Transport ability for USSR tanks

[dark_melancholy]

Some of the Russian tanks (the T34 and KV-I from set I at least) have the Transport 1 ability. Those infantry guys obviously can't fit inside the tank now, can they? So, did Soviet troops ride on the roofs of their tanks? Sounds dangerous... I hope this isn't another nonsense special ability...

[SSG_Huble]

Actually, much in the same manner as did U.S. Troops on Shermans, as well as in many cases in more modern times, Soldiers would pile onboard the space behind the turret, just over the engine housing and "hitch a ride". Loud and not particularly comfortable,...but a heck of a lot better than walking 25 km.

[Aries]

Like this....

[fenyan]

I believe some of the T34s were outfitted with handlebars for the troops to hold on to. Later in the war the Germans also used tank-riders. But the Soviets were the first to employ this tactic as a doctrine. By mid-1943, Soviet Tank Brigades had a tank-rider company in each brigade.

[Aries]

You are correct, I did a T34 model for my father-in-law a few years ago and there were handles along both sides and the turret.

[Y2UAsk]

Soviet troops frequently rode on tanks, for two chief reasons --

1. The Red Army was chronically short of transport vehicles, so this was a way to increase mobility;

2. It supplemented their shock effect when infantry could leap off of tanks to assault enemy troops in close concert with tanks. Some have argued (and I tend to agree) that the real genius displayed by German arms in WW2 was defensive, not offensive. They perfected the science of rapid-displacement defense in depth. To break through that type of defense before mobile reserves could be brought in to plug gaps and counterattack, the Soviets developed simple, brute-force methods that relied on mass and speed.

If you're willing to accept the vulnerability and casualties this sort of transport makes inevitable, it does have advantages -- it reliably puts your infantry at the hot spots right away, and it shortens road columns, which is important when you're breaking through an enemy line and almost guaranteed to be attacked from the flank.

Steve

[Y2UAsk]

Happily for Soviet players, this type of transport doesn't have its chief disadvantage in AAM -- the riders aren't vulnerable to artillery and small arms fire as they approach the objective. They're actually safer hanging onto the outside of a tank than they would be if riding inside a halftrack. So it's a great SA in AAM.

Steve

[Stojakovic]

Thanks to that ability I won most of my games with the Russians by transporting soldiers :cool:

[PatrickWR]

Personally I love the ability -- it's very balanced and historical. I'm also very pleased that it's more or less restricted to Soviet tanks...adds quite a bit of character to my army.

When it was just Set 1, I usually carted around a Flamethrower on my T-34s and KV-1s. Now that Set 2 is about to hit, I'll probably toss the FT in favor of PPSh soldiers and Cossack Captains...more characterful.

[Patton4014]

Soviet troops frequently rode on tanks, for two chief reasons --

1. The Red Army was chronically short of transport vehicles, so this was a way to increase mobility;

2. It supplemented their shock effect when infantry could leap off of tanks to assault enemy troops in close concert with tanks. Some have argued (and I tend to agree) that the real genius displayed by German arms in WW2 was defensive, not offensive. They perfected the science of rapid-displacement defense in depth. To break through that type of defense before mobile reserves could be brought in to plug gaps and counterattack, the Soviets developed simple, brute-force methods that relied on mass and speed.

If you're willing to accept the vulnerability and casualties this sort of transport makes inevitable, it does have advantages -- it reliably puts your infantry at the hot spots right away, and it shortens road columns, which is important when you're breaking through an enemy line and almost guaranteed to be attacked from the flank.

Steve
The Soviets were very much in need of transport.

I can't remember the number but I believe that the U.S. provided something along the lines of 70% of their trucks/halftracks for the war (might be higher). Also, tanks are much better all terrain than trucks. And with the USSR's cronic lack of any kind of regular road system this was a big advantage.

The other factor in having the soldiers ride the tanks as Steve points out is that they are at the point of attack. The Soviets would later take this doctorine and use it to develop the BMP-1 and 2. These were the first truely integrated AFVs to be used by any army in the world.

[Cypher09]

The Soviets really need a specialized Tankodeseantniki type unit w/ the Mechanized Tactics SA the German Panzergrenadier have from Set II to really take advantage of the transport ability of the KV-1 and T34/76.

