Brummbar Build Ideas?

[Thunderanger]

The Brummbar seems to be an indispensible unit for a GE army. With a mere cost of 22, it has 7/4 defense and great Anti-Inf stats.

You can easily field 2 in a 100 pt game as long as you are not using the Tiger or Jagdpanther also.

You can use them kind of as a protection screen around your main battle tank(s) (e.g. 1 SS PzIVF2, and 3 Brummbars) with its high def and also keep the shermans at med range from your PzIV2.

I think this build may have a good chance against the 4xSherman, 2xHumbar build. But may run into problem with other builds.

Anyone else has any ideas of build using the Brummbar also?

[Frogslayer]

I think it might be good in pak-40 armies, for anti-infantry defence. Aslo, against poor playing oponents, you might use it as a bait. They see their chance to mova against and fire at it without really risking anything (this turn). The next turn you advance infantry/move AT-guns or tanks or whatever, using the advantage of the oponents now misplaced armors.

However, I think it would be very bad to field them vs sherman rush. The reason is that they cant kill shermans, even at close range they need a rear shot, which will never happen due to "no turret" and less speed. Sooner or later the shermans will flank and kill them.

[Lynx7725]

Uhm.. well, I tried to put one together. Two PAK-40s, one Bear, 2 MG42s, 1 HSF, 4 SS PzGr.

Don't quite like it, very little AT firepower. Still trying to figure it out.

[Frogslayer]

Try dropping a MG and 2 SSPG (97-20=77) the add 1 pak´40, a panzerfaust 30, and a blackskirt.

[Lynx7725]

3 PAKs? Err.. honestly would prefer if I can squeeze a tank in there, but the only one available is a (relatively tiny) Panzer III. Ah well, have to work on it.

[Dr.Cornelius]

The net effect of the Brumbär is to discourage the allies from playing any infantry at all. Given the Sherman's overall performance for 21 points I do not see any reason why an allied player would bother with infantry other than "trick" units like Bazooka / Flamethrower + Jeep or BAR + Halftrack or Paratroopers.

Also note that by not taking any infantry, the allied player renders useless the points spent by the opposing player on anti-infantry units. Brumbär, SiG33, MG 42 and others do nothing to the Sherman/KV-1 Swarm.

It is too bad really, but the Sherman, KV-1 and Croc discourage combined arms play.

[fifleche]

Right now, German armies will try fielding a tank (Brummbar) to attack infantry and infantry (soldier-arty Pak38-40) to attack tanks. All the while the Allies possess the *wonderful* M4A1 that can do both, albeit at a lower cost and with better speed.

*SIGH*

[Dr.Cornelius]

Right. The Germans have very few multipurpose units. Wehrmacht Sniper was a nice try, but unfortunately the Veteran Rhino is immune...

[Gunslinger]

here's one:
1 Bear - 22 pts
1 SS-Panzer IV - 32 pts
1 HsF - 7 pts
4 SSPG - 5x4= 20 pts
3 Panzerfaust - 5x3= 15 pts
1 Blackshirt - 4 pts

The Bear and the soldiers provide anti - infantry
The SS Panzer IV and Panzerfausts give anti tank.
This might work well.

[Dr.Cornelius]

Gunslinger- here's the problem with your build: the Brumbär is essentially 22 wasted points if your opponent takes an all-armor build. In my experience, there is no way for a German player to penalize an allied player for not taking any infantry.

In extensive playtesting in preparation for Gen Con So Cal, my playgroup determined that by far the strongest Set I build is Crocodile supported by tanks. The Sherman Rush is also very strong but cannot challenge a Croc.

Gen Con So Cal Winner (variations on this theme are also strong)
35 Crocodile
42 Sherman x2
15 Stuart
07 Red Devil Captain
99 points

One of the strongest non-Croc builds is Sherman/Stuart:
63 Sherman x3
30 Stuart x2
07 Red Devil Captain

The KV-1 is also strong:
32 KV-1
42 Sherman x2
15 Stuart
04 Bazooka
07 Red Devil Captain

[crash beedo]

Interesting stuff Doc, yeah it seems a little bleak for the Axis. The versatility of the Allied armor gives the Germans a tough choice.

