Use for Panzer II Ausf. C

[Old Pete]

I've played a few Mini games now and I want to talk about the Panzer II Ausf. C. After playing, and also wracking my brain in thought, I can't for the life of me figure out a tactical use for this unit. With an average speed (3), atrocious defense (2/2), terrible attack numbers against vehicles, and not-that-great-numbers against infantry, what is the unit supposed to do? Be cannon fodder? Also, the special abilities of Excellent suspension and Double Shot have been no big deal in game play because of the low attack numbers.
Couple of questions: I guess I'm wondering what the rationale was for creating the unit for the game--what I mean is that of all the units I've seen, if they have bad attack #'s, then they can move far, or carry a unit, etc. The Panzer II, however, has very bad abilities all around with no apparent use. So I am also wondering if anyone has really used this tank to great advantage. I know that in the very last game I played, the Panzer II was a literal joke--it was taken out in such a manner that we actually had to laugh about it.
This phenomenon is curious to me since I thought historically this tank was part of the early devastating Blitzkrieg against Poland in 39'. Or maybe the Panzer II will make a good match against Polish cavalry.
Looking for some thoughts out there.


___________________
"Retreat, Hell, the Federal Army has broken to pieces!" --Old Pete upon receiving orders to withdraw from Centerville

[Lynx7725]

Well, when I was testing my early war build against the French and Brits, it was pretty bad too. Much like what you described. It doesn't even work very well against infantry -- it runs from infantry!

Given that experience, the only thing I bother to send these "tanks" after nowadays is MG nests. It's Double Shot and 6/6/4 gives it a decent chance of killing an MG in a single pass while it's still somewhat (more) survivable against the MG. The MG can damage it, yes, but an AT gun will destroy it before it gets into range to attack.

Even then, I get better mileage from my Sd. Kfz. 222s than these....

[U-Boat]

I have tried so hard to use the Panzer II, but every time it gets in the open it is picked off!

I have stopped fielding it because as you said it is a joke.

Spend your money on MG's units. They may be slow but they give you more bang for your buck.

I guess the Panzer II might be good at shooting horses. (Cavalry)

We will see.



I've played a few Mini games now and I want to talk about the Panzer II Ausf. C. After playing, and also wracking my brain in thought, I can't for the life of me figure out a tactical use for this unit. With an average speed (3), atrocious defense (2/2), terrible attack numbers against vehicles, and not-that-great-numbers against infantry, what is the unit supposed to do? Be cannon fodder? Also, the special abilities of Excellent suspension and Double Shot have been no big deal in game play because of the low attack numbers.
Couple of questions: I guess I'm wondering what the rationale was for creating the unit for the game--what I mean is that of all the units I've seen, if they have bad attack #'s, then they can move far, or carry a unit, etc. The Panzer II, however, has very bad abilities all around with no apparent use. So I am also wondering if anyone has really used this tank to great advantage. I know that in the very last game I played, the Panzer II was a literal joke--it was taken out in such a manner that we actually had to laugh about it.
This phenomenon is curious to me since I thought historically this tank was part of the early devastating Blitzkrieg against Poland in 39'. Or maybe the Panzer II will make a good match against Polish cavalry.
Looking for some thoughts out there.


___________________
"Retreat, Hell, the Federal Army has broken to pieces!" --Old Pete upon receiving orders to withdraw from Centerville

[Count_Ciano]

I'm sure it can be a very fast and powerful tank....if your opponent's army is made up of old men throwing pebbles! :D

[U-Boat]

I'm sure it can be a very fast and powerful tank....if your opponent's army is made up of old men throwing pebbles! :D

LOL!!!

They make lousy paper weights too.

[Count_Ciano]

They make lousy paper weights too.

You mean the actual tanks, right? :p

[Gunslinger]

No, he means the old men and thier pebbles.