[CdtWeasel]

The tankrider units were typically armed with PPsH's so giving that type of unit a mechanized tactics ability would fit in the game nicely.

[tomster]

Happily for Soviet players, this type of transport doesn't have its chief disadvantage in AAM -- the riders aren't vulnerable to artillery and small arms fire as they approach the objective. They're actually safer hanging onto the outside of a tank than they would be if riding inside a halftrack. So it's a great SA in AAM.

Steve
yes this rule needs to be changed ASAP, tank riders should be for all countries and should be esayer to destroy.

[Type-A]

Happily for Soviet players, this type of transport doesn't have its chief disadvantage in AAM -- the riders aren't vulnerable to artillery and small arms fire as they approach the objective. They're actually safer hanging onto the outside of a tank than they would be if riding inside a halftrack. So it's a great SA in AAM.
Honestly this is the problem I have with it. That the riders get armor protection; as opposed to riding in a halftrack. I know, simple game, simple rule.... just a pet peeve.

[PatrickWR]

Honestly this is the problem I have with it. That the riders get armor protection; as opposed to riding in a halftrack. I know, simple game, simple rule.... just a pet peeve.

It's a little more abstract than that. Remember, tanks don't have armor ratings, they have Defense Values. That takes into account their speed, silhouette, armor, and other factors. It's perfectly alright to allow tankriders to take advantage of that. If tanks are charging into a thinly-held line of infantry, I highly doubt those enemy infantry will be trying to take opportunistic potshots at a few soldiers riding on the tanks. "Bigger fish to fry" comes to mind. :D

[Type-A]

I'm thinking armor has alot to do with why a T34 has a better defensive rating than the 251

Potshots? How about spraying the tank or bombardment, since you can't affect the tank you might at least want to kill the little guys on top.

[Y2UAsk]

Or make them jump off and take cover.

Steve

[Dr.Cornelius]

The Soviets really need a specialized Tankodeseantniki type unit w/ the Mechanized Tactics SA the German Panzergrenadier have from Set II to really take advantage of the transport ability of the KV-1 and T34/76.How exactly is the Mechanized Tactics special ability useful?

Mechanized Tactics: At the end of your movement phase, this unit can dismount from a unit with Transport.

Since Soldiers can start the game loaded on Transport, I fail to see the advantage. I suppose it allows a soldier to be picked up, transported and dismount in the same turn, but I think that scenario is highly unlikely- especially with a tank transport.

[PatrickWR]

Or make them jump off and take cover.

Steve

Actually, since AAM is fairly abstract, it can be easily envisioned that tankriders not only ride on top of the tank, but also drop prone and hunker down next to it when being shot at, only to mount up again once the firefight is over. I don't want to start another "infantry should get cover next to tanks" debate, I'm just trying to help people justify this special ability. :D

[Type-A]

I don't want to start another "infantry should get cover next to tanks" debate, I'm just trying to help people justify this special ability. :D
Neither do I. Like I said it was a pet peeve, but now that I've talked about it I feel better.

[Cypher09]

How exactly is the Mechanized Tactics special ability useful?

Mechanized Tactics: At the end of your movement phase, this unit can dismount from a unit with Transport.

Since Soldiers can start the game loaded on Transport, I fail to see the advantage. I suppose it allows a soldier to be picked up, transported and dismount in the same turn, but I think that scenario is highly unlikely- especially with a tank transport.

Right since he can dismount in the same phase he was picked up in he can shoot in the assault phase. Instead of waiting till the next turn to dismount and fire.

[fifleche]

Right since he can dismount in the same phase he was picked up in he can shoot in the assault phase. Instead of waiting till the next turn to dismount and fire.Uhhh. Panzergrenadiers can do that... On the only transport available to Germany... Sdkfz251... Which has "fighting platform" SA...

:confused:

[Thunderanger]

Right since he can dismount in the same phase he was picked up in he can shoot in the assault phase. Instead of waiting till the next turn to dismount and fire.

I would also like to point out (the obvious) that the Russian tanks with Transport ability doesn't have the Fighting Platform ability also. This makes the Mechanized Tactics SA on the Russian Inf important.