What did your group consider the better Axis builds out of the current crop of figures? Assuming the Croc and Sherman builds are Tier 1, what would be Tier 1.5 Axis? Anything different from the following two builds? (Which are basically flavors of the same type).

Tiger I
Panzerfaust x 2
Hauptsturmfuhrer x 1
SS-Panzergrenadier x 4

Panzer IV x 2
Panzerfaust x 2
Hauptsturmfuhrer x 1
SS-Panzergrenadier x 4
Mauser x 1

We don't have a tourney scene rolling yet, so while we do play competitive builds, its always Axis vs Allies (no Croc vs Croc action going on). Just curious if you've found anything better for taking on allied armor.

[Gunslinger]

Gunslinger- here's the problem with your build: the Brumbär is essentially 22 wasted points if your opponent takes an all-armor build. In my experience, there is no way for a German player to penalize an allied player for not taking any infantry.



It may not be as useful, but it can negate cover, which is somewhat nice.
The goal of my idea was to be balanced. You know, just in case someone thinks to be original and doesn't go all armor.

[Modern Major-General]

Yeah, I went up against two Shermans and a Croc against my two Pnz IVs and infantry squad. Got wiped out but did take out the two Shermans.

The Croc is nasty when turn 7 rolls around. You have to throw something adjacent to the objective hex and the Croc will just flame it away.

Edit to add:

And it is not so much the Croc's abilities as it is the low, low cost of 35 points. This lets you add Shermans and Stuarts to make for a very effective 100 point army. The Croc should have cost 50-60 points like the other 7/6 defense, superior armor 2 tanks: Easy Eight and Tiger. But then I am not one of the designers, so maybe I do not know what I am talking about.

[Dr.Cornelius]

IMHO the Croc is worth at least 45 points in the context of Set I. With Set II added to the mix, who knows.

Crash- I extensively playtested Tiger+infantry, Dual Pz IV and even all infantry armies against Sherman Rush and Croc+Sherman armies. The Germans can defeat the Sherman Rush with skill, a decent map and some luck. On the other hand, none can lay a glove on the Croc except on the Tiger Heaven Map.

The Croc's supporting 2x Sherman and 1x Stuart are an even match for 2x Panzer IV while the Croc avoids LOS and moves to the objective. Eventually the German infantry is flamed off one by one, even if the Croc is disrupted. The big problem is that the Croc's 7 front armor is a 17% shot for an adjacent Panzerfaust and even its 6 rear armor is a 50/50 shot for a Panzerfaust in the same hex. It is very, very difficult to destroy a Croc in a 60 minute timed tournament game, and the Croc generally wins on points.

Note that I did not try highly unbalanced builds like 2x Pz IV and 6x Panzerfaust, reasoning that these armies would auto-lose to any army with much infantry.

The Tiger has a decent chance to disrupt/destroy the Croc if it ever gets a shot. But as a practical matter, on most maps the Croc can simply move in both the move & assault phases to avoid being in the Tiger's LOS. There is not much that the German player can do to avoid the Croc simply circling the objective, then forcing the Tiger to move adjacent on turn 7. At that point the Croc has a 37% chance to auto-kill the Tiger, while the Tiger can at most damage the Croc. Next turn the Croc gets another 37% flamethrower shot.

The best solution I could come up with for the axis against the Croc is Tiger + 2x Carro Armato. The Carros Armatos are mediocre tanks, but they threaten the Croc's Sherman bodyguards and have a slight chance at close range against the Croc's rear armor.

Ironically I ended up facing both other Axis armies at Gen Con So Cal. I only faced one Croc, and as luck would have it my Tiger was taken out by a 9.6% shot from a Marine Flamethrower.

My guess is that the Croc will be strong but not dominant in the Set II environment.

