Tournament Point Value Increase?

[Redgar]

Hi all,

An interesting parallel that's been buzzing around my mind is DDM's tournament format: IIRC Harbinger (the first set) was 100 pt; after ~the third set (Archfiends) when they had us hooked and had a good variety of figures they raised the official format 200 points, due in part to more expensive figures. This was, I think, widely seen as a "good thing", since fewer but more expensive/powerful figures were seen in play. The major difference in the games (besides the obvious subject matter) is the figure limit; becuase movement alternates and casualties aren't simultanious "filler" bands became a problem, so the maximum unit count was reduced.

Perhaps this game might increase the Tourny point limit for similar reasons: with a 15 unit limit, there doesn't have to be an increase in the average cost of units, but rather armies (Germans in particular) can afford to include some high-cost specialty (or even just high-cost) units. 200/15 is 13.333 (a decent total), plus are 9 Shermans + SE Commander as effective as a Jagdpanther, Tiger, PzIV x2 (x1g, x1 F) Sniper (for the commander ;)) and Hampsterfurher?

So, my end purpose is 2-fold:

1. Find out both in the poll and in the thread what my fellow community members think this possible/likely/"good thing"? (I can guess the anwer to this last, but should there be differences of opinion I would like to try and have a nice, clean discussion, if you please :rolleyes:)

2. What do the official folks have to say on this possibility?

Anyway, just my 2 ep worth,

Redgar

[NewtonCain]

Increased points to 150 or 200 is a good Idea. Currently in MN I run 2 events a month. One 100pter and one 200pter. What 200pters need is a Larger map. Either custom or 6 or 8 standard maps. 4 maps in 200pts becomes too crowded and hurts the Germans even more. An increase in objective hexes (1 to 3) is also needed (2 out of 3 wins).

15 units is more than enough. But what I've found in 200pt allied armies is that they become "Armor" engagements rather than "balanced" forces.
Axis armies can actually field 2-3 good tanks w/ support :) .

The time limit also needs to be increased for larger battles (1.5hrs seems to work good for 200pts).

[Autarch]

And don't forget rewritting the tourney rules to reflect the games victory conditions.

[Redgar]

Hi all,

I,too, prefer bigger boards, but it seems to me that the designers have (presumably) playtested having 30 units on the current sized board and deemed it to be a non-issue; not having tried this myself I can't speak from experience, but I feel (hope) that a raise in point cost would lead to expensive units being used, rather than more cheap swarms (the sherman swarm is currently effective because, I feel, opponents can't gamble just on AT and taking one big unit drastically reduces the number of models in your force. My Tiger bands are way smaller than the current piece limit; an extra 100 points would enable my to double my band (or experiment with higher-priced alternatives to current multiple support pieces), which leads to a better overall mix, I feel.

I'm not sure if this is a response or a ramble; just wanted to throw it out there and see what people make of it! :p

Just my 2 ep worth,

Redgar

[XAos]

150pts would be better than 200pts.
With 200pts you can't use many infantry units in a 15 unit force. They cost too little.
And don't forget rewritting the tourney rules to reflect the games victory conditions.
That gets my vote for the top priority change to the DCI floor rules.
Currently the tie-break conditions are functionally the reverse of the games victory conditions. Did whoever wrote these ever play aam.?
Or were they deliberatly trying to reward stalling. :mad:

[Pasalades]

200pts at a 30 unit limit would work well. With the proportionatly higher unit ceiling, allied all-armoured builds (8-9 shermans + ancillaries) would be at a serious disadvantage to a combined arms build that could field a numerically superior infantry force (that could CA the shermans) supported by a few AFVs and AT guns.

[Darth Nazi]

I was talking with several people over the weekend at SoCal and the majority of them said that if they were to increase it 150 would be the target number that should be finalized on. This number starts to balance the playing field for the Axis side and not having to totally rewrite the rules for the maximum figures allowed onto the playing field.

The added bonus is you can start using the German (Meatball) tanks along side plenty of support troops and other vehicles.

The reason I was told that a 200pt limit wouldn't be feasable is that first off it's just going to be mostly 2 (100pt) teams with alittle switch. Second yes you run into your gonna have to replace infantry with vehicles because of the 15 figure rule.

I honestly have been playtesting 150pt and 200pt teams already with acouple buddies and we all agreed that 150 was the best.

That's my take on this matter..

[XAos]

200pts at a 30 unit limit would work well.
The problem with 30 units is it will (nearly) double the game length. Which is OK for a friendly game but untenable for a long tournament.

[crash beedo]

150 points, with 15 units, and slightly bigger maps, would take care of a lot of balance issues, without increasing the length of the game, either. That would be a good shift in advance of Set III.

200 points and 30 units just doubles the game length.

[Pasalades]

150 points, with 15 units, and slightly bigger maps, would take care of a lot of balance issues, without increasing the length of the game, either. That would be a good shift in advance of Set III.

200 points and 30 units just doubles the game length.

I personally don't mind the longer game. It's a lot of fun. However, I understand what you mean about it's feasability tournament setting. In that case the 150pt limit would work best. Has anyone tried the 150pt with a 20 unit cap?

[fifleche]

The more you increase the points in the tournament format, the less the basic 3-pts infantry will see use. They were, however, the most frequent units on real-world WWII battlefields...

[Tim.Vaillemans]

We play currently with 4 players (2x2) together/Co-op with each player controlling his 100pt(200pt/team) and that rocks.
150pt???
Better then 100pt, surely when playing with the germans. No more "my only little tanky 'tigerI' going Pffffttt round2 due to Bad luck/Dice"
200pt better for co-ops/+1h tournaments because I think that 200pt will not make it on little larger field in 1h

My 2€cents

Tim

[Jaels]

Put me in the camp of those in favor of a 150 points, 15-20 units game with slightly bigger maps (or at the very least reduced starting position for vehicles). That way you can use the bigger units, although it reduces the usefulness of the 3 point infantry figure...

200 points would make for a game a tad too long for my enjoyment, especially in tournament settings.

[Hiro]

I like 150 points on a 3x3 map. We have done this a lot and it seems to work out well. When we played 100 points on a 2x2 map, it seemed it was very difficult to win as axis, no matter what. Now with 150 points and a 3x3 map, there is plenty of manuever room and it let's you still throw in a bunch of infantry. In 200 point games we saw a lot of tanks with little infantry support. 150 seems to have a good balance of both vehicles and infantry. I do like playing all infantry 100 point battles. If they increase the point total I think a 20 unit limit would fit well, because it would let you throw in some of the cheaper infantry pieces. We have played about 100 some games in that format and it works very well. Maybe it is just our group but I am happy to read that some others have tried the same.

[darq_steel]

Where i use to play sometimes we do team matches; 150 points (75 each player) without going over 15 units by army, it is fun.

[Iron Warrior]

I think if the point cap is increased to 150 then the unit cap should be rasied as well. 20 units would be reasonable without increaseing the game time too much and still give infantry heavy armies a chance. Although I still feel shorted that I'm not allowed to feild swarms of arisakas as Japan did. Personally I wish the unit cap was 20 with 100 points.

[XAos]

Although I still feel shorted that I'm not allowed to feild swarms of arisakas as Japan did. Personally I wish the unit cap was 20 with 100 points.
Me too, I love playing Arisaka swarms. And the only advantage the Japanse army had was their logistical-"Tail" was a lot lighter than their enemies so they could deploy larger formations in terrain everyone else considered virtually impassable.
I suspect if A/H switch to a 20 unit limit then tournaments should increase to 1 hour & 15 mins per round.