If the Russian tanks also have Fighting Platform, it would be very powerful (but unrealistic).

[Dr.Cornelius]

I would also like to point out (the obvious) that the Russian tanks with Transport ability doesn't have the Fighting Platform ability also. This makes the Mechanized Tactics SA on the Russian Inf important. Acutally, Mechanized Tactics is pointless since the Russian infantry will generally start loaded on tanks anyway. The only advantage that Mechanized Tactics brings is the ability to load & unload in the same turn, which in my experience is not very useful.

[Thunderanger]

Uhhh. Panzergrenadiers can do that... On the only transport available to Germany... Sdkfz251... Which has "fighting platform" SA...

:confused:
But the 251 only has 2/2 defense. In some situation, it's better for the Pzgdr to dismount at the end of movement phase, to take advantage of the 4/4 defense and defensive terrain for cover.

I think you can also potentially stop the 251 behind a single hex depth defensive terrain (or just at the corner of a batch of defensive terrain), then let the Pzgdr to dismount on the defensive terrain, this way the 251 is out of LOS from the enermy and yet the Pzgdr can fire from the cover.

[Dr.Cornelius]

I think you can also potentially stop the 251 behind a single hex depth defensive terrain (or just at the corner of a batch of defensive terrain), then let the Pzgdr to dismount on the defensive terrain, this way the 251 is out of LOS from the enermy and yet the Pzgdr can fire from the cover.Are we playing the same game? Around here a dismounting Soldier ends up in the same hex as the Transport unit, not an adjacent hex.

I suppose if you moved second you could move the 251 behind LOS blocking terrain and dismount the soldier in the movement phase, then move the soldier into cover terrain in the assault phase after your opponent has fired. But from a practical standpoint this does not accomplish much.

The prinicpal advantage of the 251 is that it allows an infantry unit to fire on other infantry units while being practically invulnerable to return fire unless the opponent has anti-tank capability. Here is the the ideal execution:

1. Destroy the opponent's tanks with your tanks.
2. Destroy the opponent's infantry anti-tank capability (Bazooka, AT Gun) with an assault Gun (SiG33 or Brumbär) or long range MG attack.
3. Move a SdKfz 251 to about 2 hexes away (prevent close assault) and disrupt opposing infantry.
4. Dismount and mop up.

[5thGurkha]

Responding to Patton4014, when the Soviet army entered Berlin in 1945 2/3 of all vehicles were US made (needless to say not the tanks). In addition, the Russian soldiers were wearing uniforms and boots made in the USA. The majority of this material came in through Vladivostok not the more familar Atlantic convoys into Archangel and Murmansk. The curious thing is that the Japanes never attempted to interdict these convoys much to the detriment of the Axis powers. I cannot recall the author I got this info from but I can easily find it if interested.

[Thunderanger]

Are we playing the same game? Around here a dismounting Soldier ends up in the same hex as the Transport unit, not an adjacent hex.

I suppose if you moved second you could move the 251 behind LOS blocking terrain and dismount the soldier in the movement phase, then move the soldier into cover terrain in the assault phase after your opponent has fired. But from a practical standpoint this does not accomplish much.

The prinicpal advantage of the 251 is that it allows an infantry unit to fire on other infantry units while being practically invulnerable to return fire unless the opponent has anti-tank capability. Here is the the ideal execution:

1. Destroy the opponent's tanks with your tanks.
2. Destroy the opponent's infantry anti-tank capability (Bazooka, AT Gun) with an assault Gun (SiG33 or Brumbär) or long range MG attack.
3. Move a SdKfz 251 to about 2 hexes away (prevent close assault) and disrupt opposing infantry.
4. Dismount and mop up.

You are right, got confused with the rules when dismounting in a fully stacked hex, and your opponent will decide which adjacent hex you can dismount anyways.

On the other hand, although you can have inf mounted at the beginning of game, but if you have more inf then transports, you may need to move back and forth to transport your inf forwards.

Or maybe you are in the middle of a battle, and you want to move your Russian tank with Transport and an inf to another location. Being able to pickup an inf, move to your destination, and drop it off in one turn saves time. Your Russian tank then pretty much constantly have an inf sidekick, which can follow the tank around without much penalty.