[tomster]

I've played a few Mini games now and I want to talk about the Panzer II Ausf. C. After playing, and also wracking my brain in thought, I can't for the life of me figure out a tactical use for this unit. With an average speed (3), atrocious defense (2/2), terrible attack numbers against vehicles, and not-that-great-numbers against infantry, what is the unit supposed to do? Be cannon fodder? Also, the special abilities of Excellent suspension and Double Shot have been no big deal in game play because of the low attack numbers.
Couple of questions: I guess I'm wondering what the rationale was for creating the unit for the game--what I mean is that of all the units I've seen, if they have bad attack #'s, then they can move far, or carry a unit, etc. The Panzer II, however, has very bad abilities all around with no apparent use. So I am also wondering if anyone has really used this tank to great advantage. I know that in the very last game I played, the Panzer II was a literal joke--it was taken out in such a manner that we actually had to laugh about it.
This phenomenon is curious to me since I thought historically this tank was part of the early devastating Blitzkrieg against Poland in 39'. Or maybe the Panzer II will make a good match against Polish cavalry.
Looking for some thoughts out there.


___________________
"Retreat, Hell, the Federal Army has broken to pieces!" --Old Pete upon receiving orders to withdraw from Centerville
yeh its just a historical tank. its was from the early war years 39-40 after that i do not recommend using them.

[fifleche]

As is, crappiest unit EVER. I mean, it could have +1 attack VS inf at all ranges and then it could be useful (tought about the same for hard attack, but 20mm only goes so far against armor, while on antipersonnel it *shines*!

If you play against a mortar-heavy army, or an ATG-heavy army, then perhaps you could use it. Sadly, only Germany & Japan are likely to field those...

[henrym203]

It makes a good paper weight.....oh wait, no it doesnt. It only weights like 4 grams.

I too really wanted it to be a cool unit. Even in early war scenarios it sucks. Use the 222 instead.

[Der Leiter]

yeh its just a historical tank. its was from the early war years 39-40 after that i do not recommend using them.

No it's not even good then. The Renault can just shrug off anything the Panzer II gives it.. while at any range a glancing blow from a Renault destroys the Panzer II... and they're the same points.

I played a 1940 Assault with 4 Panzer IIs and and Mausers for 'fun' vs 2 Renaults. The Renaults just shredded my tanks and I did nothing to them in return.. the Mausers had (and did) a better job at damaging the french tanks.

[Wily D]

When trading, I use "I'll give you a panzer II for it" as a synonym for "I have no interest in that item."

[richyj1]

It does seem like the stats for this unit were an error - when I compare real-world stats of the Panzer II to the Humber, I find they gave the Humber a better frontal defence (3) for the same thickness of armor.

[Der Leiter]

It does seem like the stats for this unit were an error - when I compare real-world stats of the Panzer II to the Humber, I find they gave the Humber a better frontal defence (3) for the same thickness of armor.

Defence could also account for mobility, size, crew quality, etc, to a minor effect which could account for the +1 front defence on the humber.

[PatrickWR]

In my opinion (and this is almost across-the-board from Set 1) no armored fighting vehicle should have been released with Defense 2. It is simply too low to represent the armored plates (yes, of varying thicknesses) that shielded the crew. As far as realism goes, yes I understand that heavy machineguns could occasionally penetrate early war tank armor. For the purposes of our collectible miniatures game, this is NOT FUN and makes certain units unplayable.g

Additionally, I still pray for a mobile 20mm crewed cannon in Set 3. The Panzer II's cannon should SHRED infantry. I hate to invoke cinema, but does everyone remember that scene in Saving Private Ryan, where the 20mm chewed up that squad assaulting the Tiger? Ree-diculous.

My group has house-ruled the Panzer II as follows: Defense 3/3, +1 across the board vs. infantry. Makes for a much more effective little tank.

[NEVjr]

against inf a 20mm is not much better then a 30 cal mg, it has a lower rate of fire, (some 240 rpm, as opposed to 800 for the mg34) and a hole from a 20mm is the same as 4 or 5 holes from a MG.
the 20mm is much better against trucks, atgs, aircraft, etc. something with enough metal to set off the explosive so it starts doing damage

[henrym203]

against inf a 20mm is not much better then a 30 cal mg, it has a lower rate of fire, (some 24 rpm, as opposed to 800 for the mg34) and a hole from a 20mm is the same as 4 or 5 holes from a MG.
the 20mm is much better against trucks, atgs, aircraft, etc. something with enough metal to set off the explosive so it starts doing damage

Using a large calibre against a human is devastating. Someone could survive multiple .30 calibre wounds. A 20mm would make an exit wound big enough to seperate a person in half. From experience I know that just a .50 cal round can make a mess of a deer. AA guns in their nature are high velocity, large calibre and have a high rate of fire. This sort of weapon lends itself to be a perfect suppressor. The large/high velocity round would also negate any sort of soft cover infantry would fashion.

