Reworded Attack Procedure

[Lynx7725]

I've always had problems with the way the attack procedure is worded in the rulebook on pg. 16 -- it stressed more on counters than on the concept of hits, which is an important concept. As a result I've been playing things wrong until recently. The following is how I think would be a better wording of the same rules:

Rolling an Attack
To attack with a unit, roll a number of dice equal to that unit's attack value against the target. Each die that comes up 4 or higher is a success.

Disrupted and Damaged Attackers: If the attacking unit is disrupted or damaged, it suffers a -1 penalty on attack rolls. Only 5s and 6s count as successes. If the attack is both disrupted and damaged, the penalty is still only -1.

Successes: compare the number of successes you score to the target's defense. If you roll fewer success than your target's defense, you miss.
If you roll successes equal to your target's defense, you score one (1) hit.
If you roll successes higher than your target's defense, you score two (2) hits.
If you roll successes equal to or greater than twice your target's defense, you score (3) hits.

(NOTE: Up to this point there are no changes.)

Keep track of the number of hits scored over the entire assault phase. Hits can be scored on a single unit by multiple attackers, and these are tallied together.

Hits: At the end of the assault phase, tally up the number of hits scored on a target for the whole phase. For targets with any hits scored against it in total, place a face-down Disrupted counter for the unit.
(Note: This means targets with only 1 hit will only have a face-down Disrupted counter.)
For targets that are Soldiers and have 2 hits in total, place an additional face-down Destroyed counter for the unit.
For targets that are Vehicles and have 2 hits in total, place an additional face-down Damaged counter for the unit.
For targets that have 3 or more hits in total, place an additional face-down Destroyed counter for the unit.
I realised that the re-write appears to be minor, but at least to me it's clearer that the hits tally up over the entire phase. My major misunderstanding was that hits from one attack do not stack with hits from another attack, which made units a tad tougher. The revision above is intended to clear this up -- hopefully, it's correct. :D

Comments?

[Kriegshund]

Hits: At the end of the assault phase, tally up the number of hits scored on a target for the whole phase. For targets with only 1 hit in total, place a face-down Disrupted counter for the unit.
For targets that are Soldiers and have 2 hits in total, place a face-down Destroyed counter for the unit.
For targets that are Vehicles and have 2 hits in total, place a face-down Damaged counter for the unit. For targets that have 3 or more hits in total, place a face-down Destroyed counter for the unit.
I realised that the re-write appears to be minor, but at least to me it's clearer that the hits tally up over the entire phase. My major misunderstanding was that hits from one attack do not stack with hits from another attack, which made units a tad tougher. The revision above is intended to clear this up -- hopefully, it's correct. :D

Comments?

The statement in bold is incorrect. A vehicle that has suffered two hits will receive both a disrupted counter and a damaged counter. In the casualty phase both of these counters will be turned up. This is important because until the next casualty phase, the unit is indeed disrupted and damaged, and because it is disrupted it can not move (barring any SAs). This is important because a vehicle that is just damaged can continue to move with a speed penalty.

Also on page 16 is the statement: Hits add together this way even if they come from more than one attacker.

[Lynx7725]

The statement in bold is incorrect. A vehicle that has suffered two hits will receive both a disrupted counter and a damaged counter. In the casualty phase both of these counters will be turned up. This is important because until the next casualty phase, the unit is indeed disrupted and damaged, and because it is disrupted it can not move (barring any SAs). This is important because a vehicle that is just damaged can continue to move with a speed penalty.

Also on page 16 is the statement: Hits add together this way even if they come from more than one attacker.
Noted and reworded again to catch this case. I should have thought about this case in all honesty, thanks for the catch!

Yes, when I went through the rules again for this thread, I realise the quoted statement was there. I just never saw it in my read. :(

[SFC ACID]

So please clearify this for me. Say if im attacking a panther with three shermans and they all score one hit, is the panther destroyed?

[Tannhauser]

So please clearify this for me. Say if im attacking a panther with three shermans and they all score one hit, is the panther destroyed?

Did you read Kriegshund's post?
"Also on page 16 is the statement: Hits add together this way even if they come from more than one attacker."