On the Axis side the Panzer IIIF is an improvement over the Carro Armato, and the PAK 40 is an excellent area-denial piece to keep the Croc from avoiding LOS. Unfortunately, the allies have a near-perfect counter to AT Guns (keep watching for my post). If you are willing to go non-historical, the Japanese Ho-Ni tank destroyer is an excellent 12 point counter to the Sherman. Just squint your eyes and pretend its a Marder.

On the Russian side, look to the Guards T-34/85 to lead the way. It has enough armor to stand up to Shermans, a big punch to knock out a Croc and is cheap enough to fit two in 100 points. Just don't get me going on how the 32 point SS-Panzer IV is supposed to compete with the 33 point Guards tank...

A couple of observations on the AAM game design:
Tanks with high rear armor values are essentially immune to all but specialized anti-tank infantry. I can see an argument being made that a Sherman army cannot hold the objective against SS-PG or M1 Garands from turns 7 to 10, at least in an untimed match. But the Croc, Tiger and Russian tanks are all but immune to infantry close assault. The developers would have done better to include a third armor value against infantry close assault, and limit it to about 5 to encourage combined arms builds.

One way to increase the relative utility of infantry without changing the game would be to increase the stacking limit from two to three units per hex. It is a seemingly small change, but I think it would give the game a needed tip toward infantry.

In the meantime, I'm still going to field infantry and a Brumbär and hope for the best.

[Gunslinger]

Just a note:
Assuming average die rolls, the Croc, at close vs. a vehicle, has a somewhat slim chance of getting the three 6's. Other than than small chance, it's just a sherman with high defense and half the speed, in terms of anti vehicle power.

Still assuming perfect odds, the flamethrower is even less likely against infantry, and it is far worse than the Sherman at longer ranges.

What I think makes it so good is that it will survive to close range more often than a sherman, hopefully, and therefore do more damage. The rest is hoping for that 13th die (with perfectly average odds on the rest) to come up 6.

[crash beedo]

Wow, solid analysis Doc, thanks. It seems a bit unusual for WOTC to put out a game that has such an uber-build and no great counters. Didn't Crocs dominate at Gen Con during the summer, too? In tournament play at least, makes me wonder if some kind of janky jeep/engineer combo needs to be carried just to knock out the Croc. I really haven't played much with jeepzookas or anything like that - seems fragile and desperate.

For Set II, that Romanian Grenadier with the Angriff Oberleutenant is looking better. I like the Ho Ni too.

[crash beedo]

Doc pointed out the problem with the Croc - it can mosey on up to the Objective and park. Typical German builds (using Panzerfausts and SS-PGs) will have a real tough time getting it off the objective, while it keeps flaming anyone that gets close. Its not too hard to keep out of line of site of a back-row Tiger. The claustrophobic quality of many of the maps feed into the Crocs strength.

We haven't done a ton of tournament type testing, but it sure sounds tough to me.

[Dr.Cornelius]

Just a note:
Assuming average die rolls, the Croc, at close vs. a vehicle, has a somewhat slim chance of getting the three 6's. Other than than small chance...In fact the Croc has a 37% chance to flame an adjacent vehicle and a 23% chance against a soldier. Note that it is very difficult to put three hits on a Croc in one turn, so the Croc is likely to get in another 37% shot. Probability of a kill after two 37% shots is 60%.

It seems a bit unusual for WOTC to put out a game that has such an uber-build and no great counters. It is my understanding that the first 100 or so minis were developed and playtested together then released as Sets I & II. It is possible that the Croc is not dominant in the Set II environment.

It is also possible that the playtesters, although experienced, were from the Axis & Allies and Risk tradition and not grognards with years of challenging tactical wargames under their belts.

The reality is most of us on the boards thought we were buying a light tactical wargame with relatively simple rules and some historical basis, but WotC was producing a more fantasy or kid-oriented game along the lines of the highly successful D&D and Star Wars minis lines...

[Modern Major-General]

Croc - flamethrower + 7/6 defense + low 35 point cost.

I am not saying WOTC needs to do anything about the unit, maybe they don't and maybe we will find out how things work with Set II. But if they did change something, what could it be? Raise the point cost perhaps.