However, there are some down sides to using a AA weapon against infantry. They are bulky, usually need to be towed or mounted on a platform. The ammuntion is heavy, and needed in large quantities...you would need truck loads to keep them supplied. Its also a big target. Small arms fire could damage vital parts or exposed crew members.

[NEVjr]

granted a 20mm will leave a big hole, but the low rate of fire makes it much harder to hit a moving target, it is very possible for running inf to be inbetween rounds

[DocD]

This is interesting. I haven't been able to find anyone willing to trade a Panzer II for anything other than rare.
If it is as useless as you guys say, why is it so hard to find?
And not just here....I found one Internet trader out of stock for them!!

[henrym203]

This is interesting. I haven't been able to find anyone willing to trade a Panzer II for anything other than rare.
If it is as useless as you guys say, why is it so hard to find?
And not just here....I found one Internet trader out of stock for them!!


it is still collectable....granted they dont sell for $15 or more like a Tiger does on ebay

[henrym203]

granted a 20mm will leave a big hole, but the low rate of fire makes it much harder to hit a moving target, it is very possible for running inf to be inbetween rounds

The German Flak 38 was the most widely used 20mm gun. This is the same one used in "Saving Private Ryan", still on its towing chassis. It fires around 450rds per minute....

the .50cal m2 machine gun used by todays armies fire around 500-600rds per minute... I dont think they have any problems hitting "moving targets". You really dont need 800+ rds per minute to shoot something on the move, unless its an aircraft flying 300mph or more.

[PatrickWR]

The German Flak 38 was the most widely used 20mm gun. This is the same one used in "Saving Private Ryan", still on its towing chassis. It fires around 450rds per minute....

the .50cal m2 machine gun used by todays armies fire around 500-600rds per minute... I dont think they have any problems hitting "moving targets". You really dont need 800+ rds per minute to shoot something on the move, unless its an aircraft flying 300mph or more.

Yeah, a squad of riflemen might only put a few hundred aimed rounds in five minutes, but you can bet they'll be hitting some junk.

Hey Henry, still up for gaming on Tuesday?

[NEVjr]

The German Flak 38 was the most widely used 20mm gun. This is the same one used in "Saving Private Ryan", still on its towing chassis. It fires around 450rds per minute....

the .50cal m2 machine gun used by todays armies fire around 500-600rds per minute... I dont think they have any problems hitting "moving targets". You really dont need 800+ rds per minute to shoot something on the move, unless its an aircraft flying 300mph or more.
im talking about the panzer 2s 20mm, which is only 240 rpm, which is alot less then a 50cal, or the coax mg34. this makes a signifigant difference.

as for a squad of rifles, a rifleman must aim individual rounds, and when you get one shot an then need to load the next round, you need to aim.
for example, in vietnam the amercans gave everyone guns that went full auto, and they shipped in 50000 rounds for each vietcong killed, when you have a full auto rifle, you just spray and pray. when you need to make each shot count, you take time to aim.
its the same with bigger guns, you dont really aim, you fire and correct while firing, so the more rounds you put out, the better.

[Sergeant Rock]

In my opinion (and this is almost across-the-board from Set 1) no armored fighting vehicle should have been released with Defense 2. It is simply too low to represent the armored plates (yes, of varying thicknesses) that shielded the crew. As far as realism goes, yes I understand that heavy machineguns could occasionally penetrate early war tank armor. For the purposes of our collectible miniatures game, this is NOT FUN and makes certain units unplayable.g

Additionally, I still pray for a mobile 20mm crewed cannon in Set 3. The Panzer II's cannon should SHRED infantry. I hate to invoke cinema, but does everyone remember that scene in Saving Private Ryan, where the 20mm chewed up that squad assaulting the Tiger? Ree-diculous.