[Tim.Vaillemans]

Hey Guys

Do not forget!!!
If a unit already has a FACE-UP counter and receives AT LEAST new 1 hit, add a NEW DISRUPTION counter to it FACE-DOWN
Ex.
Round 1
Sherman gets 1Hit --> Disruption counter face down, and at the end of the round Face-up. --> Cannot move
Round 2
Sherman gets 1Hit (has now already a face-up disruption counter)
--> gets a new Disruption counter face-down and face up @ the end of the turn (so the face-up gets removed)--> couldn't move this round and cannot move next round
Round 3
Sherman get 2Hits (has only 1 face up disruption counter)
--> new disruption counter AND 1damage counter

Hope this clarifies things, because even tournament-judges/Demo/shopkeepers get these things wrong.

Greetz from Belgium
Tim

[JuKaBaLa]

Two more Rounds to complete the sequence:

Round 4
Sherman gets 1Hit (has now already a face-up disruption counter AND face-up damage counter)
--> gets a new Disruption counter face-down and face up @ the end of the turn (so the face-up gets removed)--> couldn't move this round and cannot move next round again.

Round 5
Sherman get 2Hits
--> new disruption counter AND 1 destroyed counter (has a face-up damaged counter) - ouch!! Finally the Sherman will blow out of table in the casuality phase.

Now I think everything was clarified.

[]´s

[Muenchausen]

So please clearify this for me. Say if im attacking a panther with three shermans and they all score one hit, is the panther destroyed?

YES! The panther is destroyed.

[Falcon_WOG]

:confused:
Can anyone verify that this is the correct way to mark hits?
After re-reading the rules several times the phrase "during your assault phase" kept popping out at me. This seems to make the way you guys are oing it the correct way, but does not specifically say this.

The way we have been playing and the way we were taught at GenCon was that if your unit receives a hit it receives the next higher marker if there is one already present from the previous phase.

Example:
Round 1
Sherman gets hit once. Receives a FD (face down) Disruption marker. End of round. Disrupted Counter is turned FU (face up).

Round 2
Sherman gets hit twice. Receives a FD Damaged & Destroyed Marker. End of round. Sherman is removed after Destroyed marker is turned up.

It does seem to contradict the way the rules are stating it.

I know no one from WotC will probably respond to this before Monday as they are probably still conked from the turkey, but if Bob happens to read the forum before our games tommorrow it would be greatly appreciated.

[Kriegshund]

No, face up counters from any source....be it from a previous phase, defensive fire, or special ability like headshot.....ARE NOT counted with hits from the current phase.

In your example in round two the Sherman would receive a face down distrupted and a face down damaged counter. In the casualty phase the current face up distrupted counter would be removed and the two face down counters turned up. The Sherman would be disrupted and damaged.

The only time a face up counter effects the outcome of the current phase is when a vehicle with a face up damaged counter would receive a second damaged counter, then it gets a destroyed counter instead.

[Tim.Vaillemans]

Indeed Kriegshund,
All in all, the game is suddenly got harder for some players :D

Yes killing a tiger is veryveryvery hard, even a sherman is hard to kill.
Killing a tank needs at least 3 shot in one round, or 2 hits in 2 round
1 hit is not enough, it only holds-down the target

Hoping this improves the Game-play @ events,etc

Tim

[Falcon_WOG]

Thanks Guys

It just seemed too easy to kill a tank and definitely puts a new spin on the scenario I played a couple of weeks ago.

Once again Thanks

[Richter von Manthofen]

I do not like the reworked attack!

It does not take into account cover if you place counters on units only at the end of the attack phase (count the number of hits).

My 2cents

[Comassion]

Oooh, good point. How do you factor cover rolls into your scheme? That, to me, seems easier with the placement of disrupted counters as soon as they occur.

[Lynx7725]

Good point, let me think about it a bit.

[Vulturedoodle]

:confused:
Can anyone verify that this is the correct way to mark hits?
After re-reading the rules several times the phrase "during your assault phase" kept popping out at me. This seems to make the way you guys are oing it the correct way, but does not specifically say this.

The way we have been playing and the way we were taught at GenCon was that if your unit receives a hit it receives the next higher marker if there is one already present from the previous phase.
The answer lies in a careful reading of the rules. The description of Attack Effects on page 20 of the Advanced Rules says:
A vehicle that receives two simultaneous hits during the assault phase gets a face-down Disrupted counter and a face-down Damaged counter.
Soldiers don't receive Damaged counters--two simultaneous hits result in a Destroyed counter instead.
Similar language is used to describe Destroyed counters. The glossary provides the final piece of the puzzle (page 31):
simultaneous hits: All hits from a single attack roll and all hits caused by normal attacks in the assault phase are simultaneous. Hits from defensive fire aren't simultaneous.
Regards,
Steve F.