How about changing how the Flamethrower ability works. Something I thought about and not too drastic as it still keeps its punch. Instead of rolling three 6s to destroy immediately, just have it so the unit when the rolls enough successes vs a enemy unit (Soldier or Vehicle) to damage it, the unit is immediately destroyed. Or is it more likely for the Croc with 13 dice against Vehicles at close range to roll enough successes to damage a vehicle with 5-7 defense and Superior Armor than it is to roll three 6s?

[Redgar]

Hi all,

Has anyone tried putting a Jagdpanther or Nash + filler against a Croc band? If the Shermans have to stay in cover or get wasted and the Croc is slow enough to (possibly) take a couple of Extend Range shots, seems to my (very limited) opinion that such a band might have a shot against this band.

Granted, it WILL lose to infantry bands (unless the cheap PzIIF and Carros can take hold them off), but how many of these bands have we seen? (I think one digit worth from GenCon SoCal?)

Ideally, the Croc will get crushed by the Jagds every time and the Jagds will get slaughtered by infantry, so it will become too risky to play either and people will focus on a more combined strategy... but that's just my pipe dream!

Just my 2 ep worth,

Redgar

[crash beedo]

Set II is offering a lot of anti-armor for the Axis - you've got the overpowered Wehrmacht sniper, Oberleutnenant, the Romanian, the Ho Ni, the Pak 40, and the Nashorn.

Unfortunately a strong anti-armor build won't stand up to a very strong Allied infantry build like a horde of Screaming Eagles.

So it appears the Allied players have the "initiative" by being able to choose strong, balanced builds that the Axis is forced to counter. If Screaming Eagles are real popular, go with the Brummbar; otherwise focus on anti-armor. German infantry with the Brummbar seems to offer a modicum of balance against both types of builds.

Another thing is whether they continue to move towards longer and more wide open maps that favor longer range.

[Athanasius]

And then we mow down the Allies' infantry with machine guns, seems simple enough to me.

[Modern Major-General]

Have you been paying attention? Did you read the bottom of the first page of this thread? The gross Allied builds do not use soldiers other than a Red Devil Captain for the initiative +2.

[Raptor]

A good role for the brumbar is as blocker, objective taker, and bait paired with german high cost tanks. The bait role is to draw the shermans out of cover (previously the carro was the favored unit for this, but nuch less likely to survive). As a blocker it moves to keep other units from getting to point blank or flanking your high cost unit. As an objective taker it has good armor to survive and the firepower to kill the infantry commonly used to hold the objective (similar to the allie's crocodile) .

[fifleche]

Set II is offering a lot of anti-armor for the Axis - you've got the overpowered Wehrmacht sniper, Oberleutnenant, the Romanian, the Ho Ni, the Pak 40, and the Nashorn.I dissagree. Yes, the WSniper is good, but overpowered? It disrupts instantly a vehicle, but does not add a hit to a tank... Essentially, apart from the instant -1Def, it doesn't help destroy the vehicle... And with the Rhino on-stage, the WSniper is even less useful.

[crash beedo]

I dissagree. Yes, the WSniper is good, but overpowered? It disrupts instantly a vehicle, but does not add a hit to a tank... Essentially, apart from the instant -1Def, it doesn't help destroy the vehicle... And with the Rhino on-stage, the WSniper is even less useful.

I don't think the WSniper is broken, but it is somewhat overpowered. Figure that his presence probably will dissuade people from playing big tanks like the Easy 8 or IS-2. (Personally, I would just play some paratroopers along with the big tank as a counter to the sniper; they're good for other uses if no snipers are showing up).

But to hear tell on the boards, people are saying the sniper gives them even more reason to play the Rhino. The sniper is mediocre vs the Sherman swarm or Rhino swarm, but game-breaking against a single big tank - freezing the big tank in place for two turns and knocking down the defense is huge. Since its weak in some matches, game-breaking in others, maybe the sniper averages out to be mediocre? ;)