rounds fully automatic at a distance of 400 meters in to an area that's roughly 100 square meters at a "few" solders in defencive terrain. And the enemy is automatically shocked to the point that they cant return fire. The weapon is just not that effective. If it was at a range of 0-1 I wouldn't really have a problem with it.

Even tho the BAR can be easily countered its still setting a precedent to the designers that SAs that deify logic let alone psychics are what the fan base of this game want.

I for one don't and that's why I'm voicing my opinion.</rant>

This is my argument as well. How do you justify giving a BAR an ability like this when you don’t give it to an MG 42 with a ROF of 1200 rounds per minute?

Ppl aren't complaining that the BAR is too powerful, just that it's silly!

Silly is a good word. I don’t see this as broken, just unrealistic. If this SA had been attached to a Vickers or MG 42 with the caveat that you must at least disrupt the unit you’re firing on, I wouldn’t have given it a second thought.

It seems to me that the more ridiculious SA's get the more gamers are going to be pushed into one of two factions. Either playing to win or playing historical games. If you play historical then you would be limited on the number of BAR's in your army as opposed to playing to win, you would have as many as you could afford. Anb if your playing to win then your right, the M1 Garands have probably become obsolete.

I think several of the SA’s in Set II have already guaranteed that certain units will never see the light of day in official play. I think it’s going to be very interesting to see tournament builds and results at the next big convention after Set II is out.

I would be COMPLETELY fine with this SA being given to an American .50 cal mounted machine gun at around 8 points. Very appropriate, and you pay for it as well. As it is, my group will be houseruling the BAR gunner to require at least one hit scored (minimum disruption) to make the Covering Fire SA come into play.

This is what I was planning to adopt as well.

[gandalf23]

Covering fire was one of the jobs of the BAR. It was the M249 (SAW) of it's day. The BAR gunner was prone or behind a wall or something, using the bipod, covering the advance of the rest of his unit. They kept the enemy units otherwise occupied while the riflemen advanced to take them out.

I don't know about y'all, but when I have 30-06 headed my way, I tend to duck down behind whatever cover I can find and stay there. :)

[fifleche]

Covering fire was one of the jobs of the BAR. It was the M249 (SAW) of it's day. The BAR gunner was prone or behind a wall or something, using the bipod, covering the advance of the rest of his unit. They kept the enemy units otherwise occupied while the riflemen advanced to take them out.

I don't know about y'all, but when I have 30-06 headed my way, I tend to duck down behind whatever cover I can find and stay there. :)It was also the job of the MG-42, and the Vickers. 'cept those two could pump about 20 times the ammo that the BAR can send my way. Who cares if it's 30-06 when you only have a 20-rounds magazine? Remember, a turn is a minute, and in that interval, the MG-42 will send towards you 1200 bullets!!! :eek:

And as for staying down, yes, I would too, but I guess the wait would be much less than a minute if there was 20 bullets VS 1200... ;)

[Tannhauser]

It was also the job of the MG-42, and the Vickers. 'cept those two could pump about 20 times the ammo that the BAR can send my way. Who cares if it's 30-06 when you only have a 20-rounds magazine? Remember, a turn is a minute, and in that interval, the MG-42 will send towards you 1200 bullets!!! :eek:

20 or 1200, it's not the bullet with your name on it you should be worried about; it's the one addressed "to whom it may concern" you need to watch out for. :D

[gandalf23]

It was also the job of the MG-42, and the Vickers. 'cept those two could pump about 20 times the ammo that the BAR can send my way. Who cares if it's 30-06 when you only have a 20-rounds magazine? Remember, a turn is a minute, and in that interval, the MG-42 will send towards you 1200 bullets!!! :eek:

And as for staying down, yes, I would too, but I guess the wait would be much less than a minute if there was 20 bullets VS 1200... ;)

umm...no.

The rate of fire of a MG-42 is 1200 rounds per minute, but that is not how many they actually shot in a minute.* The barrel would melt and the gun would destroy itself if you tried that.

They used 50, 100, or 200 round belts. So the most you'd have is 200, but even that, in one minute, is too much for the barrel to handle. Good machinegunners try and shoot 3-5 round bursts. BLip-Blip-Blip. With an air cooled machinegun, you have to stop and let the air cool it. Otherwise, it frys. You never just hold down the trigger and spray and pray. Well, maybe if you're in a D-Day type situation, but even then, if you overheat or otherwise ruin your gun, what good is it. Let's say 5 round bursts, every other second, that's...150 rounds in a minute. But that would require a belt change, which can be slow on an MG, so let's say 100 rounds a minute would be good.

I supose that if the Vickers were water cooled, then it could fire a full 100 or 200 round belt, but the water cooled Vickers weighs waaaaaay more than the aircooled and would be much much harder to lug around. No running forward 200 yards and firing with it. You'd need a lorry/truck/jeep ot move it.

The BAR is cooled down a bit when you change the magazines, so it is possible to fire it as fast as you can. While I have never fired a BAR in full auto, I do know that I can fire 120 rounds out of my AR15 (semi-auto) in about a minute, so let's say you could get 80 rounds out of BAR in the same time. That's only four mag changes.

It was also the job of the MG-42, and the Vickers. 'cept those two could pump about 20 times the ammo that the BAR can send my way.

Ah, but try walking forward and firing either an MG42 or Vickers. You can not. **

You can, however, walk forward firing a BAR. You can even run while firing, although accuracy goes waaaay down then.