[Lynx7725]

I do not like the reworked attack!

It does not take into account cover if you place counters on units only at the end of the attack phase (count the number of hits).

My 2cents
Ok, thinking about this brings up an interesting question, which I would pose here:

An undamaged Sherman is rumbling merrily down the map. 2 Panzer IV G spot it and shoot at it. Thankfully, the Sherman is occupying a Forest hex when the attack occured.

The inevitable foregone conclusion of Sherman Armour vs. 75mm Kwk 40 L/43 was rudely interrupted by the appearance of tree trunks in the rounds' path. The Sherman made one cover save, but fails the other. The Sherman, as per normal, gets to shoot back.

The question is -- is the Sherman destroyed at the end of turn? Do the successful cover save reduce the number of hits for that attack to zero but places a face-down Disrupted counter for the attack (although meaningless, as the damaging attack would place a FD Disrupted counter)? This results in a Sherman that is damaged and disrupted, but otherwise fine.

Or do they reduces the saved attack to 1 hit (hence producing the FD Disrupted counter as per cover rules), which when combined with the 2 hits from the Damaging attack, destroys the Sherman at the end of turn?

[Kriegshund]

Lynx7725,

It all depends on the sequence of the events. You didn't really specify the number of hits and timing of the sequence so for simplicity's sake lets say you have one Sherman in a forest hex, and two Panzer IVs shooting. Lets say both Panzers had excellent rolls and each scored 2 Hits. The Sherman makes one successful cover roll. It can go one of two ways...

Scenario One

1) Panzer (A) Shoots at Sherman and scores 2 Hits.

2) Sherman makes a successful cover roll, so the attack is limited to one face down disruption counter (1 Hit).

3) Panzer (B) Shoots at Sherman and scores 2 Hits.

4) Sherman fails cover roll, and places a face down damaged and face down destroyed counter (total of 3 Hits). Sherman will be removed from play in the next casualty phase.

Scenario Two

1) Panzer (A) shoots at Sherman and scorers 2 Hits.

2) Sherman fails it's cover roll, and places a face down disrupted and a face down damaged counter.

3) Panzer (B) shoots at Sherman and scores 2 Hits.

4) Sherman makes a successful cover roll, so the attack is limited to one face down disrupted counter. According to the rules on pg 24, if the unit already has a face down disrupted counter, you do not place another one. Attack is in effect, nullfied. The next casualty phase the Sherman will be disruped and damaged.

Its all in the timing.....

[Oberst Hermann]

In reading the rulebook and clarifications posted by WotC staff I have seen multiple references to cover only affecting the counters, NOT the number of hits. So the number of hit's accumulated in a single phase and from each attack are both important.

[Lynx7725]

Ouch. This complicates things considerably, and sounds odd -- it makes the game much more sequential that it appears to be. Hope you guys don't mind, but I think I'll post over to the rules section and get an official clarification.

[Lynx7725]

In light of Y2Uask's reply (http://boards.avalonhill.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=7286) here, I'll have to rethink this severely. For now, disregard the above.

[Kriegshund]

Lynx7725,

I didn't want to stop you from rewording the attack rules in a fashion that would of perhaps made it easier for you and others to understand. However, I believe the rules as printed on page 16 are the clearest and most logical way to conduct and track the results of an attack. If you redirected your effort to digest them as written, I think you will find they work out quite well.

[Lynx7725]

Therein lies the crux of the matter -- the rules had areas that simply did not make sense to me. Some inconsistencies, a mismatch of perspectives when it came to the rules, etc. Minor things that are minor on their own, but added up to be sufficient to be an irritant.

This attempt wasn't so much a proposal for changes to the rules, but more of a clarification of doubts -- and it worked, because it (at least) showed how cover is intended to interact with the hits system.

[BooMer(FC)]

So, actually in this case you are saying that if I were to have this scenario in game play it would be to my advantage to not make a cover save on the first attack. This seems completely arbitrary and now the game truly does revolve around cover rolls.

Let us play out this scenario even further and say that panzer A shoots at said sherman and scores 2 hits. Sherman makes cover save and a FD disruption counter is placed. Panzer B now shoots and scores 2 hits. Sherman sucessfully makes a cover save so attack is limited to disruption. Since herman already has a FD disruption counter another FD disruption copunter is not placed and one lucky Sherman exits the round with only a disruption after 4 sucessful hits? :confused:

[Kriegshund]

So, actually in this case you are saying that if I were to have this scenario in game play it would be to my advantage to not make a cover save on the first attack. This seems completely arbitrary and now the game truly does revolve around cover rolls.