My group has house-ruled the Panzer II as follows: Defense 3/3, +1 across the board vs. infantry. Makes for a much more effective little tank.


The 20mm German Flak Gun was VERY powerful. It could take care of assaulting infantry easily. I've read of this type of unit taking out a T34 tank
at close range, infantry are mincemeat. The Panzer II in A&AM suffers
from low defense, so PatrickWR's rule makes sense.

[Der Leiter]

This is interesting. I haven't been able to find anyone willing to trade a Panzer II for anything other than rare.
If it is as useless as you guys say, why is it so hard to find?
And not just here....I found one Internet trader out of stock for them!!

While they are bad, they are also still a rare and most people want to get at least a rare in return, even if it's only worth say an uncommon. Then of course there are those that will collect then for historical purposes. I will be keeping mine on the off chance I decide to use it as a mobile MG in a 1940 game since the Germans don't have one available. Of course I'll always end up using 2 SS-PGs over it anyway.

[NEVjr]

The 20mm German Flak Gun was VERY powerful. It could take care of assaulting infantry easily. I've read of this type of unit taking out a T34 tank
at close range, infantry are mincemeat. The Panzer II in A&AM suffers
from low defense, so PatrickWR's rule makes sense.
granted, it can damage armoured vehicals, but it is much easier to hit a tank then an infantryman. if it hits an infantryman it will do alot of damage, so will a sherman 75mm, but that doesnt mean it will hit said infantry

[Sergeant Rock]

granted, it can damage armoured vehicals, but it is much easier to hit a tank then an infantryman. if it hits an infantryman it will do alot of damage, so will a sherman 75mm, but that doesnt mean it will hit said infantry

Typical 'set-up' of a Flak 20mm was to have the gunner, loader,
and Kapo man the vehicle, while the rest of the crew set up a
cross-fire with an MG34 in a concealed location. This is obviously
more effective than an A&AM Panzer II, but still it should get more
defensive rating regardless.

I'm not sure if its so much a matter of an infantyman being hard to
hit as there being nothing in German's psyche that allows his target
to 'get away'. They dont' let you get away, they kill you you twice
to make sure....

[henrym203]

im talking about the panzer 2s 20mm, which is only 240 rpm, which is alot less then a 50cal, or the coax mg34. this makes a signifigant difference.

as for a squad of rifles, a rifleman must aim individual rounds, and when you get one shot an then need to load the next round, you need to aim.
for example, in vietnam the amercans gave everyone guns that went full auto, and they shipped in 50000 rounds for each vietcong killed, when you have a full auto rifle, you just spray and pray. when you need to make each shot count, you take time to aim.
its the same with bigger guns, you dont really aim, you fire and correct while firing, so the more rounds you put out, the better.

Even at 240 rounds per minute your putting 4 rounds a second down the barrel. I really doubt running infantry is a problem. I would have liked to see stats around 10/7/- for the panzer II. Oh well. The US armies Bradley has a 25mm cannon, firing at only 200rds per minute. It was used against soft targets and infantry...if it indeed was unable to hit infantry in the first gulf war, I dont think we would still be using it.

As for having to "spray and pray" with a full auto. That may be what your local ********er does, or use his sideways glock. A FL 5.56 calibre weapon is controllable, but yeah you wont be as accurate if you were firing semi. The reason for the wastefulness in ammunition is not wholely due to issueing weapons that went FL, it also had to due with the enemy, terrain, and training.

[NEVjr]

Even at 240 rounds per minute your putting 4 rounds a second down the barrel. I really doubt running infantry is a problem. I would have liked to see stats around 10/7/- for the panzer II. Oh well. The US armies Bradley has a 25mm cannon, firing at only 200rds per minute. It was used against soft targets and infantry...if it indeed was unable to hit infantry in the first gulf war, I dont think we would still be using it.

