Sherman Swarm, Croc whats the big deal????

[Darth Nazi]

So Im hearing that the Sherman swarm and the Croc are the big whoop de doos and how really nothing on the axis side can combat it. Plus how the allies side is soooo much better when it comes to armor comparatively to the axis.

Has there really been a good debate on this and why it is so or not?

[Lynx7725]

Ask the Doc, XAos or Kriegshund. I'm pretty sure they can give you a detailed breakdown of why and how percentage-wise the Allied units are much better.

Personally I'll just steer clear of such topics. The term "deceased equine" comes to mind.

[Dr.Cornelius]

Play the game and find out. Germany has several problems, none of which is insurmountable:

1. Allied armor starts 5 hexes in, moves 4+ speed and has a point advantage in close range encounters. You do the math.

2. The start positions, small map size and crowded LOS blocking terrain make the 21 point Sherman approximately as combat effective as a 30 point Panzer IV a.G in many encounters.

3. Compare the 32 point SS-Panzer IV a.F2 to the Guards T-34/85.

4. AAM has a R-P-S element. There are very few armor units that are effective against both armor and infantry, and the US has most of them.

5. AAM is a game of special abilities. The US/UK has the majority of over-the-top SAs.

Here are some armies to try:

35 Croc
52 Veteran Rhino x2
11 Screaming Eagles Capt

52 Veteran Rhino x2
21 Sherman
15 Stuart
11 SE Capt

81 SE Paratroopers x9
11 SE Capt
08 Humber

Notes:
In a timed tournament play point-denial with armor units. Kill any opposing unit (usually infantry), then use LOS blocking terrain to avoid engagement for the rest of the match. At worst the game will go 6-7 turns in 60 minutes forcing one Rhino to contest the objective in the assault phase. It is cheesy, but play the clock and play for points.

Crocodile: use the Shermans as "bodyguards" and move the Croc every phase to avoid LOS to enemy armor and AT guns. Refuse to engage until opposing armor is obliged to contest the objective, then engage with the Flamethrower at close range for a 37% auto-kill shot. At worst the Croc will end up damaged, and gets another 37% shot. Note that with 6 rear armor the Croc is virtually immune to close assault by non-AT infantry.

Veteran Rhino: keep the Rhino in cover at all times if possible. If an infantry units gets into the Rhino's hex simply move away and take the defensive fire close assault. Remember- the Rhino cannot be immobilized by disruption and does not suffer the -1 penalty. The Rhino is virtually immune to close assault.

SE Capt: SE Capt adds +3 initiative even when off board, so keep him safely off board until required to swing the game.

Once you have mastered the above armies, come back and learn how to abuse the BAR+Halftrack, Sniper & Headshot.

[XAos]

A casual comparisson of the sherman & pzkw-IV shows the sherman to be too cheap (by a lot). And since the sherman (and croc's) advantage was greatest at short range, the resulting tactic was named "sherman-swarm".
A rigourous analysis of the actual probabilities (which took longer to program) confirms the shermans advantage and proves that it applies against any axis tank.
Back in set-1 the germans had a compensating advantage; i.e. The superior initiative of the SS-Hauptsturmfuhrer. Even with that initiative advantage, play experience suggested that the axis armour had a less than even chance against shermans/crocs. With set-2 the SE-captain eliminated the axis initiative advantage Which effectivly made all set-1 axis units obsolete, since they no longer have the initiative advantage which they needed just for parity in set-1.

[Dr.Cornelius]

I agree completely. Initiative is the key to winning armor engagements and was one of the few German advantages. Now the allies have a leader that not only has +3 initiative but also cannot be attacked when off board.

[Der Panzinator]

Perhaps a "bid" is in the works here...

After all that is what levels the playing field in most all of the A&A boardgames. :rolleyes:

I would say that starting out with a +10 points to Axis and then go from there.

[crash beedo]

A real simple house-rule, making vehicles start the game on the map edge, actually goes a long way to improve some of the imbalance issues. (Doc's point #2). This would be easy to add to the DCI floor rules too, I don't see why they don't do it. I know SW Minis has been modified this way to make a better game, don't know enough about D&D Minis.

Allied tanks are still very efficient and effective vs both infantry and armor (which opens up other problems in terms of Roshambo), but at least it gives longer range units a chance to have a long-range engagement before dealing with 4 Shermans at medium.

The Croc-turtle strategy is a whole 'nother problem...

[Darth Nazi]

Well while the whole deal is about a supposed Swarm of Shermans and the flame belching Croc right?

If we talk specifically about the Germans yea they don't stand up because their tanks are just too overpriced for what they have to offer. Nice big guns but nice big price too.

Has anyone looked into the fact about A Ho-Ni and Arisaka swarm in itself also?

7 Ho-Ni 84pts
5 Arisaka 15 pts

Or

6 Ho-Ni 72 pts
9 Arisaka 27 pts


Sure the "Rhino's" are great and all but you have to figure that with 100pt skirmish if an allied team is gonna run 3 at most Shermans.

I have run 6-7 Ho-ni tanks along with a support of 5-9 Arisaka in 100pt games. I know Im gonna trade off enough where most if not all of his tanks will be gone while I will have acouple left standing unless I play real stupid.

As far as the Croc goes Sure it has alot of armor but the same idea goes. Run 3 Ho-ni's up next to it and he's only gonna attack one of my tanks while Im throwing between 33-39 dice against his armor with multiple attacks.

Sure it sounds like a suicide mission but isn't that what the Japanese were all about?

[Dr.Cornelius]

Darth- as in most games it is possible to build a "hate" army which will do well against the Sherman Swarm. The problem is that the Ho-Ni swarm performs poorly against most other armies and is an auto-loss against any decent army with around 30-40% infantry.

For example, Dual Pz IV is a pretty decent reference army:

32 SS-Pz IV a. F2
30 Panzer IV a. G
07 Hauptsturmführer
30 SS-Panzergrenadiers x6

Again, one of the key factors that makes the Sherman/Stuart/Croc so strong is that these are multi-use vehicles that are effective against both vehicles and infantry. So far the axis has no vehicles that meet this criteria, and only two infantry: SS-PG and WE Sniper.