No, what I am saying is that it is to your advantage to make any and all cover rolls you can. The scenario above is exceptional because you have two units both getting 2 hits. Vehicles only roll cover on a 5 or 6. They will make their cover saves on 1/3 of their rolls.

Let us play out this scenario even further and say that panzer A shoots at said sherman and scores 2 hits. Sherman makes cover save and a FD disruption counter is placed. Panzer B now shoots and scores 2 hits. Sherman sucessfully makes a cover save so attack is limited to disruption. Since herman already has a FD disruption counter another FD disruption copunter is not placed and one lucky Sherman exits the round with only a disruption after 4 sucessful hits? :confused:

Whats the problem with that? You WANT to be in cover to allow yourself the chance to avoid damage and destruction. In all of my games, I use cover whenever and as often as I can. It is a powerful tool, and it SHOULD be. It is perfectly realistic as well. The use of advantageous terrain and superior fighting positions has been either the dominate factor in success or the doom of armies from the very beginning of warfare.

You can't think of it as the hits being successful and then removed, they are simply attacks that didn't penetrate the cover your target is in. If a Sherman manages to get into cover knowing hes about to be attacked by multiple units and manages to roll 5 or 6 successfully multiple times, then good on him....

[Vulturedoodle]

So, actually in this case you are saying that if I were to have this scenario in game play it would be to my advantage to not make a cover save on the first attack. This seems completely arbitrary and now the game truly does revolve around cover rolls.
Only insofar as the game revolves around die rolls (cover being only one form of chance in this game). How is the target making its cover rolls somehow more arbitrary than the attackers making enough successes to cause four hits? In the final analysis, any game with die rolls is arbitrarily chancy.

Some like it, some don't. It's a mechanic. :)

--SEF

[BooMer(FC)]

But wait, according to the rules that Sherman just recieved 2 hits simultaneously therefore it should receive a disrupted and damaged counter.

[Kriegshund]

But wait, according to the rules that Sherman just recieved 2 hits simultaneously therefore it should receive a disrupted and damaged counter.

I don't know what you are trying to get at. The rules clearly cover the procedure to track hits with counters and how the placement of those counters are effected by successful cover rolls.

[BooMer(FC)]

What I am trying to say is this. Is disruption a condition or is it the term that applies to the first success achieved on a die roll that is equal to the attackee's defense? When counting simutaneous hits three successes are equal to a destroyed counter. In the scenarios that were outlined previously the efect of a cover roll is that of negating a "hit" by turning that into a condition of disruption. So according to the rules pg 16 "The first hit counter is a face-down disrupted counter, the scond hit counter recieved by a vehicle is a face-down damaged, the third hit counter is a face down destroyed counter", On pg 20"A vehicle that receives three or more simutaneous hits gets a destroyed counter." So in finality on page 24 Effect of a cover roll:and I qoute"It the opponent succeeds at the cover roll, then the effect of your attack is limited to disruption.If you roll the targets defense or higher, place a facedoun Disrupted counter on the unit. If the unit already has a face-down Disrupted counter, don't place another counter.

I am not trying to be disputiver or combantative over this but there are incongruities with the respect to cover fire that havent been explained. Take this example Panzer IV is in cover, 3 shermans take a shot at it each of the shermans achieve 5 successes against the Panzer. Panzer receives one disrupted one damaged and one destroyed couner correct? Do you make a cover roll for each of the single successes?
in the first scenation the unit recieved 3 hits and was destroyed (after making one cover roll) in the second scenario the unit recieved three hits(after making one cover roll and was damaged). In the third scenario unit receives two hits and is disrupted.
So Is disruption a condition( panicked, pinned down, disoreieted or generally unhappy) or is it the the term used for the first hit a unit receives. I agree with Lynx that there are some inconsistencies with the rules and I only seek clarification of the rules.

Peace Out

[AndrewW]

This is only partly related, but it brings up some confusion I have had with attacks. It seems wrong that for one unit to kill a vehicle by itself in one round it has to score double the enemies armor in hits. So if the defense was 6, it would take 12 successes to kill it outright. But getting 7-11 hits would just make it damaged. Then a small unit could just get 6 successes and now it is dead. Or three units could each hit it once in a round and it is dead. All assuming no cover saves. That just doesn't seem right. It makes it where you would be better off shooting with two or more waker units than one strong one.