As for having to "spray and pray" with a full auto. That may be what your local ********er does, or use his sideways glock. A FL 5.56 calibre weapon is controllable, but yeah you wont be as accurate if you were firing semi. The reason for the wastefulness in ammunition is not wholely due to issueing weapons that went FL, it also had to due with the enemy, terrain, and training.
it may be controllable, that doesnt mean you will controll it when there is a VC that wants to kill you out there

[Raptor]

Sorry gentlemen but the panzer 2 did not have a 20mm autocannon like the flak 38, it was a standard 20mm cannon (ie, fire once, open breach, load, fire again). Also, in regards to the effectiveness of 20mm antiaircraft gun vs infantry consider that standard AA ammo would be contact fused HE rounds.

[henrym203]

Sorry gentlemen but the panzer 2 did not have a 20mm autocannon like the flak 38, it was a standard 20mm cannon (ie, fire once, open breach, load, fire again). Also, in regards to the effectiveness of 20mm antiaircraft gun vs infantry consider that standard AA ammo would be contact fused HE rounds.

Do you have a source/link to confirm? NEVjr is claiming a 240rpm from panzer II. Thanks!

[Andras]

Achtungpanzer says (http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz1.htm)

Panzerkampfwagen II Ausf a/1 to Ausf F were armed with 20mm KwK 30 L/55 automatic cannon (developed from 20mm FlaK 30 anti-aircraft cannon) with rare of fire of 280 rounds per minute and coaxial Rheinmetall-Borsig 7.92mm MG34 machine gun. Cannon was mounted on the left and machine on the right side in the turret. ... Inside the fighting compartment stored were 180 20mm rounds (in 10 round magazines)

character minimum

[richyj1]

Certainly a non-autoload version of the 20mm cannon would explain the lower stats vs. infantry.

Also, it appears I was looking at late-war modifications when I claimed 30mm armor for this tank - more sources seem to have it around 14mm and claim Polish anti-tank rifles could penetrate the front armor - so perhaps a defence value of '2' is warranted.

Relegated to historical scenarios, I'm afraid...

[Y2UAsk]

No it's not even good then. The Renault can just shrug off anything the Panzer II gives it.. while at any range a glancing blow from a Renault destroys the Panzer II... and they're the same points.
Can't address the points issue, but when Germany invaded France, whenever panzers ran up against the much heavier French tanks, they usually had to hole up as best they could and call in the Luftwaffe to deal with the threat. Tank-on-tank battles during that invasion were costly (and educational) for the Germans.

Steve

[Aries]

So you will have to wait for Set III Ju-87 Stukas to take care of the Renaults.

Not a problem!!!!

[Der Leiter]

Can't address the points issue, but when Germany invaded France, whenever panzers ran up against the much heavier French tanks, they usually had to hole up as best they could and call in the Luftwaffe to deal with the threat. Tank-on-tank battles during that invasion were costly (and educational) for the Germans.

Steve

Oh I know it's historically correct, and heck I even still ran 4 Panzer IIs against two Renaults (massacred). It's a playability not historical issue, since with just Set I the Germans don't have much to fight the Renaults with. The sIG has half a chance before it dies, otherwise the best bet seems to be swarm it with infantry.

Set II helps out a lot with Snipers, Panzer IIIs, and Panzer II F's.

The Carro-Armatos can be surprisingly good at destroying Renaults, if they stick around to shoot.

[Joisey]

The one highly specialized use I have found for the panzer II C was to run through hilly terrain in order to attack enemy mortar teams. Since my opponent likes to create fire teams of 2 mortars with an Brit Eng, it's a one way mission. ;>)

[Der Leiter]

The one highly specialized use I have found for the panzer II C was to run through hilly terrain in order to attack enemy mortar teams. Since my opponent likes to create fire teams of 2 mortars with an Brit Eng, it's a one way mission. ;>)

Reminds me of one of the first games we played.. Panzer II was close assaulted by an Engineer. Boom :eek:

[Lynx7725]

Oh I know it's historically correct, and heck I even still ran 4 Panzer IIs against two Renaults (massacred). It's a playability not historical issue, since with just Set I the Germans don't have much to fight the Renaults with. The sIG has half a chance before it dies, otherwise the best bet seems to be swarm it with infantry.

Set II helps out a lot with Snipers, Panzer IIIs, and Panzer II F's.