Besides, even if the MG42 did shoot 1200 rounds in a minute, unless the tripod is used <i>and</i> it's weighed down with over a hundred pounds (I think it was closer to two that we found was neccessary), then after the first few rounds the recoil will tilt it back and you'll be shooting well above the advancing infanty's heads. This is first hand experiance from firing a schoolmate's MG42. When there was not enough weight on it, it moved back two feet or more with a burst, and if the feet of the tripod were not on large "coasters" to spread the weight out then the rear feet would sink into the ground, thus raising the front.

Anyway, I'm just saying the BAR SA sounds alright to me. A couple of guys firing their BARs at me as fast as they can would keep me hugging the ground.

-gandalf23


* For example, the Thompson fires at 600 rpm. What this means is that if you held down the trigger it would fire it's 30 round magazine in 3 seconds. It does not mean that it could actually physically shoot 600 rounds in one minute. (btw if you ever get a chance to fire a full auto Thompson, take it! They are a hoot!)

** My gaming group is thinking about adding a rule that MGs can not fire if they moved that turn, to account for the setup an MG needs. Deploying tripods, lugging up ammo boxes, digging in, etc..

[Dr.Cornelius]

One way to solve the BAR issue is to restrict the Covering Fire SA to range 0-1. I don't think the developers/playtesters realize how the BAR+Halftrack combo distorts the metagame. Keep an eye out for my post...

[Thunderanger]

It was also the job of the MG-42, and the Vickers. 'cept those two could pump about 20 times the ammo that the BAR can send my way. Who cares if it's 30-06 when you only have a 20-rounds magazine? Remember, a turn is a minute, and in that interval, the MG-42 will send towards you 1200 bullets!!! :eek:

And as for staying down, yes, I would too, but I guess the wait would be much less than a minute if there was 20 bullets VS 1200... ;)

To be fair, the BAR gunner can change clips a few times within a min also and thus it can fire more than 20 bullets in a minute.

However, according to this page:
http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/browning.htm
it takes an average of 6-8 secs to change clip. So I think it make sense that the BAR's target can shoot back in that 6 seconds, which is likely to happen a few times in a one minute interval. Therefore the Covering Fire SA seems inappropriate for the BAR.

[ManimalX]

Thanks for the great response, gandalf. Most of the people whining about the BAR don't know dip about how it functions in RL.

I also like how every time a new and decent ability comes out in a game expansion, the playtesters automatically didn't know what they were doing/made a mistake/etc.

Let the SA see meta for a bit. Then it will be just another good SA among many :) Remember, the dev team knows the WHOLE picture of what is coming out and how X will interact with Y. Kind of like people getting mad at God when something seemingly 'bad' happens, only to find out that it works out for good in the whole scheme of things.

[Thunderanger]

To be fair, the BAR gunner can change clips a few times within a min also and thus it can fire more than 20 bullets in a minute.

However, according to this page:
http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/browning.htm
it takes an average of 6-8 secs to change clip. So I think it make sense that the BAR's target can shoot back in that 6 seconds, which is likely to happen a few times in a one minute interval. Therefore the Covering Fire SA seems inappropriate for the BAR.

I would like to add that, while it's true that one can't really sustain 1 minute non-stop burst with most Heavy/Medium MGs, however, the fact that they are belt-fed with up to a 250 round belts (in the case of MG42 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG42), you can zero in your target, and keep firing a short burst whenever your target tries to pop his head up.

While in the case of BAR, with only a 20 round clip, you will need to change clip after a few burst. That's when your target can return fire.

I can see that BAR was used to provide effective covering fire back in the war, but I think it was probably used in a much shorter time frame then the 1 minute time-scale of AAM. For example, when your fellow rifleman is make a dash across a street, which will probably take under 10 secs, then yes BAR can provide good covering fire on it's own.

However, let me try to be a two-headed serpent... if the BAR in AAM is representing several bar gunners, then it may make sense.

But then we still should give the MG the same SA with the restriction that, as someone else pointed out, a MG can only choose to use either Covering Fire or Doubleshot each turn.

[fifleche]

Anyway, I'm just saying the BAR SA sounds alright to me. A couple of guys firing their BARs at me as fast as they can would keep me hugging the ground.Gandalf32, while I appreciate your technical knowledge, and can't hope in my dreams to compose something to counter you (well, not at work anyways :rolleyes: )I think you forgot one crucial thing
: we are talking about a game. A game in which a couple of guys at 400m have 100% chance to supress an ennemy unit (Platoon? Squad? Couple of guys...) even if they are behind/in cover, while the MG-42 unit in front of them (2-3 guns, ne?) would have like 50% chances to disrupt you, but could ALWAYS return fire...

Like I said, it's not that I consider the BAR to be a useless weapon (I did say I would stay down!) it's just I find it's SA to be out of whack with what was considered the "best MG of the war"...

Food for tought.

Oh, and BTW, the MG-42 had a quick-change barrel. Took something like 15 secs to change, if memory serves. So yes, full-auto spread, not 5-rounds potshots.

[Thunderanger]

...

Oh, and BTW, the MG-42 had a quick-change barrel. Took something like 15 secs to change, if memory serves. So yes, full-auto spread, not 5-rounds potshots.

According to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG42
Changes parts: barrel in 8 to 12 seconds :)