[fenway]

But wait, according to the rules that Sherman just recieved 2 hits simultaneously therefore it should receive a disrupted and damaged counter.

Actually, I don't think it received two hits - I think it succeeded in making two cover rolls. As a result, the maximum it can receive is the single disrupted counter.

If you get hit 50 times in a phase, but make 50 cover rolls, the hits aren't really hits, but non-stacking disruptions, if I am reading this right
(Which I certainly may NOT be :) )

The only thing that may seem strange is the fact that a successful cover roll limits damage to a disruption AND NO MORE, so if you are going to miss one cover roll, miss your first and make the others. (as if you had any control over it!! :) )

When getting hit multiple times in a single phase, all cover rolls are not created equal...Not that this is a bad thing, just worth noting for clarity and consistency of play.

[Kriegshund]

What I am trying to say is this. Is disruption a condition or is it the term that applies to the first success achieved on a die roll that is equal to the attackee's defense?

It is both.

It is both a condition and a tracking mechanism, at different times.

During the Assault phase, in it's face down state it signifies the first HIT a unit receives.

In the Casualty phase(or due to defensive fire or SA like Headshot) the counter is turned face up. It now signifies a condition of the unit. Since it is the result of a previous phase or game mechanism that does not signify a hit, it is no longer applicable to hits received in the following assault phase.

When counting simutaneous hits three successes are equal to a destroyed counter. In the scenarios that were outlined previously the efect of a cover roll is that of negating a "hit" by turning that into a condition of disruption.

It doesn't "negate" a hit. A successful cover roll limits the attack to one face down disruption counter. Any hits over 1 hit from a single attack are ignored.

So according to the rules pg 16 "The first hit counter is a face-down disrupted counter, the scond hit counter recieved by a vehicle is a face-down damaged, the third hit counter is a face down destroyed counter", On pg 20"A vehicle that receives three or more simutaneous hits gets a destroyed counter." So in finality on page 24 Effect of a cover roll:and I qoute"It the opponent succeeds at the cover roll, then the effect of your attack is limited to disruption.If you roll the targets defense or higher, place a facedoun Disrupted counter on the unit. If the unit already has a face-down Disrupted counter, don't place another counter.

Yes, yes,......and yes. You have just quoted all the relevant rules that prove out the scenario I posted previously.

I am not trying to be disputiver or combantative over this but there are incongruities with the respect to cover fire that havent been explained. Take this example Panzer IV is in cover, 3 shermans take a shot at it each of the shermans achieve 5 successes against the Panzer. Panzer receives one disrupted one damaged and one destroyed couner correct? Do you make a cover roll for each of the single successes?

No......

You make a cover roll for each attack, in this case 3 separate attacks will result in 3 separate cover rolls. If the Panzer IV in cover makes 3 cover rolls, it comes out of the engagement with a face down disrupted counter. If it makes no cover rolls, it will recieve a face down disrupt, damaged, and destroyed counter, and be removed from the game in the next casualty phase.

So Is disruption a condition( panicked, pinned down, disoreieted or generally unhappy) or is it the the term used for the first hit a unit receives. I agree with Lynx that there are some inconsistencies with the rules and I only seek clarification of the rules.

As I said in its face down state it is a tracking mechanism of the first hit received in the current assault phase. In the casualty phase, face down counters are turned face up and now signify the condition of the unit. It serves an elegant and simple dual purpose. I really don't mean to be snotty here, but the rules are clear and my gaming group has been using them for several dozen games now with great success. Any inconsistancy lies firmly in your misunderstanding of them.

[Vulturedoodle]

What I am trying to say is this. Is disruption a condition or is it the term that applies to the first success achieved on a die roll that is equal to the attackee's defense?
I believe you're trying to analyze it too much. It's more difficult to hit a target which is concealed or behind something. The cover roll is AAM's way of representing this. The designers felt there was a 1/3 chance a shot could hit a tree, a rock, or a shadow instead of the vehicle it was aimed at.

Disruption is a condition. Several things in this game can result in this condition. One of them is a successful cover roll. You might find it more acceptable to roll cover BEFORE the attack; then you'll know that no matter what else the dice say, as long as there are enough successes for at least one hit, the target is disrupted. Do this for each attack.

Regards,
Steve F.

[BooMer(FC)]

Thank you for eliminating all confusion about this issue.

Regards