The Carro-Armatos can be surprisingly good at destroying Renaults, if they stick around to shoot.
Well, I got my Panzer II backsides blown to rat excrement by Renaults too (bloody overconfident HSFs...), but I find PAK38s quite good against the Renault. Least way, somewhat better than sIG33, which I reserve to blow the infantry MG nests to kingdom come.

The PAK38s don't last very long, of course, but usually long enough to kill or dent Renaults, which the SS PzGr can then follow up on.

[dredlox]

Well back to the original question, what good is the panzer 2?

I can actually think of a use for it... Lets say some of the new AT guns from Eastern Front (or future sets) turn out to be good, they are looking at being 14 points or so. Well, the double shot of the pnzr2 means you should always trade it for the at gun. Not a bad trade. You might even get a lucky shot in at someone else.

Also, the pnzr2 can be good for taking out mortars. Mortar + commisar can give fits to even panzergrendaiers.

It is a bad piece for sure though - however I have come to think the 222 is probably even worse. Still it's kind of hard to get I have noticed that as well.

The m13 (carro armato) is awesome however. Who cares if it blows when damaged? Damaged light tanks are worthless anyways. As long as you are going first, you get great stats for a cheap price, and the overlapping fire is actually useful.

[Lynx7725]

Well back to the original question, what good is the panzer 2?

I can actually think of a use for it... Lets say some of the new AT guns from Eastern Front (or future sets) turn out to be good, they are looking at being 14 points or so. Well, the double shot of the pnzr2 means you should always trade it for the at gun. Not a bad trade. You might even get a lucky shot in at someone else.

Also, the pnzr2 can be good for taking out mortars. Mortar + commisar can give fits to even panzergrendaiers.

It is a bad piece for sure though - however I have come to think the 222 is probably even worse. Still it's kind of hard to get I have noticed that as well.
Err. The usual "Opponent must be sleeping" kinda response.. I doubt any Allies player would allow a Panzer II to come within a AT gun without first shooting the Panzer full of holes. The Panzer II simply cannot survive going up against.. well, pretty much any Allies AT gun.

The 222 is better for one reason. Strike and Fade 2. That gives them a big survival advantage over the Panzer II

[fifleche]

speed 5 is also a big asset instead of speed 3, since 5 is superior to most tanks (i.e.: Shermans).

[Frogslayer]

So what can you do, with Pz II C? here´s a list:

1. When you pull a bad rare out of a booster, look at the pz II and take comfort that your new rare at least isn´t as bad as that POS.

2. When it´s killed by a sherman, put some firecrackers in it to make it´s demise more colorful (and permanent).

3. When you´re having sex and need to be cooled down, you can think if it instead of sports.

4. Grind it to powder and put it in somebodys food, pretending you´re a cool assassin, without actually having to kill somebody.

5. Paint it pink and give it to your girlfriend as a christmas gift (Not recomended unless you want to break up).

6. Sue wotc for a million USD due to "psycic torments".

7. Jump on it

8...then sue wotc for another million for an injured foot.

9. If you find somebode easily fooled, trade it for a dougnut.

10. Play with the doughnut in your army, pretending it´s a really big tank with a hole in the middle (which MUST be better than a pz II, and hopefully more tasty too!)

[Lynx7725]

So what can you do, with Pz II C? here´s a list:

1. When you pull a bad rare out of a booster, look at the pz II and take comfort that your new rare at least isn´t as bad as that POS.
... unless the rare you pulled IS the Panzer II Ausf. C.....

7. Jump on it

8...then sue wotc for another million for an injured foot.
Dude, that's a DEF 2, 6/6/4 unit. It isn't going to injure your foot....

[Der Leiter]

Drill some holes through it, and generally make it look damaged. Use it as a terrain piece.

[PatrickWR]

Drill some holes through it, and generally make it look damaged. Use it as a terrain piece.

That's funny... Flames of War actually sells a "Damaged Panzer II" model to be used as terrain for battlefields.

[Der Leiter]

That's funny... Flames of War actually sells a "Damaged Panzer II" model to be used as terrain for battlefields.

Well, if you got one in a booster I suppose it might see more use than the current Panzer II

[henrym203]

I still kick myself for trading hellcats for two of em....not that the hellcat is any better compared to a sherman.

We should reduce the cost point to like....mmm say 5? The 222 costs 8 and is a much better unit.

[Thunderanger]

Both PzIIC and Sd Kfz222 are armed with 1x20mm KwK30 L/55, and 1xMG34, so howcome they have diff Inf Att stats?
Pz II C: 6/6/4
SdKfz 222: 7/6/4

:confused:

I know it's minor but it shows the inconsistency in the stats assigned to different units.

[Joisey]

What about a 1940 scenario where the Germans have the pzr 38(t) (the Romanian tank) and are in hilly terrain? The 38(t)'s keep the Renaults busy and the pzr II can go mortar hunting.

This still requires alot of cooperation on the part of your opponent to leave his mortars undefended---which the unwary might do in copious hilly terrain, forgetting about the pzr II's SA.

[fifleche]

Uhhh... No. Don't forget that as is, mortars in AAM are direct-firing weapons that need LOS to their target, so an SdKfz 222 would still be better to hunt them (quicker, 1 more attack dice at range 1, less cost).

[Joisey]

Uhhh... No. Don't forget that as is, mortars in AAM are direct-firing weapons that need LOS to their target, so an SdKfz 222 would still be better to hunt them (quicker, 1 more attack dice at range 1, less cost).

Uh Oh..... Mortars are NOT indirect fire?????? :eek: WTF?! Guess I've been playing a "house rule" in all my games without realizing it. :( Been playing the Sig 33 that way too.

Isn't it a bit retarded not to allow them to fire out of LOS?

[fifleche]

Uh Oh..... Mortars are NOT indirect fire?????? :eek: WTF?! Guess I've been playing a "house rule" in all my games without realizing it. :( Been playing the Sig 33 that way too.

Isn't it a bit retarded not to allow them to fire out of LOS?LOL! Agreed. Indirect-fire is what's missing the most in this game. Not planes, boats or spaceships.

This is for your "house rule" (http://boards.avalonhill.com/showthread.php?t=7313) :D

[Thunderanger]

The PzII did have a bow machinegun. That could be the difference.

My point is both Pz IIC and SdKfz 222 have the exact same armaments, one 20mm KwK30 L/55, and one MG34, both on the turret, nothing else, therefore their att stats should be identical.

Pz IIC do have Doubleshot and not the SdKfz 222 because the 222 is too busy to "Fade" after the 1st "Strike", that I can understand. :D

[Lynx7725]

One possible reason is that "attack" consists of finding the enemy and THEN zapping him with the magical gun.. it's probably easier to look out of a 222 to see the enemy and then point the gun at him, then out of a battered-down Panzer IIc.

[NEVjr]

No, the PzIIC does NOT have ONE machinegun. It has TWO machineguns. One Turret, One Bow.

the 222 and the PzIIc do NOT have the same weapons outfit.
i would like to see a picture of a panzer 2 with a hull mg, everything i can find shows a turret mg, and no place to mount a bow mg

[Andras]

you know what? I was looking at the PzIII page. I'm sorry about the confusion.

[Joisey]

you know what? I was looking at the PzIII page. I'm sorry about the confusion.

D'OH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DocD]

Hey, I just got 3 Mark II's today!! Finally, I can invade France! Yes, me happy!

[Der Leiter]

Hey, I just got 3 Mark II's today!! Finally, I can invade France! Yes, me happy!

Herr DocD, I'd wait until Panzer III reinforcements become available or your Blitzkrieg will be routed ;)

[Joisey]

Herr DocD, I'd wait until Panzer III reinforcements become available or your Blitzkrieg will be routed ;)

Actually, it would be more historically accurate to use the Romanian R2 as the German Panzer 38(t). There were very few Panzer III's or IV's for the French campaign, and they would have been the pre-F models to boot.

[Thunderanger]

Actually, it would be more historically accurate to use the Romanian R2 as the German Panzer 38(t). There were very few Panzer III's or IV's for the French campaign, and they would have been the pre-F models to boot.

The R-2 L-35 is the Panzer 35(t), not 38(t). The Pz 35 (t) has the 37mm KwK34(t) L/40 main gun, while the Pz 38(t) has the more potent 37mm KwK38(t) L/48.7. They both have 2 MG37(t). The earlier version of 38(t) had similar (almost worst) armor than the 35(t) but later version were up-armored.

External visual differenc include the recoile cylinder on top of the main gun for the 35(t), and the 4 big road wheels on the 38(t) vs. the small road wheels on the 35(t).

I made some cosmetic surgery on the R-2 L-35 Stat card and turned it into a Pz 35(t), you can find it in this thread:
http://boards.avalonhill.com/showthread.php?t=7362

It's a bit blurry, maybe I'll post them separately later so I don't need to compress the image as much.

[Der Leiter]

Actually, it would be more historically accurate to use the Romanian R2 as the German Panzer 38(t). There were very few Panzer III's or IV's for the French campaign, and they would have been the pre-F models to boot.

If they were listed as a '40 unit I might do that, but as is players here will grumble since it's showing as 1941, and not everyone has a strong WWII Historical background.

[Thunderanger]

If they were listed as a '40 unit I might do that, but as is players here will grumble since it's showing as 1941, and not everyone has a strong WWII Historical background.

Both the 35(t) and 38(t) were historically available for the German by 1939.
In set 2, the R-2 L-35 is made to be available for 1941 maybe due to the fact that it is made a Romanian unit and historically, it was available for the Romanian in 1941?

The converted Panzer 35(t) stat card which I made has availability set to 1939.

[Der Leiter]

The converted Panzer 35(t) stat card which I made has availability set to 1939.

I mean no offence, but that doesn't help those playing by the rules, especially if I were to use the scenario for a tournement; which I'm doubtful of right now, since it seems heavily slanted towards the Axis.

[Thunderanger]

I mean no offence, but that doesn't help those playing by the rules, especially if I were to use the scenario for a tournement; which I'm doubtful of right now, since it seems heavily slanted towards the Axis.

Yeah, I know. :( Nothing we can really do about it in an official tournament. I made that stat card for the convenience of private tournament or in general any non-official games which allows house rules. The Pz 35(t) would be crucial for the GE in any 1939 only scenario, before we actually have Pz 38(t).

[fifleche]

I mean no offence, but that doesn't help those playing by the rules, especially if I were to use the scenario for a tournement; which I'm doubtful of right now, since it seems heavily slanted towards the Axis.You mean slanted towards the ALLIES, no? :confused:

[Photoner Hawkwind]

I've found that my Panzer II is very effective against opponents armed only with Bananas. If your opponents have pointed sticks or anything stronger, I would refer to Frogslayer's list.

[Aries]

My opponents throw the banana peel under the Panzer II tracks and cause them to veer out of control. I only use them against players that make guns with their hands and say "Bang, bang".

[BoosterJunkie]

I only use them against players that make guns with their hands and say "Bang, bang".

Just watch out for the guy who stomps around muttering "Tank... tank... tank..."

[Joisey]

The R-2 L-35 is the Panzer 35(t), not 38(t). The Pz 35 (t) has the 37mm KwK34(t) L/40 main gun, while the Pz 38(t) has the more potent 37mm KwK38(t) L/48.7. They both have 2 MG37(t). The earlier version of 38(t) had similar (almost worst) armor than the 35(t) but later version were up-armored.

External visual differenc include the recoile cylinder on top of the main gun for the 35(t), and the 4 big road wheels on the 38(t) vs. the small road wheels on the 35(t).

I made some cosmetic surgery on the R-2 L-35 Stat card and turned it into a Pz 35(t), you can find it in this thread:
http://boards.avalonhill.com/showthread.php?t=7362

It's a bit blurry, maybe I'll post them separately later so I don't need to compress the image as much.

Thanks for the info. My Bad! :D

[richyj1]

My opponents throw the banana peel under the Panzer II tracks and cause them to veer out of control
Not so! The "Excelent Suspension" SA causes it to roll over the banana peels with ease!

Of course, if the banana peel hits in mid-air it has decent chance of penetrating the front armor...